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Episode: Advice Line with Norma Kamali of Norma Kamali

Author: Guy Raz | Wondery
Duration: 00:50:29

Episode Shownotes

Iconic fashion designer Norma Kamali joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three early stage founders. Plus, Norma shares her take on balancing a strong creative vision with the financial realities of building a worldwide brand. First we meet Ahmed in the U.K,, who’s refining a

narrative for his eyeglass store concept in hopes of attracting investors. Then Bob in Chicago, who wants to change how people view lunch with his fast casual soup restaurants. And Adreana in Sacramento, who’s wondering if outside investment is the best way to scale her inclusive activewear business. Thank you to the founders of Cambridge Spectacle Company, Sunny Bowls and the Love Her Shop for being part of the show.If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298.And be sure to listen to Norma Kamali’s founding story as told by Norma on the show in 2021. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neal Rauch. You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram and sign up for Guy’s free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Summary

In this episode of 'How I Built This,' Guy Raz speaks with fashion designer Norma Kamali, who shares her journey of building a global brand while maintaining creative integrity. She offers insights to entrepreneurs Ahmed, Bob, and Adriana, emphasizing the importance of merging creative vision with business acumen, developing a unique brand narrative, and targeting the right demographics. Kamali's advice on partnerships, funding, and effective marketing strategies provides valuable guidance for those navigating the complex landscape of entrepreneurship.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Advice Line with Norma Kamali of Norma Kamali) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

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Learn more at klaviyo.com. Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges.

00:03:29 Speaker_11
Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show.

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Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com and make sure to tell us how to reach you.

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00:04:17 Speaker_11
Joining me this week is fashion designer, legendary fashion designer, Norma Kamali. Norma, welcome back to the show.

00:04:24 Speaker_04
I'm happy to be back.

00:04:26 Speaker_11
It's so great to have you back on the show. You were first on How I Built This in 2021. And of course, you told the story of how you built your hugely influential fashion business.

00:04:36 Speaker_11
And of course, if those of you listening have not yet heard that story, please check out our feed. We've just posted the original episode and we'll also put a link in the description. It is such an amazing story.

00:04:47 Speaker_11
But basically, in the 60s, Norma was working

00:04:51 Speaker_11
as an airline clerk and then using her employee discount to fly to London and then buy up clothes, sort of secondhand clothes there, and then opened a store in New York to sell them, eventually started designing your own clothing.

00:05:04 Speaker_11
And you created all these iconic pieces, Farrah Fawcett's red swimsuit, the sleeping bag jacket, and really built one of the first great American brands. And let me just say it again, Norma, you are a legend.

00:05:21 Speaker_11
eight decades of life, and you are still actively running your brand out of New York City today.

00:05:27 Speaker_04
Yep. Yes, very actively and enjoying every minute of it. I feel privileged to have a creative life. I'm very lucky.

00:05:38 Speaker_11
And total inspiration, Norma, you really are. We have a bunch of early stage founders here ready to jump on. But before they do, if you'll indulge me, I've got a couple of questions for you before we bring them on. So

00:05:52 Speaker_11
You know, you really built your brand on designs that stood out in part because they were so different. They were kind of weird at the time. But just because customers love a product. Right. And they love and loved yours.

00:06:07 Speaker_11
It doesn't always mean that that the business is profitable. There was a point in your journey where you were really hot in the New York fashion world, but you guys were having trouble paying the rent. I remember you telling us a story. Yeah.

00:06:20 Speaker_11
How do you turn customer love and satisfaction and buzz around your brand into growth, into profitability?

00:06:29 Speaker_04
Well, I think a lot of creative people believe they're not good at business. And I believe that that's not true. I think it's something we've been fed to believe. And I think the more you can learn about business,

00:06:49 Speaker_04
And maybe it's by having really good mentors. I was very fortunate to have incredible advice throughout my career and learning as much as I could about how to look at

00:07:06 Speaker_04
where I needed help in the business, how I needed to evaluate sales versus productivity, and also how to maximize the opportunity of the attention you're getting from the press. And that's as important as the creative concept storytelling.

00:07:30 Speaker_11
Norma, your, you know, your brand was and is your vision, right? And I think a lot of entrepreneurs can identify with that, right, that feeling.

00:07:41 Speaker_11
But at a certain point, certainly in your industry, to become a global brand, you often have to partner with bigger companies, right? You worked with, with Walmart, you worked with, you did a lot of interesting things.

00:07:54 Speaker_11
So how do you protect your vision when you start to do things like you know, work with partners, with bigger partners.

00:08:04 Speaker_04
That's the big challenge. And I still am the sole owner of my company, which tells you I really like to control the fit and the quality of the product. But I was copied a lot.

00:08:20 Speaker_04
And I wasn't making money because other people were making money from my designs. And when I knew I did a collection that I felt was strong, I partnered with Jones Apparel.

00:08:34 Speaker_04
And it was a huge success because I had the ability to use their manufacturing and distribution and sales with my designs and sort of storytelling. And the combination was incredibly profitable for everyone.

00:08:56 Speaker_04
By doing that, it gave me exposure and the ability to do many other things and also go to sleep at night knowing I could pay the rent, finally.

00:09:09 Speaker_11
Yeah. I love it. All right, Norma, why don't we bring in our first caller? Great. Let's bring caller number one on to the show. Welcome to The Advice Line. You are on with

00:09:20 Speaker_11
Me and Norma Kamali, please introduce yourself, tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business, and we'll take it from there. Amazing. Okay. Welcome to the show, Ahmed, and thank you for calling in.

00:09:46 Speaker_11
So you have a, is it like a, are you an optometrist? Do you do like eye exams and sell glasses? I see. Okay. Now I'm starting to make sense.

00:10:33 Speaker_11
You're basically trying to model your business off of Warby Parker in the US, like basically high designs, high end quality designs, but at a lower price point.

00:10:45 Speaker_06
Yeah, exactly. So for me, Warby, when those guys did what they did, I was just sort of qualifying from university, and I thought it was game-changing. And I didn't quite understand why we didn't have something similar in the UK.

00:10:58 Speaker_06
And we weren't celebrating British Airware. We know we've got Oakley and Ray-Ban as American companies, and there's a lot of Scandinavian companies out there.

00:11:07 Speaker_06
But I felt that there really needed to be, hopefully one day, a global British Airware brand that dominates.

00:11:14 Speaker_11
And presumably Warby Parker doesn't operate. I think they only operate in the US, right?

00:11:19 Speaker_06
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So I did send them an email in 2015 and I said to them, to the customer service, I'd love to start this in the UK, but I didn't hear back. So I thought, well, I better start this myself.

00:11:33 Speaker_11
Nice. Well, I'm sure you heard our episode with Warby Parker, with Neil Blumenthal.

00:11:36 Speaker_06
Both of them.

00:11:37 Speaker_11
Yeah. Yeah. And amazing story. OK, so what's the vision here? The vision presumably is to try and scale this thing.

00:11:45 Speaker_06
Yeah. So so look, we're opening a second store in London in the next week or so.

00:11:50 Speaker_06
So so we've just acquired a store there and we've acquired that customer database and all the frames are going to be, you know, changed to to Cambridge Spectacle co-frames. And then we're in negotiations right now to open a third store in Birmingham.

00:12:05 Speaker_06
So the goal is three sites by the end of this year.

00:12:08 Speaker_11
How are you financing all this?

00:12:10 Speaker_06
Well, it's part of my question, but we're sort of angel investor backed. So a friend of mine, he sort of said, how much do you need to get going? And I had no money, but I had a deal on the table with Asda Opticians. I didn't tell them I had no money.

00:12:26 Speaker_06
And my friend, I told him I needed 150,000 pounds to get going. And he fortunately said, I'll do you the full amount, Ahmed, because I know you and I trust you. So he kicked us off.

00:12:38 Speaker_06
And then we did a little bit of crowdfunding as well via a European crowd equity platform.

00:12:43 Speaker_11
I got a bunch of questions for you, but before I do that, I want to hear what your question is for us today.

00:12:49 Speaker_06
Yeah. So look, I think, you know, that customer proposition is strong and, you know, customers seem to love our brand. But the question really is, how do we get that same kind of excitement around the brand across to investors?

00:13:03 Speaker_06
Because it's very difficult when you're in a pitch and you've got, you know, five, 10 minutes and they're seeing pitch after pitch as angels or VC for them to fall in love with your brand.

00:13:14 Speaker_06
you know, how are we really going to be able to translate that love and show them not just the financials, but, hey, this is going to be big, you know, customers love this.

00:13:22 Speaker_11
How do you generate the buzz to attract investors? Just out of curiosity, what's your revenue right now?

00:13:29 Speaker_06
So we're doing about, in the store, about 20,000 pounds to 25,000 pounds, about 30 to $35,000 a month. That's in the first year.

00:13:38 Speaker_11
That's great. Okay. So you're looking at three to 350,000, maybe 400,000 revenue this year. Let me bring in Norma Kamali. Norma, I have a lot of questions. You may have questions for Ahmed. Go. Let's hear your thoughts.

00:13:52 Speaker_04
Well, I think the first question I have is, what makes you different other than your ambition to use your reputation and your history and value? But it really takes a lot more to sell someone, and it

00:14:18 Speaker_04
It has to be done maybe in a sentence or two and no more. So what is different about your product or your approach to marketing your product that would make me want to invest in your potential success?

00:14:43 Speaker_06
Yeah. So, I mean, I think from a customer point of view, we always tell them how our designs are inspired by Cambridge and made by us rather than any designer label.

00:14:53 Speaker_11
When you say Cambridge, like the town of Cambridge, the city, the university, the sort of aura of that town.

00:15:00 Speaker_06
Yeah, exactly. So I lived there for a while and my brother who helped out is an MBA from the university. And so we will always discuss with the patients the fact that all the glasses are inspired by that city named after roads, places in that city.

00:15:16 Speaker_06
And that's what customers seem to be responding well to. And then also we give a portion of our profits to iResearch as well.

00:15:23 Speaker_06
But I think, Norma, this is where I struggle that if I gave that across to an investor, it's probably not the thing that excites them. Or maybe it is. Maybe I'm just not explaining it and they would be excited by that.

00:15:37 Speaker_04
Well, I must say, I now think, oh, this is interesting. It's a very authentic British brand that has the character of history and quality just by that reference.

00:15:54 Speaker_04
And the idea of your contributing to the health and well-being of eye care was very nice and very a sign of goodwill on top of this classic British history that you're basing the brand on.

00:16:11 Speaker_04
So those two points definitely have more of my interest than the idea of the name and you're opening different, you know, brick-and-mortar locations. First, knowing that history and the reference definitely raises interest.

00:16:32 Speaker_11
You know, it's interesting because I'm looking at your website here and your question is, how do we generate more buzz around the story?

00:16:39 Speaker_11
And the story is, if the story is Cambridge, like the university, the aura of that place, I'm not seeing enough of that. What Warby Parker did really well was, first of all, it's an invented name, right?

00:16:51 Speaker_11
And they took two names from Jack Kerouac books and put them together, but then they named their glasses. They gave each pair of glasses, each design, like an interesting name. Like, is there a world where could you

00:17:02 Speaker_11
I'm just looking at like the list of graduates of the University of Cambridge. I mean, could you call one like George V, you know, a pair of glasses called the Cornwall? Yeah. Here you go, Pitt the Younger. I love it.

00:17:15 Speaker_11
There's all these people who, Nehru, Nehru went to Cambridge. Could you call a pair of the Nehrus? I mean, it just seems like there's a way to connect it more closely Because for most people, Cambridge is is the university, right?

00:17:29 Speaker_11
Maybe even make like a pair called like the Philbys, right? Because those spies went there. To me, if the story is about Britain, Cambridge, you got to lean into that more before you're going to really be able to get people excited about it.

00:17:44 Speaker_06
Yeah, no, I think, Guy, that's an incredible approach and idea. You know, Prince, I think, was named when we designed that after Prince Charles at the time, who's now King Charles, because he went to the University of Cambridge.

00:17:55 Speaker_06
But you wouldn't really know that looking at it, right? So I think, yeah, we must do better at that.

00:18:03 Speaker_06
And if that's what generates the buzz, and as Norma says, if you are excited by the fact that it's linked so heavily to Cambridge, then that's a great idea. Yeah.

00:18:14 Speaker_11
Norma, the other thing I'm wondering about is, like in fashion, right? The trick is to get the cool kids to wear your stuff.

00:18:21 Speaker_11
Like the other thing Warby Parker did is they found the cool kids who are frugal, who didn't have money, but could wear their glasses. Those are the people they got those glasses on, right? Norma, I mean, it's the same in fashion, right?

00:18:37 Speaker_04
Yeah. I've been thinking from the beginning of the conversation, Well, what's the demographic? We know if you have a great price, you can have a younger demographic.

00:18:49 Speaker_04
And I think having some sort of an interaction with the clients to take pictures of themselves, put it on social media, wearing your glasses, and also How many things can you do with those glasses? They can obviously be prescription.

00:19:11 Speaker_04
I use mine for my computer where I have a soft tint, but I also have sunglass versions of my prescription. So I think having, you know, really rolling out all the possibilities and looking at marketing it through actual evolution of your client base.

00:19:34 Speaker_06
Yeah, I think that's a good idea.

00:19:36 Speaker_06
I mean, when we started the brand, we had to think about the audience and, you know, older, young, and whilst we knew older people would buy varifocals and bifocals, and they would be ultimately more expensive and more profitable, we decided that, well, if you build a brand for younger people, the older people will come.

00:19:52 Speaker_06
But if you build a brand for older people, the younger people won't come to it, right?

00:19:56 Speaker_06
So yeah, I think we do need to go back to making sure that we get the younger people in to promote the brand, as I say Warby did, yeah, which would be a great idea.

00:20:06 Speaker_11
You know, there's an episode of the show we did maybe a year or two ago on Mod Pizza. And actually the founders were on the advice line a couple of months ago.

00:20:15 Speaker_11
And what's cool, you should listen to that episode because their first business that they started was called Seattle Coffee Company. And they started it in a kiosk at Covent Garden. And they saw what was happening with Starbucks in the U.S. at the time.

00:20:29 Speaker_11
And this was in the 90s. They saw Starbucks was growing so fast. They decided to replicate that model in the UK. They were two Americans, Ali and Scott Svensson.

00:20:39 Speaker_11
And they very quickly found investors to scale Seattle Coffee Company and just build and they built like 50 locations across the UK in just a matter of a few years. And then, of course, they Starbucks came in and bought it.

00:20:55 Speaker_11
and converted them all to Starbucks, which was a great outcome for everybody.

00:20:59 Speaker_11
To me, there's a world where something like that could happen, you know, where a world where Warby Parker decides to go to the UK, you know, but but to get that kind of money and to build that scale quickly, back to your question, you've got to just get your story down because because you have all the the fundamentals, the foundation there.

00:21:22 Speaker_11
It's just now really chiseling away and getting it right.

00:21:28 Speaker_06
Yeah, I mean, look, getting to 50 stores is, you know, my ambition is to get to 100 stores. And if Warby Parker or someone comes along, we'd be happy to talk at that point.

00:21:38 Speaker_06
We have actually spoken to a big British VC here in the UK, and they have said that get to five stores, and we will look at backing you to get to 20 with, you know, a few million pounds. But we had a connection to that investor at that VC firm.

00:21:53 Speaker_06
So he's been great and he's been monitoring our progress. But it's just making sure that the other VCs do follow on in that round as well and having that kind of growth story that Warby had in America.

00:22:03 Speaker_11
Yeah. It's awesome. Awesome idea. Op-Eddy Jazz. Thanks so much. The brand is called Cambridge Spectacle. Good luck.

00:22:11 Speaker_04
Good luck. Good luck to you.

00:22:12 Speaker_11
Nice to meet you both. Thank you. Thanks so much for the advice. That's great. I mean, he's got like Cromwell's. I'm looking at this list. He's got the Nehru's. So much fun. Walpole's.

00:22:25 Speaker_04
Yeah.

00:22:25 Speaker_11
He just has to name after people that have been long dead.

00:22:28 Speaker_04
I think he has to focus on the story and creating a buzz before he opens more stores. I think getting really grounding that message, true British character and fun.

00:22:47 Speaker_11
Yeah. And I mean, the thing about the UK is that it's the total addressable market there is still significant, right? Population, 65 million. Yeah, it's a big I mean, it's a you can build a huge brand just in the UK.

00:22:59 Speaker_11
Yeah, not you can't do that in every European country. It's not easy to do that in like, you know, Liechtenstein. But you can do that in the UK.

00:23:07 Speaker_04
Yeah.

00:23:09 Speaker_11
Stay with us because after the break, we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab.

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00:25:42 Speaker_11
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. And my guest today is fashion designer Norma Kamali. Norma, what do you say? Should we take another call?

00:25:51 Speaker_04
I think so. Lots of fun.

00:25:54 Speaker_11
Hello, caller, please join us. Welcome to the device line. You are on with me. Norma Kamali, tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just very briefly about your business.

00:26:04 Speaker_12
I'm Bob Wolkoff from Chicago, big fan of the show. Sunny Bowls, which I'm the founder of, is a new category in the fast, casual restaurant industry where soup is the star of the menu. Our goal is to become the sweet green of soup.

00:26:20 Speaker_11
I love it. Bob, welcome to the show. Thank you for calling in the sweet green of soup. That's very clear. I can already imagine exactly what you're trying to do. So you've got one shop in Chicago right now?

00:26:33 Speaker_12
We have two, one at the Merchandise Mart and one at Northwestern Hospital.

00:26:37 Speaker_11
When did you start this? When did you launch this brand?

00:26:40 Speaker_12
Well, I started it when COVID was still a thing toward the end of it and I'm a contrarian and just believe that if I started when all the restaurants were closing and I could build brand and start to learn a business that I didn't know, that's what I did.

00:26:56 Speaker_11
I love it. Were you in food at the time? I mean, was that your background?

00:27:01 Speaker_12
My whole career was in real estate and I had this idea when I was in my 20s and I finally decided to open it when I was 58.

00:27:11 Speaker_11
I love it. So really starting from scratch at 50A, we just did a great episode about Lily's Chocolates and Cynthia Tice was 57 when she started that brand. So you open the first location, you've got two now and it's soup, basically.

00:27:26 Speaker_11
That's what you tell?

00:27:28 Speaker_12
So soup is the star. So if you picture an ice cream store, but instead of ice cream, we have 10 soups that were actually designed by a James Beard award-winning chef.

00:27:39 Speaker_11
Nice.

00:27:40 Speaker_12
And you pair it or you can pair it with a sandwich or one of our salads. And in lieu of cold soup, we've designed a unique line of smoothie bowls, which actually have an ice cream like texture, but are healthy.

00:27:56 Speaker_12
It's like eating a healthy ice cream and that's designed for the summer months.

00:28:00 Speaker_11
Got it. Okay. And, and what's your, um, what's, what's your question for us?

00:28:04 Speaker_12
So my question is that, so people love, they crave our soup after they try us, and we have a 4.9 star rating on Google, but there is a resistance to getting not the first adopters, but people that when they think of going to lunch, they think of Mexican, they think of hamburgers, they think of a salad, they don't think of soup.

00:28:30 Speaker_12
And the other thing is when you're competing against brands that are already well known, that we are not top of mind. And so my question is, how do we continue to acquire new customers?

00:28:42 Speaker_11
How do you break through? Right. Oh, yeah. All right. Norma. Thoughts for for Bob, questions for Bob.

00:28:51 Speaker_04
The first thing I'm thinking is, what is the value added? Is there nutritional value? Do you have information about the ingredients?

00:29:03 Speaker_04
Is it something that's efficient for, especially for women or men who are working out and they want to keep their... Protein. Yeah, high protein and really low carbs. I love soup. But I always, I want to know the value of the calories I'm eating.

00:29:27 Speaker_04
What will the takeaway be?

00:29:29 Speaker_12
So just to give you an idea, we had one customer who went to their dietician and said, you can eat everything in the store. We actually have one soup that's a wellness soup.

00:29:40 Speaker_12
But all of our soups are gluten-free, dairy-free, with a lot of vegan options. We have 10 soups, five of them are meat, four chicken and one delicious chili, and then five that are vegetarian.

00:29:56 Speaker_12
The reason I said sweet green is because I do look at us as in the healthy fast-casual sector.

00:30:04 Speaker_04
The nutrition, I think, is everything. And I think really promoting... So many people take supplements for good health.

00:30:14 Speaker_04
And if they know that in the soup, they're going to get that nutrition and have a tasty kind of lunch at the same time, that's just a bonus.

00:30:27 Speaker_11
Bob, I'm curious. Your question is, how do I get people to think of soup as a meal? And I imagine that Really, it's a lunch, the lunchtime crowd that you want to focus on. And I'm looking at your website. Very nice.

00:30:40 Speaker_11
I love the graphics and the drawings and designs. But there's two things I don't see here. I don't see ingredients, which I think would be really great to put on there just, you know, because I'm assuming they're clean, simple ingredients.

00:30:51 Speaker_11
You're using vegetables and broths. The second thing is, Is there a world and these are these and you know, this is a guy who's been around in business for a long time.

00:31:01 Speaker_11
Sometimes a slogan or or a mantra or a mission statement can be transformational when everyone can gather around a shared common definition of what you're doing.

00:31:13 Speaker_11
And I I wonder if there's a world where you put something under Sunny Bowles instead of superfood that says, you know, a new way to lunch or a new way to think about. Yeah, you're like your meal.

00:31:26 Speaker_12
One of the things we're trying to do also, like on our Instagram, is have three kind of pillars, one healthy, two delicious and three. We're trying to create kind of a humorous brand. to get people to connect.

00:31:42 Speaker_12
So, you know, I think of Geico and doing things that get people to wanna view us and so forth.

00:31:51 Speaker_11
To me, it seems like the opportunity is in a breakthrough product, like, or a breakthrough delivery mechanism where people start to talk about one thing that you're doing that then brings other people in.

00:32:08 Speaker_11
So here's my idea, Norma, I want to I want to get your sense and give me real feedback. Don't just say I love the idea, because if it's a stupid idea, tell me it's a stupid idea.

00:32:17 Speaker_11
But you know how how people walk, how people consume coffee today, right? They get a cup of coffee at Starbucks and they walk down the street with it. They're they're drinking the Starbucks coffee.

00:32:28 Speaker_11
What if there was like a pureed soup, like a sipping soup that you serve in like a to go coffee cup with your logo on it and you kind of market it as a grab and go?

00:32:39 Speaker_12
Well, it's funny because one of the ideas I've had for the store is, you know, when Panera, you have the push for the coffee, but instead of coffee, we have different bone broth. So you drink that as your... Are you doing that?

00:32:53 Speaker_12
My operations person is fighting me on it.

00:32:56 Speaker_11
But you haven't started doing that yet?

00:32:58 Speaker_12
No, we have not started doing that.

00:32:59 Speaker_11
Bone broth. Norma, bone broth. Bone broth is no collagen. It's a hot thing. People love bone broth.

00:33:08 Speaker_04
Yeah. There's a brand in the U.S. in New York that did a very successful bone broth presentation. However, in the summer months, they fell apart, and they couldn't carry it as busy as they were in the winter. But I think the idea of having a cup

00:33:33 Speaker_04
that really says I am drinking soup and it's from this place and and that it's bold and beautiful. I love that idea.

00:33:45 Speaker_11
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think about the thing that Norma talked about with protein. To me, we hear it time and again. protein is where this is going. Everybody is building protein, but not everybody, but lots of people are building protein brands.

00:34:01 Speaker_11
And I, uh, and Norma, you, you've written about this. You are, by the way, Bob, Norma is one of the foremost experts, really, truly experts on aging nutrition in America. And Norma, you, you're on this protein thing, right?

00:34:15 Speaker_11
But this is a big part of you, of how you, and it's not like you're eating steaks and chops every night, but, but it's, it's a quality protein.

00:34:23 Speaker_04
Right. Protein, I think, is really looked at now very carefully in building strength, muscle mass. And for me, it's very hard to get that protein in because I don't eat meat.

00:34:41 Speaker_04
But if I can get protein in any way, I'll have soup and vegetables and anything else, protein powders that can even be added to the soups. I think there's so much opportunity there.

00:34:56 Speaker_11
I think that there's one other idea I have for you, one other slogan. Your grandmother was right. Something like that.

00:35:03 Speaker_12
I love it.

00:35:05 Speaker_11
I love it.

00:35:05 Speaker_12
We have a Bobby's chicken soup.

00:35:07 Speaker_11
Perfect. Oh, maybe under there you say your grandmother was right.

00:35:10 Speaker_04
I love it. Yes.

00:35:11 Speaker_11
Because soup, nourishing, nutritious, filled with vitamins. You know, it's some way to get across the idea that you're in one quick, efficient delivery mechanism. You're getting pretty much everything you need for that meal.

00:35:30 Speaker_04
Yeah.

00:35:31 Speaker_11
Bob, I'm going to come to Chicago once your new slogan is out. This is a new way to eat lunch. I'm going to say, it's me, Bob. And I want my bowl of chili.

00:35:41 Speaker_12
You're more than welcome. Love to have you.

00:35:44 Speaker_11
All right. Bob Wolkoff, Sunny Bowls. Good luck. Congrats. Thanks for calling in.

00:35:47 Speaker_04
Lots of luck, Bob. Good luck. Yeah.

00:35:51 Speaker_11
I mean, so you don't do bone broth, right? Because you're vegetarian.

00:35:55 Speaker_04
I have started bone broth, but I, there are other broths that are vegetable broths and some, I'm just started eating chicken. I have to say it's been a struggle.

00:36:07 Speaker_11
It's just because it's gross to you?

00:36:09 Speaker_04
Yeah. As long as it's not recognizable, there's sort of kebabs and things like that that I can deal with.

00:36:16 Speaker_11
But I mean, as you know, I eat meat, but I love tofu. I think tofu is a great protein source. Beans, great protein source.

00:36:22 Speaker_04
Yeah, absolutely. For me, it's probably where I get most of my protein.

00:36:29 Speaker_11
Norma, I wish people listening could see you right now, because I'm is, you know, I'm 50. You're my model. I want to be you. That's what I want to be. I mean, you're you you're physically fit. You're energetic. You're beautiful.

00:36:44 Speaker_11
You're just you've got all these incredible energy ideas. I mean, how do how do we get there? What's the fountain of youth? What's the secret?

00:36:54 Speaker_04
I think, you know, in the world we live in now, there's so much really good information on healthy lifestyle and the ability to change habits to more positive, proactive,

00:37:11 Speaker_04
aging with power attitudes and learning something new every day and really keep moving. All of that is where everybody is going. And you're an example of what that lets you are.

00:37:26 Speaker_11
But how do you stay? I mean, I think a big part of it, Norma, isn't just what you eat and your exercise, but your outlook. How do you? I mean, I think part of it's just you're just wired that way. You're just positive. You're wired that way. But

00:37:40 Speaker_11
It's a practice too, right?

00:37:41 Speaker_04
Yeah, I think so. And one of the things that I realize is, and that was pointed out to me by Marty, is that he says, you know, you wake up every morning

00:38:01 Speaker_04
no matter how bad the day before was, as if everything is okay, and I look at it as, well, I have a new start, I have a new chance to try it again, and not sort of hang in the dreary feeling of the day before.

00:38:21 Speaker_04
And I think that that's important, to really clean the slate, take another look at it, and give it another shot.

00:38:30 Speaker_11
Okay, next up after the break, another caller with another business challenge. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.

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00:40:50 Speaker_11
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking your calls with Norma Kamali. So Norma, let's get right back into it and take another call.

00:41:00 Speaker_04
I'm looking forward to, yes.

00:41:03 Speaker_11
Welcome to The Advice Line. You are on with Norma Kamali. Please introduce yourself. Tell us where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.

00:41:11 Speaker_00
Hi there, Norma. Hi there, Guy. My name is Adriana Alvarez. I'm calling from Sacramento, California. I am the owner and the founder of lovehershop.com. We are an athleisure brand and we are best known for our leggings. We do bring affordable

00:41:28 Speaker_00
products to the market, high-quality products that women would typically want to see at a better price.

00:41:37 Speaker_11
Awesome. Well, thanks for calling in. So, Adriana, tell us a little bit more about, it's activewear, apparel, like stuff you'd wear to work out, basically?

00:41:47 Speaker_00
Yeah, definitely. It's all workout apparel and all of our products are designed and engineered in-house by our all-women team.

00:41:55 Speaker_00
Um, and these leggings, um, they came about to the market after, um, I had an experience with a pair of leggings, um, that were gifted to me that were from a very well-known brand. They were very expensive. They were over a hundred dollars a pair.

00:42:10 Speaker_00
And after I used them, I realized that they actually didn't work for me. And I didn't know if they didn't work for me because, I mean, so many women use this particular brand.

00:42:21 Speaker_00
But then I started realizing when I went back to the group of women and moms that I was working out with, a lot of them said the same thing.

00:42:29 Speaker_00
So it turns out that, you know, moms or women that have curves, women that have different body types, we do need something that holds us in a little bit better, that kind of accentuates our curves.

00:42:40 Speaker_00
And also, a lot of the moms that I was working out with were not willing to pay $100 for a pair of leggings.

00:42:47 Speaker_11
Yeah. Wow. It's so cool. So and so it's not like, quote unquote, surplus size designed for all body types, essentially.

00:42:57 Speaker_00
Yeah, definitely all body types, but these definitely are leggings that you would work out in.

00:43:02 Speaker_00
For example, we get a lot of the feedback from our customers stating that they love that our leggings stay in place during workouts that require a lot of jumping, jump squats. Also, women have ran marathons in our leggings.

00:43:16 Speaker_00
And one of the biggest things I think we get is the way that they feel on their body is more of a shapewear effect, but they do look amazing and they kind of lift in tone and they kind of suck you in.

00:43:27 Speaker_11
Wow. And I'm looking at your website now and it's like $35 for a pair of leggings. You know, just to name a brand. We've had the founder of Lululemon on the show a few years ago, Chip Wilson.

00:43:38 Speaker_11
He's not involved anymore, but they're like a hundred bucks for a pair of Lululemons. And this is a very competitive space that you've gotten into at Leisurewear. Really hard for one person to start it on their own.

00:43:52 Speaker_00
Are you bootstrapping this thing? Yeah, I started this business after it actually started as a side hustle. But during COVID, I worked for the Coca-Cola company. And during COVID, Coca-Cola decided to kill off a brand that I was helping manage.

00:44:09 Speaker_00
And at that point, I decided to take my severance package and injected 100% in my own business and first year of sales, this is when I was still running it out of my house, I did over a million dollars in sales.

00:44:23 Speaker_11
Wow! And that was purely by doing like social media ads and stuff like that?

00:44:27 Speaker_00
Yeah, ads. I've never paid for an influencer to speak about our brand. Our customers are our influencers. I've kind of always been an authentic person where I don't want

00:44:36 Speaker_00
somebody to sell me something because they're being paid to be out there selling it. So I think what has made us very successful is a lot of moms have power, man. Moms will share with their social media groups, and that's kind of how we took off.

00:44:54 Speaker_11
That's awesome. And what's your question for us today?

00:44:56 Speaker_00
So my question is, we're currently at an expansion stage. We've been growing, and we've been so blessed with the growth. However, we are looking.

00:45:05 Speaker_00
I don't know if right now is a good time for us to look for outside investors to bring into the business so that we can say yes to a lot of the things that we have currently been saying no to just because we don't have the staff or we don't have the expertise in those areas.

00:45:21 Speaker_11
Got it.

00:45:21 Speaker_00
OK.

00:45:22 Speaker_11
Norma, wow, right up your alley. We're talking about an apparel brand here, and Adriana's doing something different. It's lower price point. It's really designed to accentuate curves. She's bootstrapped this thing.

00:45:38 Speaker_11
You have bootstrapped your business, and now you're 100% owner of it. First of all, questions for Adriana.

00:45:47 Speaker_04
Well, first of all, your website looks fantastic. The moms focus, very specialized. Everything looks great. I love that you have a huge marketplace to reach out to.

00:46:02 Speaker_04
Nothing better than moms who have had babies, they want to feel good, they always want to work out, they want to feel held in. I commend you for really being very smart about what you decided to put your severance money in, and that was a good idea.

00:46:19 Speaker_04
I think the next step is usually the tough one because you have to make big decisions. Where are you going to get additional funding? I think There are choices you have and I think friends and family are always a good step.

00:46:42 Speaker_04
People that are your customers could also be good investors. I think before you jump into a relationship where they take a part of your business or a percentage of what you're doing, I think you're still identifying who you are and building that.

00:47:04 Speaker_04
And I think you have a little ways to go as far as investment in fabric and cost of goods. Where do you make the, where do you make them?

00:47:13 Speaker_00
We do make it all overseas. We have five different manufacturers, five different cut and sews, but we do actually have our own. We source our material and then we have our material sent to our cut and sews.

00:47:25 Speaker_00
Just so that, because we're very specific on the material we're using.

00:47:28 Speaker_04
And is the distribution other than your website?

00:47:32 Speaker_00
No, not at all. We started as really just doing pop-up shops and when we pivoted over to online sales, that's when the business and the focus really took us there so we couldn't pivot back. just because we're doing so much online sales. Yeah.

00:47:47 Speaker_04
And what about sales on TikTok or Instagram?

00:47:51 Speaker_00
We do not sell on TikTok. We have an Instagram page, but we do not sell directly on Instagram either.

00:47:57 Speaker_04
I would try it. I would try it. We do very well. I think it's a very big opportunity. Learn a little bit more about it because it opens up another, it's like having another store.

00:48:12 Speaker_11
I see. Adriana, are you specifically targeting moms or women who are mom ages?

00:48:23 Speaker_00
It is women that are mom ages because we do have a lot of customers that are not moms but are like we get a lot of college customers.

00:48:33 Speaker_11
Between like 20 and 40?

00:48:35 Speaker_00
Yes, definitely. I would say it's between 25 and 45 is our demographic, our sweet spot.

00:48:41 Speaker_11
You know, we did an episode on 21 Seeds Tequila recently. And what differentiated that brand was basically it was tequila for moms, you know, or book club. It was and people were making tequila for frat boys and, you know, men sipping tequila.

00:48:57 Speaker_11
Nobody was making I mean, very few people were focusing on on moms.

00:49:01 Speaker_11
And I love this idea because if you look and I just looked at this, if you look at the spending power of women in the United States between 25 and 45, it's like five to 15 trillion dollars a year.

00:49:13 Speaker_11
It's a massive amount of money, you know, in terms of what they spend, not obviously on athleisure wear and just everything. You know, overall, but it's a huge opportunity. And there's a clear thesis here, which I really love.

00:49:27 Speaker_04
Yeah, it's it's it's very impressive. And I think there are a lot of mom bloggers, too, that are so good, and they really have a great audience. And you might want to invite some of them to be a part of your world.

00:49:47 Speaker_04
You know, I think doing collaborations now would be a good idea for you. And I think the bloggers are all so good. They tell their stories about being mothers and how they feel about their bodies and what's going on in their lives.

00:50:02 Speaker_04
And I think bringing in that conversation and making your website also a place where people go for information just to populate it more would be, I think, a lot of fun. I love that idea.

00:50:17 Speaker_11
Adriana, what do you, I mean, in terms of raising money, what, obviously it would enable you to scale, but just roughly, what are you estimating your revenue to be this year?

00:50:29 Speaker_00
Our revenue right now, we're targeted at being, we're ending the year at $2 million in sales.

00:50:34 Speaker_11
Awesome.

00:50:34 Speaker_00
Amazing. Yeah. And the key points that we would need the capital for that we haven't done, but we want to go into is wholesale distribution, expanding and creating a petite line and more sizes like plus sizes.

00:50:48 Speaker_11
So so there's an argument to be made, right, that that having outside capital will help you get there. People are going to give you different different advice. Right.

00:50:56 Speaker_11
Some people are going to say, hang on as long as possible, because the longer you can hold on and scale it on your own, the greater the value and the more you can retain.

00:51:05 Speaker_11
That being said, you know, if you can find the right partner who has wholesale apparel experience, You know, maybe it's a factory, maybe they become a co-investor. That's where I think it starts to make sense to really explore it.

00:51:23 Speaker_11
If it's just a money play, if it's just about finding somebody with, you know, extra cash, but without the expertise, I would say. of no way, you know, focus on building the business on your own.

00:51:34 Speaker_11
But if you can find a really experienced, strategic investor who knows how to get in to wholesale, who's done it, then it makes sense to me. And I mean, to me, it seems like that's really what you what you want to look for. And that's not easy.

00:51:52 Speaker_11
It's going to take some time.

00:51:53 Speaker_04
Yeah, I want to add, be very careful about entering the wholesale distribution network. First of all, one of my questions is costing and making sure that you're meeting your margins because you are selling through your own website.

00:52:17 Speaker_04
I'm sure you have a cushion there. But once you get into wholesale, There are going to be all kinds of questions wanting discounts, wanting all kinds of promotional money. You're in their hands. They are also buying other brands who compete with you.

00:52:40 Speaker_04
and you lose the control you have right now. So I would look at more and more opportunities where you have the control, you have the profit margin, especially if you make a mistake, especially if something happens with a fabric you bought or

00:52:56 Speaker_04
Something goes wrong. You have a cushion because of the margin, but before you go into wholesale Take a serious. I would be happy to if you wanted to reach out to me. I'd be happy to walk you through that because It's very different

00:53:15 Speaker_04
And it doesn't mean you can't do it. It's just being very sure about every expanding out in your world first to take every opportunity. But I love it. I'm I'm I'm really impressed. I really am. I know you're going to be successful. I'm positive. Thank you.

00:53:35 Speaker_11
Adriana, congrats. Adriana Alvarez, love her shop. Good luck.

00:53:39 Speaker_04
Thank you so much.

00:53:41 Speaker_11
Congratulations. Norma, before I let you go, one last question, which I ask everybody who's come back on as a mentor, which is if you were to travel back in time,

00:53:52 Speaker_11
to the Norma in the 1960s, Norma Kamali in the 1960s, and you could say, Norma, I'm coming from 2024 with with a piece of advice, something I want you to know, what's something that you would want her to know about business?

00:54:08 Speaker_04
Well, you know, I have to say I really benefited from my mistakes and learning and getting advice from people who really helped me along the way. and we demonstrated that, you demonstrated.

00:54:26 Speaker_04
I am so impressed with your advice and you of course are an expert on entrepreneurs and every bit of advice you gave today was stunning. It was amazing. Oh, thank you. Thank you. So you deserve the reputation you have. You earned it.

00:54:45 Speaker_04
This is such a generous uh, venture for you to take. And I just love you, and I'm so proud to know you. You're really an extraordinary man.

00:54:59 Speaker_11
At the same time. Well, you're the best. You know, you're the best. And I hope to come see you in New York soon.

00:55:05 Speaker_03
We'll see you soon. Hope so.

00:55:06 Speaker_11
Thank you. That is the iconic fashion designer, Norma Kamali. And by the way, if you haven't heard Norma's original How I Built This, you've got to go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the podcast description.

00:55:18 Speaker_11
And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.

00:55:23 Speaker_04
Well, I started to make some things, and I would put them in the store to see how they would do, and they would do really well.

00:55:34 Speaker_04
And so, the majority of the stock slowly became my designs, and I had a full page in Vogue, and I had a good-sized page in Bazaar, and that was beyond belief because I thought somebody is gonna find me out. I don't know what I'm doing.

00:55:57 Speaker_04
And I have a full page in Vogue and Bazaar. This is nuts. Like, I don't have a clue.

00:56:07 Speaker_11
Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at GuyRoz.com.

00:56:15 Speaker_11
Each week it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever.

00:56:24 Speaker_11
And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them.

00:56:37 Speaker_11
And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-422-4222. 433-1298 and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well.

00:56:54 Speaker_11
This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with music composed by Ramtina Rablui. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez.

00:57:04 Speaker_11
Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Chris Massini, Carla Estevez, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Katherine Seifer, Devin Schwartz, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

00:57:22 Speaker_11
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00:57:34 Speaker_11
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00:57:53 Speaker_11
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00:58:11 Speaker_11
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