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Episode: Advice Line with Michael Preysman of Everlane

Author: Guy Raz | Wondery
Duration: 00:49:48

Episode Shownotes

Everlane co-founder and former CEO Michael Preysman joins Guy on the Advice Line where they answer questions from three early-stage founders. First we meet Todd in the Bay Area, who’s looking to spread the word about his pickleball apparel brand with a younger demographic. Then Anna in Sydney, who wonders

if she should expand her eco-friendly kids clothing line to include adults. Then Pall in British Columbia, who wants to change how people think about reusable plastic containers.Thank you to the founders of KTCHN, Earthlings United and Mr. Lid for being part of our show. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298.And be sure to listen to Everlane’s founding story as told by Michael on the show in 2023. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineers were Robert Rodriquez and Gilly Moon. You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram and sign up for Guy’s free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Full Transcript

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00:01:52 Speaker_08
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00:02:07 Speaker_08
Joining me this week is Michael Prasman. He's the founder of the clothing retailer Everlane. Michael, welcome back to the show. Great to have you on. Super excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

00:02:18 Speaker_08
All right, so Michael, today we are gonna talk to founders of a few direct-to-consumer businesses that are looking to kind of build buzz and take their businesses to the next level.

00:02:28 Speaker_08
And I wanted to invite you back specifically for this episode, because when you launched Everlane, the thing that was kind of at the core of your idea was getting attention by like building buzz, like wait lists and focusing on going viral and creating scarcity, which is now the norm

00:02:47 Speaker_08
with so many products and shoe drops and all this stuff.

00:02:50 Speaker_06
So many drops and it's a totally different world than it was 15 years ago. And, and I just launched a new brand again. So I'm, I'm right back in the seat right in it. Yeah. No, no.

00:02:59 Speaker_06
Some of the new tricks and, and I'm also baffled that, uh, you know, learning, learning on the go as well. Cause you always got to stay young and learn.

00:03:06 Speaker_08
For sure. But before we get to the callers, Michael, first of all, tell me a little bit about what your new venture is.

00:03:14 Speaker_06
Yeah, for sure. The new venture really sits in a huge interest of mine, which is I really believe we're moving from a world of designer clothes to designer bodies. And you and I were just talking about this.

00:03:27 Speaker_06
Everybody wants to know, how do I live longer, healthier, better? And with that, they're paying attention to what am I putting in my body and, and who are the doctors I talked to, et cetera. So, um, the first brand that I launched is called Magna.

00:03:43 Speaker_06
So it's an electrolyte brand focused on how do we get more of the right nutrients in our body, um, through supplementation. And you know, so much of this from entrepreneurship, people burn out and they can run themselves to the ground.

00:03:57 Speaker_06
And I, I like to say you only have one life, but it's actually quite long if you live it right. Um, and so we're, we're really out there to inspire people to play the long game.

00:04:06 Speaker_08
Nice.

00:04:06 Speaker_06
I love it.

00:04:06 Speaker_08
All right, Michael, a lot, a lot of, of entrepreneurs, of course, struggle to get attention. You're just talking about your new venture and it's a different world than when you started Everlane 15 years ago.

00:04:16 Speaker_08
Um, and this doesn't matter what industry you're in right there. There's, I mean, there, there, At any point, there are at least a dozen or more people trying to do the same thing.

00:04:25 Speaker_08
You obviously knew that at the time there were hundreds, thousands of clothing retailers, but you weren't thinking about initially comparing your product to anyone else's.

00:04:37 Speaker_08
How did you think about getting eyes on that first shirt when even then people online had a bunch of different options?

00:04:46 Speaker_06
Well, I'll say two things. First of all, it wasn't as many options as we think. I mean, this was the time before even Shopify really existed. Yeah. So we were very early on in the days. It was like Warby Parker had launched.

00:04:58 Speaker_06
And I know you guys, you did a great interview with them. They had launched a year and a half ago, but it was before glossier before Harry's. So it was still quieter online. So we had a bit of an advantage that way, even before Instagram ads.

00:05:10 Speaker_06
So it's very different. When Everlane started, it was part of a two decade period that I call the period of authenticity. It's the period where people really cared about where their products came from. Local, organic, sustainable, transparent.

00:05:26 Speaker_06
That was a reaction to the 70s and 80s, which was all about greed. We are now past that phase and what I call into the attention

00:05:38 Speaker_06
economy it's going to be two decades of obsession around attention it's why we're seeing all the growth around celebrity it's why we're seeing all the growth around um how many followers how many mean brands a brand that's really hot for like two years and then

00:05:53 Speaker_08
And then no one cares.

00:05:55 Speaker_06
And so I think we're, we're in the smack middle of this. So there's two things happening. There are people like you and me and the people who listen to this podcast that still care about those things.

00:06:07 Speaker_06
But the bulk of where the attention is and the growth is happening is around this attention economy and celebrities. Now, I believe we're still got probably a decade left of that, maybe a little bit less.

00:06:18 Speaker_06
Um, but it really puts into perspective, how do you get attention today and how do you grow your business?

00:06:24 Speaker_08
Well, lots to talk about. Let's bring in our first call because I think, Michael, you've got a lot to offer and a lot of great ideas. So, hello, caller. Welcome to the show.

00:06:34 Speaker_08
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

00:06:40 Speaker_05
Well, hello, Guy and Michael. Thank you so much for having me on the show. I'm a big fan, so this means a lot to me. My name is Todd Weinberg. I am calling from the San Francisco East Bay Area. I'm the founder of Kitchen.

00:06:54 Speaker_05
We are a pickleball-inspired lifestyle apparel and accessories brand. Our goal is to really bring a fresh and elevated sense of style and aesthetic to the pickleball space.

00:07:08 Speaker_05
And we want to be the go-to brand that people think of when they want to look good and feel good both on and off the court.

00:07:14 Speaker_08
All right, pickleball, I've played it a couple times. I love it because it's like ping pong. Anybody can basically play right away. You don't have to, it's not like golf where you have to start when you're like seven. But remind me, what is kitchen?

00:07:28 Speaker_08
Because the kitchen is a thing in pickleball, right?

00:07:32 Speaker_05
Thank you for asking. And actually, when I was listening to Michael's interview, I think you had mentioned that a name isn't all that important, but I think in this case, the name kitchen is very important for this particular brand.

00:07:44 Speaker_05
So from the net to seven feet on each side of the net, that area inside there is called the kitchen. And so that's how we derive the name.

00:07:54 Speaker_08
Okay. Pickleball, there's been a lot of hype around it. First of all, what are you selling? Are you selling pickleball rackets? Are you selling pickleballs, those wiffle balls? What is the product?

00:08:07 Speaker_05
Right, so we're mainly focused on apparel with some accessories. And the brand launched only November of last year, so we're not quite even a year in the public yet.

00:08:18 Speaker_05
So we're still developing the product line, but currently away from the activewear side and into t-shirts, hoodies, crewnecks, sweatshirts, and lots of hats. Okay.

00:08:30 Speaker_08
How did you, uh, I'm assuming you're a pickleball fan and you're thinking, Hey, cause there's golf. I mean, there's a whole billion dollar industry around like golf lifestyle brands, right?

00:08:39 Speaker_08
All these, uh, companies that basically built these huge businesses, uh, with like golf shirts and stuff. So I'm thinking you're thinking, Hey, there's an opportunity here. How did that, how did it come about?

00:08:53 Speaker_05
Yeah. So, so briefly the origin story is that I did not set off to start this company, uh, in the way that it happened. I, uh, was sort of semi retired. I I'm the old guy on the call today.

00:09:07 Speaker_05
And I have a couple of businesses here in the East Bay area that were kind of on autopilot. And I decided that I was getting a bit bored. I wanted to do something else. And I love pickleball.

00:09:18 Speaker_05
I picked it up during COVID, got super inspired by the game, and my kids love it. My family plays often. And also grew up in the fashion industry. That's another story. But I just had an interest in pickleball apparel.

00:09:33 Speaker_05
So I just started doing some research and found that this side, not the activewear side, the activewear side is very crowded. But the lifestyle side, the more off-court side of the business is more open. And so that's the niche I've been going after.

00:09:49 Speaker_05
Pickleball is an emerging sport. It's the fastest growing sport in the world right now, certainly in the country. And it's just taking off, but I think currently 16 to 17 million players in the US.

00:10:02 Speaker_05
And so we want a piece of that pie, but it's a piece of the lifestyle slice of the pie.

00:10:08 Speaker_08
All right, and before we get to Michael, tell me the question that you have for us today.

00:10:13 Speaker_05
What I'm most concerned as a new brand is how to best build community and engagement with my specific demographic. You know, it's a pretty niche-y space even still.

00:10:24 Speaker_05
As popular as Pickleball is, it's still quite niche-y, especially in our demographic, which is really ages, let's say, 22 to 35 is kind of our sweet spot. And how do I reach them best?

00:10:36 Speaker_08
Before we answer Todd's questions, do you have any questions for Todd about the business and the brand?

00:10:41 Speaker_06
First of all, congratulations always. Uh, it's not for the faint of heart to go into apparel. Um, and especially in, in this market, it's gotten harder and harder. So you better love it because otherwise it's, uh, it's not worth it. It's quite difficult.

00:10:56 Speaker_05
Yes.

00:10:57 Speaker_06
And I was going to ask you, you know, um, I guess it. Two questions. Like when you think of what you want to be when you grow up, as they say, you're like six months, you know, call it almost a year old.

00:11:11 Speaker_06
What do you want to be when you grow up and, and what's not working right now for you?

00:11:15 Speaker_05
Okay. I love that question. And there are a few brands out there that really inspire me. And one of them is, is a brand called Melbourne. They are a really fantastic, uh, golf lifestyle brand.

00:11:28 Speaker_05
And they've really started to take off in the last couple of years. I mean, you're probably more familiar with a Travis Matthew, right? Travis Matthew has been established for many years as the 800 pound gorilla in the space.

00:11:42 Speaker_05
I mean, you could wear Melbourne or Travis Matthew to church on a date night, and it's that kind of a vibe.

00:11:48 Speaker_06
Yeah. Okay, cool. And what do you think's not working for you right now? Where are you struggling?

00:11:53 Speaker_05
There are a few areas I would say, We're really trying to figure out how to resource our materials so that we can build margin. Having a difficult time just resourcing because I want high quality.

00:12:10 Speaker_05
I wanna have that Lululemon Aloe quality at a price point that my demographic can afford and I'm really struggling and that's probably just finding our margins is probably the biggest struggle right now.

00:12:23 Speaker_06
So the two most important hires for me in the early days in an apparel brand are sourcing and production and creative.

00:12:32 Speaker_06
And I think, I think both address the pieces that you're talking about from my perspective, one on the source can production, uh, getting that right is so, so critical because if you don't get that right, the, the challenge of the peril is everything's this iterative cycle where you buy, it takes a while to get in, you sell.

00:12:51 Speaker_06
So unless you can get the supply chain really tight and short. It takes six, 12 months to fix something properly by the time you sell through the inventory, maybe you can do a bit faster.

00:13:02 Speaker_06
So I just think getting an advisor or getting somebody who can join you or help or consult. If you have the ability that can just make sure that your, your pricing, your quality is spot on and your costing.

00:13:14 Speaker_06
Um, and I've had tons of friends who've started streetwear brands and it's always the ones that are successful, have that production nailed from day one. Just yes, really, really. And if you don't, it cripples you.

00:13:27 Speaker_08
Michael, I'm curious, I mean, we talked about this just a couple minutes ago, about this idea that we're in the middle of the attention economy, right? And we got about another decade of it.

00:13:36 Speaker_08
And so, with a brand like this, if you can capture attention, then you can, presumably, you can build momentum, right? And so, I wonder whether a brand like this, like you mentioned this golf brand, Malbon, I was looking at their website, and

00:13:56 Speaker_08
They are clearly doing tons of collaborations with like all these other brands and, you know, and this is a big thing. Now it's a golf brand and there's something aspirational about golf.

00:14:06 Speaker_08
Cause golf, you know, is expensive and people talk business on a golf course. So the, the pickleball community is not exactly a one-to-one comparison, but I wonder, and Michael, you may have some thoughts on this.

00:14:18 Speaker_08
I mean, is there a world where Todd really, you know, needs to kind of lean in on this kind of. you know, collab style influencer kind of thing to really start to build momentum?

00:14:32 Speaker_08
Or is that just like, you know, a money pit, just pouring money down the drain?

00:14:38 Speaker_06
Well, I don't think it's a money pit. I think you hit the nail on the head, though, with something interesting, which is golf is aspirational.

00:14:44 Speaker_06
And, and the other one is of course, tennis is aspirational, which is where you see brands like sporty and rich on the female side. Um, and just so many different tennis brands that have been successful.

00:14:53 Speaker_06
There is an opportunity for that to happen here, but it's not there yet. I think there's a bit of a, how much you want to invest in creative so that you're creating a bit more of. And aspiration and pickleball.

00:15:06 Speaker_06
And I think that could be really interesting because that isn't yet owned in the world of pickleball. And is anyone providing that aspirational lifestyle right now? I would say when I look at kitchen, it's a little bit more casual. Um, right.

00:15:21 Speaker_06
When I look at Melbourne that you're talking about, there's some casual, but it is, it, it, it's got a vibe to it that feels cool and being cool. Just expensive. Cool. Yeah. It takes work. It takes creative execution.

00:15:40 Speaker_06
And so, you know, it's interesting because at Everlane, any time we wanted to drive growth correctly, It was always about the product and the creative. That's what's beautiful about apparel is the marketing is built in because people want to wear it.

00:15:57 Speaker_06
And so I would really dial in with your customer and with people who aren't your customer to ask them. What's resonating with you and our brand? What would you like to see more of? What kind of feeling do you get?

00:16:10 Speaker_06
Because the thing about apparel is it's all about the feeling that people have when they put that on and they feel something. And so what are the feelings they get with the brand kitchen?

00:16:20 Speaker_05
I was just going to mention that, you know, in the last, let's call it a year of of launching the company, we came out with some kind of like throw a bunch of stuff on the throw spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks. Right.

00:16:31 Speaker_05
So you're trying different things here and there. But to get to the air, to this, to the point where I can actually start doing collabs, I feel like that's just a whole other level. You know, it's just it's just.

00:16:41 Speaker_05
It's a whole other ballpark and we're not even close to being there yet. So I'm trying to get to from point A to point B and just trying to build some like build the wave and the critical mass that we can get there.

00:16:51 Speaker_06
I think that makes sense. I mean, I do think the more you can get and this is why I keep coming back to creative is that the creative is resonating.

00:17:00 Speaker_06
Figuring out who the influencers are in this space and making sure they're obsessed with your brand is the next level of this. And you can't pay to play here. They have to love the product and love the brand.

00:17:10 Speaker_06
And so that's why I keep coming back to, if the creative's great, the influencers will want to wear it. It's like, why does Justin Bieber want to wear Malvin? Because it's cool. Because the design's cool, the couple's cool, the vibe's cool.

00:17:23 Speaker_06
So he feels status in that. And that's the reality with apparel is, If you want to build a lifestyle brand, it needs to be that level of aspiration, which is, by the way, really hard. So I commend you for, uh, for doing this. Thank you.

00:17:41 Speaker_05
Thank you. Yes.

00:17:42 Speaker_08
I'm realizing that, um, Todd, congrats. The brand is called kitchen. Um, good luck. We're going to be following you and, and, uh, can't wait to see what, what, what you make of it.

00:17:53 Speaker_05
Thank you guys. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

00:17:55 Speaker_08
All right. Thanks for calling.

00:17:56 Speaker_05
Awesome. Congrats.

00:17:57 Speaker_08
Thank you. Awesome. You know, I love pickleball, but every time I go to the pickleball courts in my neighborhood, they're all taken. They're all taken by these like aggressive pickleball players. And yeah, I'm like sitting there waiting and no dice.

00:18:17 Speaker_06
Yep, I know. Well, it is a hot sport, but what I would say is I'm not sure yet it has the aspiration. It doesn't have the rich history that tennis and golf have that allow it to play in the world of streetwear and luxury.

00:18:35 Speaker_06
So I just think we're a little early perhaps, and I think he's probably got the right idea, but a little early.

00:18:39 Speaker_08
Well, that's nothing wrong with that. You were early, and look what happened, right?

00:18:44 Speaker_06
It's true. So we'll give it to him.

00:18:46 Speaker_08
Yep. Stay with us because after the break, we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab.

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Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Michael Prasman, the founder of the online clothing retailer Everlane. All right, let's bring our next caller. Hello. Welcome to the advice line.

00:21:39 Speaker_08
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

00:21:44 Speaker_03
Hi, Guy. Hi, Michael. Lovely to meet you. My name's Anna Babbage. I'm calling from Bondi in Sydney, Australia. So I'm the co-founder of Earthlings United. We're a kids' clothing brand that's designed to fit for longer.

00:21:58 Speaker_03
So our intent is to reduce the amount of waste surrounding kids' clothing.

00:22:02 Speaker_08
So when you say, welcome to the show, thank you for calling in, and when you say it fit longer, what do you mean that it's designed to last longer, to fit them longer?

00:22:11 Speaker_03
So we've really considered the areas where kids grow. So think track style pant that has an extended cuff that you can fold up and down. We have a dress, we call it the dress top that has elastic drawn sides that you can release.

00:22:24 Speaker_03
So it starts out as a dress on like a two, three-year-old, and then when they get to a four, five, six, becomes a top.

00:22:30 Speaker_03
And we have a short that is worn as a pan as a two-year-old, and then it's got a drop crotch, so they grow into it and wear as a short, four, five, six. So we just do two sizes.

00:22:42 Speaker_08
So you only have two sizes, and it's designed to fit kids aged, Can you tell me the ages again?

00:22:48 Speaker_03
Yeah.

00:22:49 Speaker_08
Two to 10. Two to 10 years old. So you just had to buy two sweatshirts and two whatever bottoms and you got the whole thing for eight years. Yep. Don't shop for eight years. Yeah, that's cool. What a cool idea.

00:23:07 Speaker_08
So now, and it's like most, it's sort of like sweat pant, like sweat like gear, right? Like sort of.

00:23:12 Speaker_03
Yeah, it's all super comfortable, organic cotton and natural mineral dye. But yeah, we want it to be comfortable. We want kids to want to wear it.

00:23:20 Speaker_08
Nice. I love that you're doing that because I have got to tell you, and I'm going to get in trouble because some of my friends listen to the show and they make this stuff. I'm getting increasingly concerned about the amount of plastic I wear.

00:23:31 Speaker_08
All the performance wear is plastic. Yup. Plastic, plastic, plastic. It's everywhere. And I'm like, why am I wearing so much plastic? And now you're here telling me you're doing organic cotton and natural dyes. Awesome.

00:23:43 Speaker_06
You know where I sit with plastic. Yeah, please Michael. As little bit as possible, please.

00:23:49 Speaker_08
I love this idea. Two sizes, basically the clothing adjust to the kid over time. That's super cool. Tell me about the idea. How'd you come up with it?

00:24:01 Speaker_03
Well, my brother's my co-founder and we had kids and, you know, the piles of hammy towns just pile up and pile up and it was getting frustrated. But the true inspiration was this pair of pants that my son wore.

00:24:17 Speaker_03
And they were just a cotton jersey pants they wore when he was one. And then he kept wearing them when he was two and they started to turn into shorter pants when he was three. And then four, they were shorts and then he wore them to pajamas.

00:24:28 Speaker_03
He wore them for five years. And so I just thought, these pants are amazing. Why can't all kids clothing evolve with them like these pants? And yeah, that was really the inspiration.

00:24:40 Speaker_08
I love it. So, okay, when did you guys launch? When did you start?

00:24:43 Speaker_03
We launched three months ago, but we started three years ago working on it.

00:24:49 Speaker_08
And right now you're selling it direct to consumer through your website.

00:24:53 Speaker_03
Yes, but we just opened a pop-up in Bondi a month ago.

00:24:56 Speaker_08
In Sydney.

00:24:57 Speaker_03
Nice. In Sydney.

00:24:58 Speaker_08
And tell me what, before I forget to ask you, what's your question for us today?

00:25:04 Speaker_03
So the number one request we receive from our customers is to create adults clothing. So nearly every second day on Instagram, someone's saying, please create an adults line.

00:25:17 Speaker_03
And so the problem we went out to solve was the fact that kids grow up so quickly and create so much waste. But adults don't grow up, they grow out perhaps, but not grow up. And so that's not sort of an area.

00:25:33 Speaker_03
We want to go look at babies and then older children, but we're never going to do adults. So how do you know when to pivot and listen to your customer, even if it sort of strays from your original business intent?

00:25:49 Speaker_08
That's interesting. So you've got the whole idea was to make it so parents wouldn't have to buy a bunch of crap every year and throw it away. But now you've got the parents saying, hey, I want this stuff for my size.

00:26:00 Speaker_08
I want this comfortable jersey cotton to wear around the house. Michael Prasman, what do you think? I mean, her customers are asking for this, but she's so early in the business. What does she do?

00:26:14 Speaker_06
Oh my goodness. I mean, first of all, I'm with you. What a great idea. I have a, I have a seven month old. And so as we, as we think about all the clothes you've got to buy, it's like every two, three months, new clothes.

00:26:26 Speaker_06
It's always, uh, it's just a train of new clothes. And then you're just hoping you have more kids that they can grow into. And then eventually you have to give it all away. So, um, it's a very cool idea.

00:26:36 Speaker_06
And what I like about what you're doing is the positioning. And I was telling guy positioning is so important. You have a very clear positioning in the market. And I, I guess my, my question for you is. What are adults looking for in your clothes?

00:26:51 Speaker_06
Like what are they, do they just love how come they bought it for their kids and they just love how comfortable it is. Like what's the, what's the story there.

00:26:58 Speaker_03
They love the natural mineral dye colorways. I think it's also the comfort too, but everyone is drawn to the colors. So that's sort of something our main focus was the fit, you know, when we went out to design these pieces.

00:27:11 Speaker_03
But we managed to find this factory in Portugal and they've painted in this technology to use natural mineral dyes that don't run.

00:27:20 Speaker_03
And so we sort of got lucky and everyone is obsessed and so drawn in by these colors because they're these quite unique muted tones that you can't get.

00:27:32 Speaker_08
Yeah, they're cool. It's like lavenders and like these greens I'm seeing and these sort of blues.

00:27:39 Speaker_03
Dusty rose. Yeah. So it's the, they just like, Oh my God, I want that for myself. And I think also is that whole market of matching with the kids that adults, I don't do that, but some, some people do that.

00:27:53 Speaker_03
And so it's, if we were to introduce adults, is it still, is a different sort of section of the brand or, Yeah, it's hard to know.

00:28:11 Speaker_06
I think, yeah, I mean, what I would say is sometimes we start. And, and, and this was got guy knows it's like we started Everlane, we started selling phone cases and then it ended up looking like radical transparency. So it's pretty, pretty different.

00:28:26 Speaker_06
Right. Um, and I think we always had this idea of like at the core, reinventing retail and creating a better experience. When I look at what you're doing, I would just say, I hear the words Earthlings United and I hear better for the planet.

00:28:42 Speaker_08
Yes.

00:28:43 Speaker_06
And then I see your site and I see both. It's better because we don't have to grow, uh, buy as much clothes, but I also see it's organic, it's mineral dyed and it's trusting race. And, and there's a lot of goodness in that as well.

00:28:57 Speaker_06
So I think at the core for me is that earthlings United, which is such a fun name and the logo you have agree.

00:29:04 Speaker_08
You know, I totally agree with that, Michael. We did a story maybe a year or two ago, and it's worth listening to, Anna, with a brand called Primary.

00:29:14 Speaker_08
And their whole point was, hey, we want to make kids basics that's less expensive, that is without a label, without a, you know. And eventually the adults were asking for stuff. And so now they do adult clothing as well. So I agree with Michael here.

00:29:32 Speaker_08
I'm looking at your website. I see Earthlings United. And yeah, I might say, hey, kids grow up, clothes should too. But you could also have a window that says, hey, we make stuff for grownups too.

00:29:43 Speaker_08
I mean, I don't see a whole lot of problem because your name, Earthlings United, doesn't say, hey, this is just for kids. It's like it could be a universal brand. So I think it's a really interesting thing to consider.

00:30:02 Speaker_06
Yeah.

00:30:02 Speaker_06
The way I would think about it is do a couple pieces for adults and see how they sell, because it might be that the, that the notion is that the, and I, again, I think about positioning, the positioning becomes the eco-friendly first through the lens of the fabric.

00:30:19 Speaker_06
And then the kids becomes a subset of that.

00:30:23 Speaker_03
I think that's a good idea. Maybe we test out a couple of sweaters or something and do a smaller run and that could almost be exclusive or something just to test the adult market.

00:30:41 Speaker_03
But I did take a lot of inspiration from listening to your podcast episode, Michael, because I

00:30:47 Speaker_03
I remember you saying, and I took this inspiration when I was walking past this site before we opened this pop-up, because I remember you saying, oh, we never intended to do brick and mortar stores.

00:30:56 Speaker_03
And it's very early days, but I was walking past this closed down location and I just happened to inquire. And so we've kind of taken a bit of a leap by opening this little pop-up, but I think

00:31:10 Speaker_03
That's a good example, I guess, of just sort of pivoting in your business and seeing how it goes, I guess.

00:31:18 Speaker_08
Yeah, I think that you have the opportunity to, you can create like a hype machine. You gotta do a drop.

00:31:24 Speaker_08
You're gonna do just like have a, we're gonna do a limited drop of adult, you know, maybe just do two sizes of adults too or something, you know, two men's sizes, two women's sizes and for now, and you just try them out because, you know,

00:31:39 Speaker_08
performance wear really kind of exploded in the last 20 years. Lululemon really was one of the first pioneers of this. And I think a lot of people they love it. They appreciate performance wear, but they are looking a lot.

00:31:51 Speaker_08
A lot of people are starting to look for natural organic versions of this. which essentially is what we wore in the seventies and eighties, right? It was just cotton sweats, like all, you know, that's what athletes wore.

00:32:05 Speaker_08
But I think there's a, there is an opportunity around that. And I really think that, um, trying it as a limited time drop could be really cool. Cause it's it, cause you already have, right?

00:32:17 Speaker_08
I mean, you're already working with manufacturers and suppliers who presumably could just make bigger sizes of this stuff.

00:32:24 Speaker_03
Yeah, I really liked that guy, what you said about just still do two sizes, because that is another one of our points of communication. We say just two sizes, and maybe that's how we can carry that into the adults and streamline it.

00:32:38 Speaker_06
But the one thing I'll tell you is don't get too hung up on your communication, because that might not be what the consumer is hearing. What I'm hearing you say is that the consumer is hearing these incredible dies.

00:32:52 Speaker_06
And one of the things I've always seen with founders is these what I call sacred cows. And the question is for me, what's the what are the sacred cows, the consumer? What do they really care about as it relates to your brand? Is it.

00:33:06 Speaker_06
the eco-friendly, is it the quality and the comfort? Is it the fact that you only do two sizes? And knowing that hierarchy from your consumer allows you to figure out what you're talking about.

00:33:19 Speaker_06
and maybe change some things in the future, because otherwise you can get stuck.

00:33:22 Speaker_08
Yeah. And I think that's such an important point, right? And maybe it might be worthwhile, and you may be doing some of this, but it might be worthwhile to even do a limited survey. Ask people, what is it about our clothing that was interesting to you?

00:33:36 Speaker_08
And find out, is it the two sizes? Is it the fact that it's cotton? Is it the fact that it's natural dyes? Because I think, Michael, you're onto something here. I think you might be surprised about what you learn.

00:33:48 Speaker_03
Yeah, I think that's really good advice actually, because you get stuck in your head, you're just like operating in this vacuum and you make all these assumptions and I think that's a really good idea that we should conduct a survey because I think we'd be quite surprised.

00:34:04 Speaker_08
Awesome. All right. Well, I can't wait to see. I'm going to keep checking your website out because if you make an adult size, I'm going to order one. The brand is called Earthlings United. Anna Babbage, thank you so much for calling in. Good luck.

00:34:16 Speaker_03
Thank you so much.

00:34:17 Speaker_08
Congratulations.

00:34:18 Speaker_03
Thanks, Michael. Thanks, Guy.

00:34:20 Speaker_08
Thank you. I want to go to Bondi Beach right now. I want to go there now. I want to be sitting on Bondi Beach and just

00:34:29 Speaker_08
Watching the sunset or well, you know, I don't know if the sunset if it sets there I can't I don't know that I don't know if it does it probably does I'm I think it does and I think it's pretty beautiful.

00:34:38 Speaker_08
Oh, it's East Coast It's East Coast of Australia with the Sun sets in the West But maybe it doesn't in Australia because it's on the other side of the earth. I don't know I think she's making cool stuff. I think it's fun. Totally. Absolutely. I

00:34:52 Speaker_08
Okay, next up after the break, another caller with another business challenge. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.

00:35:08 Speaker_01
In early 1607, three ships carrying over 100 English settlers landed on the shores of present-day Virginia, where they established a colony they named Jamestown. But from the start, factions and infighting threatened to tear the colony apart.

00:35:23 Speaker_01
Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery's podcast, American History Tellers. We take you to the events, times, and people that shaped America and Americans, our values, our struggles, and our dreams. In our latest series,

00:35:35 Speaker_01
After their arrival, English colonists in Jamestown quickly established a fort, but their pursuit of gold and glory soon put them on a collision course with Virginia's native inhabitants and the powerful Chief of Chiefs Powhatan.

00:35:47 Speaker_01
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00:36:17 Speaker_08
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Michael Prasman, the founder of the online clothing retailer Everlane. All right, let's bring our next caller. Hello, welcome to the advice line.

00:36:29 Speaker_08
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

00:36:33 Speaker_04
Hey, Guy. Hey, Michael. I am calling from British Columbia, Canada, and my business is called Mr. Lid. We make a plastic container with an attached lid so you never lose the lid.

00:36:46 Speaker_07
And tell us your name. Oh, Paul Musaev. Paul Musaev. Paul, I believe we have met before. Yes, sir. I believe we met at a trade show that I went to speak at.

00:36:56 Speaker_04
Yes, sir. Wow. Yeah, I remember Mr. Lidd. I'm so glad I got a chance to run into you, guy.

00:37:03 Speaker_08
Well, so tell us about Mr. Lid.

00:37:06 Speaker_04
So Mr. Lid is a plastic container attached lid. Never lose the lid. One of the biggest frustrations people have in the storage game.

00:37:16 Speaker_08
You've been in my kitchen and you've seen all the empty lids that I have, missing orphaned lids. Yes. Keep going.

00:37:25 Speaker_04
Mr. Lid's actually been around since 2011. I am not the original founder of Mr. Lid. I ended up buying the company just over a year ago. It's made in Wisconsin. It's a USA made product.

00:37:39 Speaker_04
I bought it because I saw a need for a container company to be fun, to be trendy, to be modern. We did that, and then people started to write in saying, hey, love what you guys are doing. I've been using Mr. Lid for over 10 years.

00:37:58 Speaker_04
In fact, I still have some of the same containers. And that's what really prompted us to develop this vision around replacing single-use containers. So we're very much focused on reusability. We're focused on alternative materials.

00:38:15 Speaker_04
And that's kind of the purpose of the company moving forward.

00:38:19 Speaker_08
Where are you selling right now?

00:38:21 Speaker_04
MrLid.com and Amazon.

00:38:24 Speaker_08
Got it. OK. And tell me a little bit about the challenges that you face. I mean, you bought this, I guess, in 2023 and it was an established brand. But are you I mean, are you facing any challenges? Are you facing any headwinds or so far smooth sailing?

00:38:41 Speaker_04
The response to the brand is good. We have a lot of work to do, but we have some early signs that our messaging is working. We're obviously going against some very big competitors in this space, some longstanding competitors.

00:38:56 Speaker_04
Kind of timely with some of the news that came out yesterday.

00:38:59 Speaker_08
You're talking about Tupperware, right? Because Tupperware just declared bankruptcy.

00:39:03 Speaker_04
Correct. And if I could say, I actually sat on MrLid for a while before I purchased it. One of the reasons I bought MrLid was reading Tupperware's earnings report from early April.

00:39:16 Speaker_04
Despite some of the issues, they had claimed in their report that they were having a hard time connecting with the younger audience.

00:39:23 Speaker_08
Yes.

00:39:23 Speaker_04
And that's, that set off a light bulb. I said, you know what? Well, first things first, you got to understand your audience.

00:39:30 Speaker_04
So we went out there and we, you know, I, I polled and I asked questions and I wanted to know what did a younger audience want from a container. And that I thought, I thought Mr. Lidd had some of those attributes.

00:39:42 Speaker_08
Paul, I'm looking at your website and I see your bio and it says a longtime tech entrepreneur. How did you go from tech to getting this plastic container company?

00:39:55 Speaker_04
So that's right. I was an entrepreneur at the age of 16. I was very, very much engulfed in tech. I loved, you know, I was friends with my janitors at school because I was tinkering in the computer lab. So I found a passion very early on.

00:40:11 Speaker_04
I kind of grew up in the VC era, thought I should be able to invest in companies and I tried and I failed and I consult and then I tried again and I failed and I'd consult and I went through this cycle of trying to get, you know, one startup off the ground at a time.

00:40:28 Speaker_04
And I just remember the last one that we were involved in. I said to myself, I said, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. I want to find boring, profitable companies. Love it. Where I can add my flair, my personality, my ideas into and grow.

00:40:47 Speaker_04
So when I had the chance meeting the owners of Mr. Lid, When I heard container with a lid attached, I just said, oh my gosh, this is so simple. I can understand this. Everyone can understand this. There wasn't a six-month sales cycle.

00:41:03 Speaker_04
It was just, oh, container with a lid attached. It just made so much sense.

00:41:07 Speaker_08
Yeah, I love that story. It's like, why don't more people just buy laundromats or car washes? You know, like these businesses that just have this recurring cash flow. Anyway, that's a different conversation. Paul, tell us what your question is for us.

00:41:24 Speaker_04
Well, so I mentioned that baked into our vision statement is this idea of replacing single-use containers. So how can we change consumer behavior and turn Mr. Lid into an accessory that replaces takeout containers?

00:41:40 Speaker_08
Interesting. Okay. That is a big challenge, right? To create a whole category or I guess to change consumer behavior, not a category. But Michael, we can we can go to Paul's question, but you may have questions of your own for him. So please.

00:41:56 Speaker_06
Well, yeah, first of all, I love the idea of buying a business. You know, it's having being somebody who helps people start them and starting them myself.

00:42:03 Speaker_06
It's like, why not just go out and take something that's already working a little bit and say, hey, let's let's not create something completely new. Let's build on what's out there. So congrats on that.

00:42:15 Speaker_06
Um, you know, it's a big vision to say, let's create a new category, like a water bottle. What's, what's the use case? Like, can you tell us like, where would we take this? How would we take it? How would we use it?

00:42:28 Speaker_06
When you think about it, replacing the world of takeout containers.

00:42:33 Speaker_04
So the first, uh, the first use case we were going after is, uh, very specifically when you go out for, you know, lunch, when you get some fries with the guys and you got some leftovers.

00:42:44 Speaker_04
We are trying to encourage the behavior where you reach into your bag and you pull out your Liddy and you say, instead of taking home a piece of garbage, you know, I eat the container that they provide you.

00:42:54 Speaker_04
So you ask the server, can I please put that in my Mr. Lid? So we're trying to take that on first before we take on bigger use cases.

00:43:07 Speaker_06
It's interesting because I would have thought about this a bit differently, which is it's so hard to change consumer behavior, you know, to get someone to take something like this and put it in their bag and carry it around and then go to the store.

00:43:20 Speaker_06
Whereas and it took a long time for you know, it started with by the way water bottles that were throwaway to then getting people to move to Refillable water bottles that were for performance to then moving towards Stan Lee's or whatever it is where people carry them all day So these things take decades to switch You know what?

00:43:40 Speaker_06
I instantly started to think about is like how do you get? these restaurants or these grocery stores to start packaging things in Mr. Lid like a tote to say this is a reusable container. This is a Mr. Lid. It's super cool. It's super rad.

00:43:57 Speaker_06
And you can reuse this forever.

00:43:59 Speaker_04
I love it Michael I tried. I feel like a lot of restaurants are so they're very busy they're focused on their food they're focused on their experience when a guy wants to talk to them about containers.

00:44:11 Speaker_04
They kind of say okay not too I'm too busy, but I do think there is a world where a can. A restaurant would be excited by the fact that they're able to sell a reusable container. They can minimize how many of the singles that they're purchasing.

00:44:29 Speaker_04
They encourage customers to bring it back, possibly for a dollar off their meal, pay for the container. And one of the things we can do with the Mr. Lid is it's called IML. It's baked into the plastic graphics.

00:44:40 Speaker_04
So now you're putting a container in someone's house with your graphics on it, reminding them that you're a brand that cares about reusability. The optics of that are very positive.

00:44:50 Speaker_04
So we do, I will say we actually had a really recent development where a school district has called us and they're ordering 3,000 of our containers to hand out to young school children, elementary school children, to teach the benefits of reusability.

00:45:10 Speaker_04
And so when that occurs, that's in discussion right now, when that occurs, we're going to jump all over that with our press team and try to encourage other schools to follow that sort of behavior.

00:45:21 Speaker_06
I mean, that's what gets me excited. There's a couple of sayings and I can't, I can't pin the one for this one. One of them is, you know, education requires tuition and tuition is expensive.

00:45:32 Speaker_06
And so to get people to, to re educate them on how to use this product is hard.

00:45:38 Speaker_06
And, and that's where I like all the opportunity you have in the branding and the storytelling and creating this sort of reusable container and making it fun that I get excited about.

00:45:48 Speaker_04
I love it. I do too.

00:45:49 Speaker_06
Yeah.

00:45:50 Speaker_08
One of the things that I keep, where my brain keeps coming back to, and Michael, you're going to deal with this when your little girl is in just a few years, which is school lunches.

00:46:00 Speaker_08
And I know, and I'm looking at your website, I know you've got like a bento box insert and stuff. But that, to me, seems like a real opportunity to really use fun pops of color and maybe even like a, I don't know, maybe Mr. Lid is a character.

00:46:17 Speaker_08
Maybe Mr. Lid is like a monster. I like where you're going with that. Like a friendly monster with a lid head or something. Yep. Where it's like there's a character here and he's Mr. Lid and he's on the side of your bento box. I don't know.

00:46:35 Speaker_04
I love it. I love it. And so, Michael, Guy, I have three little girls, nine, seven, and seven. I've got identical twins. And I could tell you, kids are the biggest lid losers around.

00:46:48 Speaker_04
So making the product accessible, regardless of if it's for school-aged children or adults, having that design or brand affiliation or collab There's no reason we can't do a collab with like a famous singer or an NFL team.

00:47:06 Speaker_04
It creates that connection to the product. It's a bit of a signal. And it's really key to making this something that people actually want to take out.

00:47:16 Speaker_04
You know, the reason I think it doesn't occur now is there's a bit of a stigma around it, or it just doesn't look cool.

00:47:22 Speaker_06
I think, I think building on what Guy says, I'm like, Yeah, where do all these lids go? Mr. Lid can tell the story of where all these lids disappear into the world and why with Mr. Lid you don't have this problem.

00:47:34 Speaker_06
There's just so many fun stories to tell that way. That could be that could be a really great angle because in this world content matters. And so I think less about I know your initial question was, how do we change consumer behavior?

00:47:46 Speaker_06
And I think more about exactly what Guy's saying and you're building on, which is how do you create personality and personalization that gets people really excited and connected to this product and a part of their daily life?

00:48:01 Speaker_08
Yeah. I think there's a real opportunity to create some low-cost content here. None of you guys have teenage boys or middle school boys, so you may not know about Skibbity Toilet, but any parent listening knows what I'm talking about.

00:48:17 Speaker_08
It was teenage children or elementary school. This is a very weird phenomenon that started on the internet in the last couple of years.

00:48:25 Speaker_08
It's it's videos of a toilet saying skibbity toilet and every kid says this is so weird But I can see like mr. Lid, you know, like an animated mr. Lid kind of thing like Munching up, you know all this garbage and plastic or I don't know something like that like stop-motion.

00:48:41 Speaker_08
Mr Lid because it's attached to the thing.

00:48:44 Speaker_06
Yeah

00:48:45 Speaker_04
I love a guy and we're trying to create connection two ways. We want, we want the product to be fun, but we also want to let people know how serious we are about reusability.

00:48:55 Speaker_04
You know, one of my favorite emails is from a young woman who told me that her family bought Mr. Lid when she was 11. She's taken him to college with her. She's 22 now. They still work. She keeps one in her car to pay for the coffee, holds her change.

00:49:11 Speaker_04
It still works like they did on day one. And it just, It makes me so proud that, you know, we can do something to kind of mitigate how much of that garbage is being generated by throwaway containers.

00:49:23 Speaker_08
I love it. I love it. Paul, good luck. The brand is called Mr. Lid. We're gonna cheer you on, man. Good luck. Thanks, Guy. Thanks, Michael. Congrats. Thanks so much. Thank you so much for calling in. Yeah, I mean, do you know what I'm talking about?

00:49:37 Speaker_08
The skippity toilet? You probably don't.

00:49:39 Speaker_06
I do, actually. I've seen it before, but he needs skippity lid. Skippity lid.

00:49:43 Speaker_08
Skibbity lid. Skibbity lid. It's so crazy. One of my kids was saying it like, you know, about a year ago and I just didn't know it. It's so weird. We live in a weird time. It'll only get weirder.

00:49:56 Speaker_08
Michael, before I let you go, and I'm super psyched about your new brand and it's going to be awesome.

00:50:03 Speaker_08
But when you started this out, you know, Everlane back 15 years ago, if there was something you kind of wish you knew at the time that would have been helpful to you, what do you think that might be?

00:50:14 Speaker_06
I'm going to say, I'm a marketer. And so when we launched Everlane, it was so much about storytelling. And even when I do things today, it's always the positioning and the storytelling.

00:50:26 Speaker_06
And what I'll say is that what I think is so important, if you want to build an enduring brand, is that when you have phenomenal product that's differentiated, that's high quality or the, or the lowest price, whatever it is,

00:50:45 Speaker_06
that the product itself delights people. Boy, it makes marketing's job 10 times easier.

00:50:54 Speaker_08
Yeah.

00:50:55 Speaker_06
Everlane was lucky in the early days because we were at a, we had such a unique marketing position in a world that wasn't as crowded as it is today.

00:51:05 Speaker_06
And eventually we, our product caught up with our marketing, but that didn't happen for five or six years. And once we did, that's when the brand went from 50 million to 200 million in two, in three years.

00:51:18 Speaker_06
And so I think I, I go back to the product has to be amazing. And if the product's amazing, it'll go a very long way.

00:51:28 Speaker_08
Michael Prasman, thanks so much. Thank you. It's always fun. It's great having you back on. And by the way, if you haven't heard Michael's original How I Built This episode, you've got to go back and check it out.

00:51:37 Speaker_08
You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.

00:51:43 Speaker_06
So the strangest thing you would never expect if you were to build a brand today, and you start with a t-shirt, your next product might be denim. Our next product was literally ties and bowties. Ties and bowties? Ties and bowties.

00:51:58 Speaker_08
It just seems like a kind of a, just throwing a dart at a dart board. Let's do bowties.

00:52:02 Speaker_06
It is weird. Yeah. We didn't have a lot of connections and it was, we would have to wait six to 12 months to be able to launch a sweatshirt. And our alternative was we had a guy that could make ties and bowties in two months. And how did those do?

00:52:20 Speaker_06
We never made ties and bow ties again. Let's just put it that way.

00:52:25 Speaker_08
Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at GuyRoz.com.

00:52:33 Speaker_08
Each week it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever.

00:52:42 Speaker_08
And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them.

00:52:54 Speaker_08
And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at hibtid.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well.

00:53:13 Speaker_08
This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with music composed by Ramtina Rablui. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez.

00:53:22 Speaker_08
Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Chris Massini, Carla Estevez, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Katherine Seifer, Devin Schwartz, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on how I built this lab.

00:53:45 Speaker_08
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00:53:57 Speaker_08
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