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Episode: Advice Line with Gary Hirshberg of Stonyfield

Author: Guy Raz | Wondery
Duration: 00:44:59

Episode Shownotes

Stonyfield co-founder and former CEO Gary Hirshberg joins Guy on the Advice Line where they answer questions from three early-stage founders. Plus, Gary explains how a social mission can be a competitive advantage for a consumer product.First we meet Cate in Oregon, who’s trying to figure out the best way

for her leather goods company to stop cow hides from going to waste. Then Jamie in Santa Barbara, whose gourmet vegan camping meals are speaking to a customer demographic she wasn’t expecting. And Dianna in the Bay Area, who’s ready to hire a right hand for her seeded cracker company but isn’t sure where to look.Thank you to the founders of Range Revolution, Poe & Co. Folk Foods, and Cult Crackers for being a part of our show.If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298.And be sure to listen to Stonyfield’s founding story as told by Gary on the show in 2017.This episode was produced by Alex Cheng with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Cena Loffredo.You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram and sign up for Guy’s free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Summary

In this episode of 'How I Built This,' Gary Hirshberg, co-founder of Stonyfield, discusses his early challenges and the significance of resilience in entrepreneurship. He emphasizes consumer loyalty and the importance of social missions, suggesting that these elements can differentiate a product in a competitive market. Hirshberg provides tailored advice to three early-stage entrepreneurs: maintaining strong brand management while reducing waste, understanding target demographics for vegan camping meals, and effective hiring practices to support business growth. The discussions highlight how aligning marketing strategies with consumer values and sustainable practices can drive success.

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Full Transcript

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Learn more at klaviyo.com slash BFCM. Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges.

00:03:03 Speaker_03
Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show.

00:03:16 Speaker_03
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00:03:50 Speaker_03
Joining me this week is Gary Hirshberg. He's the founder of the yogurt and dairy company Stonyfield. Gary, thanks so much for coming back on to How I Built This. Great to have you.

00:03:59 Speaker_04
Good to be with you, Guy.

00:04:01 Speaker_03
You were first on How I Built This way back in the second year of the show, 2017. And it's amazing how you started the business as a one-cow operation on a run-down farm in New Hampshire.

00:04:13 Speaker_03
And of course, for those of you listening, if you haven't heard it, we will put a link to that episode in the podcast description.

00:04:20 Speaker_03
One of my favorite things about Gary's story was how many times, Gary, you guys almost went under, how much failure you endured in the first decade of trying to keep Stonyfield afloat.

00:04:32 Speaker_03
For example, at one point, I remember one of the dairy farms you were working with, like almost stole the company, the business. I'm laughing. It wasn't funny at the time.

00:04:40 Speaker_03
You had to borrow millions of dollars, including begging your in-laws to give you loans, almost ruined your marriage. But you made a product that people really liked. I remember you described it as ambrosia.

00:04:52 Speaker_03
Every time I see Stonyfield, I think of your voice saying, ambrosia. And that is ultimately what saved Stonyfield and then ended up turning into one of the biggest organic yogurt brands in the world.

00:05:03 Speaker_04
Well, I thought you were going to say that there were some times when we almost succeeded. That was actually more the ratio. We call ourselves a 40 year overnight success.

00:05:16 Speaker_03
It's like the Winston Churchill thing. You know, you'd gone from failure to failure until you succeed.

00:05:20 Speaker_04
I think the Churchill line is wisdom is something you get just after you needed it.

00:05:24 Speaker_03
Well, that's one, but there's the failure one, too, which I'm going to quote for you because I can't always remember it by heart. But the quote is, success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm.

00:05:37 Speaker_04
No loss of enthusiasm. Yes, that's the one.

00:05:40 Speaker_03
Yeah. Gary, before we get to bring in our callers, I'm curious because I think a lot of our callers today are trying to figure out the best sales channels for their products. And we'll address that.

00:05:52 Speaker_03
But at one point, I remember in our interview, you talked about how for your 30th birthday, you basically asked friends to go to their local market.

00:06:01 Speaker_04
Bread and Circus.

00:06:02 Speaker_03
Bread and Circus, okay. And you had them go in and ask them to carry Stonyfield yogurt. And it worked. The companies eventually called you and said, hey.

00:06:10 Speaker_04
It was my old ultimate Frisbee team who had come up to the farm to celebrate. We had finished milking. I asked them on a Sunday at my birthday party to go down and ask for the yogurt.

00:06:20 Speaker_04
And on Wednesday, the buyer called me and said, Gary, I don't know what's going on, but demand has gone through the roof. Get that yogurt in here right away. And we did, we delivered that afternoon.

00:06:30 Speaker_03
Okay. Great strategy. The retail landscape has changed a little bit since then. What would your general advice to founders be for trying to get their products into a retailer like that today, like a Whole Foods?

00:06:43 Speaker_03
I mean, does that same strategy still work?

00:06:46 Speaker_04
It really does, because in the end, the retailer and the manufacturer beholden to the very same client. The consumer is who we all work for.

00:06:55 Speaker_04
And so if you can, my advice to any entrepreneur trying to sell a CPG product, food or otherwise, is build loyalty.

00:07:05 Speaker_04
In Stonyfield's case, because of our gross margins, we never really had the ability to spend on advertising, but we were always happy to spend on influencers, bringing people up to the farms. We still do to this day.

00:07:17 Speaker_04
Pre-influencer marketing, before we even had that word. Well, yes. We were actually the first food company I know to hire a blogger back in the day. But the point is to talk to your consumer. Consider it a conversation.

00:07:30 Speaker_04
I call it having a handshake with your consumer. And whether that's on mission or on product or on taste or price, but you gotta have that loyalty and then they will pull it. They will help you to pull in.

00:07:43 Speaker_04
There's nothing better that you can say to a retailer than, hey, I've got 10,000 online consumers in your market. You've got a ready-made marketplace surrounding you.

00:07:55 Speaker_03
Yeah. You guys were an early pioneer in practices that are kind of the norm today, right? No pesticides, no hormones. You try not to depend on fossil fuels and at a certain point you were fossil fuel free.

00:08:09 Speaker_03
We've had versions of this discussion on the show before, and I'm curious on your take, which is how much do you think today consumers really care about these things to the extent that it actually can make or break

00:08:22 Speaker_03
a product or does it really ultimately come down to taste and value?

00:08:26 Speaker_04
It always comes down to taste, if it's food. I always used to say you could ship the yogurt 3,000 miles, but it was the last 18 inches that made all the difference.

00:08:35 Speaker_04
It has to, because you're not gonna get a second taste if it doesn't deliver on the first one. But honestly, mission, environmental, social mission, is probably more important today than it was even back then.

00:08:47 Speaker_04
We often joke that we had a wonderful company back then, just no supply and no demand. Nobody knew what we were doing when we were talking about organic and the need to reduce our carbon footprints and so forth.

00:09:00 Speaker_04
But today you have a generation of consumers who index extremely high on this stuff. In fact, they're a pretty demanding audience. They kind of want it all. They demand absolute transparency.

00:09:10 Speaker_04
on everything from animal cruelty or avoidance of cruelty to organics, avoidance of pesticides. Climate is extremely important. Equity, very important. And that's a real competitive advantage that wasn't an advantage back in my day.

00:09:27 Speaker_03
See, I'm really surprised to hear you say that because I look at like fast fashion brands like SHEIN, which have just exploded in growth, and that just runs counter to everything that you've said.

00:09:37 Speaker_03
I mean, I've seen I see a lot of consumer brands that really are doing well that don't do any of the things you're describing.

00:09:43 Speaker_04
Sure. I mean, look, it's all depending on your target. If you're seeking brand market leadership, if you're going to be trying to be number one, then of course, price, convenience, taste in the case of food are predominate.

00:09:56 Speaker_04
But if you're trying to build loyalty and with a higher price, lower gross margin item, then mission is your secret to success. That's your way of getting trial, getting reach,

00:10:09 Speaker_04
and ultimately getting that holy grail of consumer products, which is word of mouth.

00:10:15 Speaker_03
Gary, what do you say? Let's take our first caller. Wonderful. Okay. Hello, caller. Welcome to the advice line with me and Gary Hirshberg. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business, just a little bit.

00:10:28 Speaker_07
Hi, Guy. Hi, Gary. I'm so happy to be here with you both. My name is Kate Havsad-Kassad. I'm calling in from Bend, Oregon, and I'm the founder of Range Revolution.

00:10:39 Speaker_07
Range Revolution is a leather company which sources 100% of its hides from verified regenerative ranches.

00:10:46 Speaker_07
We were founded to address the massive waste dilemma that exists in the millions of hides which are thrown into the trash each year and to give consumers a leather product that they can feel good about.

00:10:56 Speaker_03
Wow. Okay. So welcome to the show. Thank you for calling in. Okay. So Kate, you guys basically take cow hides that are otherwise going to be just like incinerated or whatever, because like a lot of cows are killed for meat, obviously.

00:11:08 Speaker_03
And you turn them into like wallets and bags, essentially.

00:11:12 Speaker_07
Yeah, correct. Most people don't know this, but in current systems today, when we send a steer to slaughter, about 65% of the cattle carcass is being utilized.

00:11:23 Speaker_03
Yeah, wow.

00:11:24 Speaker_07
And then meanwhile, in the greater fashion movement, we have a giant globalized leather supply chain, which is quite opaque and oftentimes is coming from systems that lead to deforestation.

00:11:35 Speaker_03
Wow. Most of the beef that's consumed, it's just like the carcass is wasted. We're not using the, we're not turning into leather or anything. It's just being burned or thrown away.

00:11:44 Speaker_07
35% of that carcass is going to, quote, waste. And I say quote, because there's no such thing as waste.

00:11:51 Speaker_03
Why is that just so surprising to me? I mean, you would think that there's a lot of demand for leather goods out there.

00:11:57 Speaker_07
You know, it's just as the consolidation of the industry has led to, say, these big four packers that really dominate the industry, we've lost a lot of the systems of aggregation that really focus on that middle, the missing middle, middle agriculture and middle processors.

00:12:10 Speaker_07
And so there's a need to rebuild that middle system of aggregation to get these hides back into the system.

00:12:16 Speaker_03
Wow. So, Kate, how did you start this business?

00:12:19 Speaker_07
So this all really starts because my husband and I have been farming and ranching together for 11 years. And we've grown our farm and ranch called Cassade Family Farms, which is organic and regenerative.

00:12:30 Speaker_07
We've grown it from a three acre market farm doing CSAs and farmer's markets. And so now we manage about 1400 acres. And as first generation farmer ranchers, I like to say we've learned not just how to grow food, but what it takes to save a farm.

00:12:44 Speaker_07
And in the same era of the past decade, I've been operating a custom hat business where I build custom Western hats and fedoras.

00:12:53 Speaker_07
And it really just came down to, I thought I was building something for Havestad Hat Company, and I wanted to find hides that align with my ethos, how I source my food and how I live the rest of my life.

00:13:04 Speaker_07
And as soon as I started looking for regional hides, you know, regenerative hides, something that might have traceability, I realized it did not exist. And so that started this journey.

00:13:14 Speaker_03
Wow, I'm looking at your website and beautiful bags and purses and phone cases and wallets. And you're selling these direct to consumer only right now.

00:13:24 Speaker_07
Yep, we launched direct to consumer softly in December of 2023. And then we launched our first kind of brand campaign earlier this year. And we got our first handful of independent boutique retailers this summer.

00:13:37 Speaker_07
And this will get into our question, there's kind of a second arm of this business that is percolating in my mind. That has to do with both improving our cost of goods and also moving more of these hides.

00:13:49 Speaker_03
Yeah, so go ahead and ask your question.

00:13:51 Speaker_07
Yeah, OK. So we've been approached by a lot of people who are so excited about the value proposition of these hides that they would like them for their business.

00:13:59 Speaker_07
And whether it's an interior designer, a furniture maker, other bag designers or makers, I see this B2B play opportunity where we can provide a finished leather option to somebody.

00:14:12 Speaker_07
And as a small startup with limited resources, it's always a question of where we divide our attention and our resources.

00:14:20 Speaker_07
And so I'm curious, both you, Guy and Gary, how you would think about dividing our attention on building the direct-to-consumer brand with finished products versus starting to really funnel resources into the material play.

00:14:35 Speaker_03
So you basically have more hides than you need right now.

00:14:39 Speaker_07
Absolutely. There's a lot of volume that, you know, even when range reaches $10 million in sales by 2028, we're still barely touching the volume that really needs to be pulled out of the supply chains, even just on the West Coast.

00:14:53 Speaker_03
All right. You're projecting $10 million in sales in four years.

00:14:57 Speaker_07
Yep.

00:14:57 Speaker_03
I love it. Okay. But right now you've got a warehouse full of hides.

00:15:02 Speaker_07
Well, I don't have a warehouse full of them yet. I have processors beating down my door saying, come take my hides, come take my hides. But I know what's in that pipeline, and it's large.

00:15:12 Speaker_07
And the more we move, it improves the cost of goods for the brand, of course.

00:15:18 Speaker_03
Gary, let's tackle Kate's question, but you may have some questions for her before we do that.

00:15:23 Speaker_04
Yeah. Hey, Kate. First of all, obviously we are connected in lots of ways here. I love your, there is no such thing as waste. I add to that there's no such thing as a way. It's another myth. So I know we speak the same language and obviously the mission is

00:15:40 Speaker_04
close to my heart. What of those two of the bifurcated choices you just laid out, which one excites you the most? What stirs you?

00:15:50 Speaker_07
because I'm such a producer first, farmer first human. I just want to see more of these hides pulled out of the trash.

00:15:57 Speaker_07
But if I were to add the caveat, in order for this movement to truly scale, we need the consumer mindsets to shift in order to care about natural fibers again and not think that it's evil or bad.

00:16:11 Speaker_07
And so the brand has such a huge role to play in that narrative.

00:16:14 Speaker_04
Yeah, it does. I think your cred is your brand. By the way, I think your cred is also that you're farming and ranching. Your story is really, really important and central. But I agree with you.

00:16:26 Speaker_04
There's a bigger mission here than just selling purses and wallets. But it does, I think, your cred and probably your cash flow depend on the brand being strong.

00:16:37 Speaker_04
And so I guess, since I think your question is how do you divide your time and resources, that's your key. I would be very focused on making sure you have an excellent brand manager, CEO, head of sales, chief offensive officer, whatever you call it.

00:16:52 Speaker_04
But I would not allow your attention to move off to the mission that gives you so much passion, which is moving these hides, without being absolutely sure that the mothership is being completely

00:17:04 Speaker_04
Taking care of because you know that's your cash flow and yeah, you know entrepreneurs.

00:17:09 Speaker_04
I always call us pathological optimists We tend to think there's sort of no limits to what we can do So I really appreciate that you recognize that there are limits and also recognize that you can't do too many things Look, I chaired the national campaign to label GMOs.

00:17:25 Speaker_04
It was a major distracting But the luxury of taking that time to work on a mission that is basically a generational mission comes from being sure that the mothership, like I keep calling it, is taken care of.

00:17:38 Speaker_04
The more I'm hearing you, I would make sure that the 10 million is in the bag, no pun intended. I would really concentrate for the next year

00:17:47 Speaker_04
on the things you need to do to cement and lock in that growth trajectory, which includes that right hand that you can appoint to take up the critical roles you play.

00:17:58 Speaker_04
I would become a sponsor of an environmental media association, of environmental working groups, earth dinners, award shows. I would make yourself the boutique. I would really, really use all your talents and wisdom

00:18:11 Speaker_04
and lock in the brand trajectory, be sure the gross margins are protected, be sure you've got a defensive business as well as a niche before allowing yourself to slip off too far.

00:18:23 Speaker_04
And by the way, you might even consider, maybe there's a nonprofit to the Hyde thing, maybe there's other partners for you. My first $10 million, I was just nose to the grindstone.

00:18:35 Speaker_04
But once I got there and I could hire good, talented people, I was freer to start focusing on the mission, which in turn came back and fed the product, right, for the yogurt sales. Yeah.

00:18:47 Speaker_03
Gary, I have a question about branding here, because at the end of the day, I mean, as beautiful as these bags are, in this category, it's all about brand, right? Like why do people buy a Kate Spade bag or a Tory Burch bag, right?

00:19:01 Speaker_03
Because of the brand that they built.

00:19:03 Speaker_04
I mean, this goes back to the opening conversation in our in our intro chat. You know, there's a changed consumer out there. Yeah, I think what Kate is on to, I think this is a fashion statement being truly green, truly clean.

00:19:18 Speaker_04
And let's not forget, Kate is providing a critical currency for these farms. So I think the mission here is the brand.

00:19:26 Speaker_04
I think it's selling hard on the big picture, the big story of what you stand for that's going to earn you your long-term sustained niche.

00:19:35 Speaker_03
So I agree with you, but I'm going to take a slightly different perspective here, which is to say that these bags, especially the women's handbags, right? You need to see these bags on women in New York and Los Angeles.

00:19:49 Speaker_04
Yeah.

00:19:49 Speaker_03
Yes. Or in Paris. And so is there a world where range revolution is sort of the all-encompassing company, but you might consider changing the brand name to your name. Your last name is Havestad, Cassad, or something like that.

00:20:04 Speaker_03
You've got a nice European or sort of a cool last name that sounds like... She's got the Kate part already. Right, Kate. I mean, it kind of sounds like a cool... name, like it could be from Denmark or something.

00:20:17 Speaker_03
I don't know, maybe play around with that idea because Range Revolution is what you're doing.

00:20:23 Speaker_03
But I wonder whether it might sound too much like the cowboy hats and in a sense that may limit the kind of consumer that would otherwise be attracted to these designs.

00:20:38 Speaker_04
Look, I actually disagree a little bit here because I think that reigned revolution is your brand is your mission.

00:20:46 Speaker_04
The reason I slept into my chatter a few minutes ago, this environmental media association, this is all the, the environmental stars in Hollywood stars who lend their time and efforts to really green stuff. You should be the handbag of that thing.

00:21:01 Speaker_04
You know, you should be the want to handbag at the Oscars.

00:21:05 Speaker_03
Yeah.

00:21:05 Speaker_04
Uh, I think, you know, you're not just another fashion brand. You're truly fashionable, which is you're building a future for the farms and for all of us.

00:21:13 Speaker_04
And I would really concentrate on, uh, you know, get on goop or whatever, uh, but on celebrity endorsement, you know, a Michelle Pfeiffer or somebody perhaps. And I think that will carry you into, uh, onto the red carpet.

00:21:27 Speaker_07
I was just thinking through, first of all, some of my favorite How I Built This episodes, and Gary, yours is right up there, but as is the Kate Spade, Tory Burch, Eileen Fisher, and of course, they're all names of those founders, so I totally hear what you're saying, Guy.

00:21:41 Speaker_07
But at the same time, I selfishly want to start this beautiful revolution, and I want people to feel that that fire, that fashion can be, design can be for good, and the most radical fibers are the ones we already have, and let's start thinking that way.

00:21:56 Speaker_03
I think it makes a lot of sense. I mean, you can experiment with different ways of trying to bring it in front of consumers, but at the end of the day, you've got a beautifully designed line.

00:22:05 Speaker_03
And now the question is, how do you get it into the right hands, right? It's a, the hardest thing about what you've done, what you're going to do is building a brand. It's turning that into a brand that people know and want to buy.

00:22:16 Speaker_07
Yeah. Maybe by the next time we talk, you'll see Gwyneth Paltrow with a regenerative leather tote on her arm.

00:22:23 Speaker_03
Maybe, maybe Kate, the brand is called Range Revolution. Good luck, congrats.

00:22:27 Speaker_07
Thank you both so much.

00:22:28 Speaker_03
Thank you. Good luck. I mean, Michelle Pfeiffer, who is great, but Gary, I mean, you gotta get with the- Well, it happens.

00:22:38 Speaker_04
Michelle is on the EWG board and I'm a fan.

00:22:41 Speaker_03
Michelle Pfeiffer, no one knows Michelle Pfeiffer anymore. I mean, she's amazing. You gotta get this in the hands of the, like Addison Rae or one of these TikTokers.

00:22:52 Speaker_04
Yeah, I don't disagree. And, you know, again, this is this sort of theme, I think, that happens as entrepreneurs with a mission.

00:23:00 Speaker_04
You know, the brand or the company, sometimes they forget, right, that that's actually what enables them to get to their platform. So important that she doesn't put the cart before the horse. For sure.

00:23:12 Speaker_03
All right, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

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00:26:19 Speaker_03
Welcome back to The Advice Line here on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Gary Hirshberg. He's the co-founder of the organic yogurt and dairy company Stonyfield. Gary, what do you say? Let's take another call.

00:26:32 Speaker_04
Here, here.

00:26:32 Speaker_03
All right, let's bring in our next caller. Hello. Welcome to The Advice Line. You are on with me and Gary Hirshberg. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

00:26:43 Speaker_01
My name is Jamie Poe. I'm from Santa Barbara, California. I'm the co-owner and co-chef of Poe and Co. Folk Foods. We make vegan dried camping meals. They're shelf-stable. You just add boiling water and eat them directly from the pouch.

00:26:56 Speaker_03
Amazing. Okay. Well, welcome to the show, Jamie. Thank you for calling in. Okay. How did you start this? Where'd the idea come from? Are you a camp, like a backpacker or camper?

00:27:05 Speaker_01
So that will lead to my question, but I am not a backpacker. I am just your all around adventure buddy who likes to go camping on the weekends. I have always had a Monday through Friday or Monday through Saturday job.

00:27:18 Speaker_03
What's your day job, if you don't mind me asking?

00:27:20 Speaker_01
Yeah, so my husband and I work together and we own a catering company in Santa Barbara.

00:27:27 Speaker_03
So that makes sense that you started this as a sidebar. Tell me, what was the impetus or idea? You've got a catering business, you're probably super busy, you're probably working probably every weekend, I imagine.

00:27:38 Speaker_03
But what was the idea around this camping food or the dried food?

00:27:41 Speaker_01
So a little background, my husband and I have a lot of food experience, but over 50 years of cooking experience between the two of us.

00:27:49 Speaker_01
And when we decided to have kids about six years ago, we tried to figure out how two chefs could still make a living and work. And, um, And that's what started the catering business. And we've done pretty well with that over the years.

00:28:06 Speaker_01
And, um, as the years have gone on and as our kids have gotten a little older, we have been thinking about what we can do to not work most weekends or at least Saturdays. We kind of actually don't even work that many Sundays right now.

00:28:20 Speaker_01
And, you know, we thought a lot about the fact that we have the service-based business, but what can we do as a product? And it kind of led us to the fact that we both love the outdoors, and that brought us to this category.

00:28:33 Speaker_03
That's awesome. Where are you selling them right now?

00:28:36 Speaker_01
So we sell them direct to consumer. We sell them in about 25 indie places, and then we're about to launch on Amazon.

00:28:45 Speaker_03
And I know they're a pretty new business, just maybe a year and a half old, but have you guys managed to crack, I don't know, 25, 50 grand in sales yet?

00:28:54 Speaker_01
We're about there, and I like to say we're much more tortoise than hare.

00:28:59 Speaker_03
Great.

00:29:00 Speaker_01
It is very much our side hustle, and it is one we want to see grow, and we want to be able to become even more choosy about what catering events we take on and supplement it with running this business.

00:29:12 Speaker_03
Cool. Well, Gary Hirshberg was the OG tortoise to scale that into Stonyfield. What's your question for us today?

00:29:20 Speaker_01
How do we reach our target audience who doesn't seem to know our category exists? You know, I think what we've come to the crossroads, which, which we're seeing is that when we develop these, we develop them for your kind of comfort camper.

00:29:34 Speaker_01
So, I mean, in California, car camping is huge. And what we have found is that the category itself is much more known and sought after by kind of more hardcore people. So the backpackers in particular, and.

00:29:52 Speaker_01
you know, what they want from the product, they want more protein, they want more calories.

00:29:58 Speaker_01
And so we're sort of at this point where, you know, when we design these, we design them for all these other people, but the backpackers and the ones who know about this category, the ones who have found us.

00:30:11 Speaker_03
Alright, so you design these for families who are driving to a campground for the night, but actually the people who want this are backpackers who are going deep into the backcountry and they want something light to carry.

00:30:23 Speaker_03
But the problem, if I'm reading this correctly, the problem for them is there's not enough calories and protein in what you offer so far.

00:30:31 Speaker_01
Yes. So the backpackers are the ones who have really found us and they, you know, they're like great new backpacking food, but it doesn't have this, this and this. And we're like, well, it's really something that we thought more of.

00:30:46 Speaker_01
Like the young family is going to a campsite after school on the weekend and people who just want convenience food to have with their bottle of wine while watching, you know, the waves on the Pacific.

00:30:57 Speaker_03
Right. Gary, questions for Jamie?

00:31:00 Speaker_04
I mean, you've got a number of attributes here. You really are both chefs, and so you've got a gourmet aspect.

00:31:09 Speaker_04
I see in your background that you've been on Michelin star restaurants, and then you've got convenience, and then you've got gluten-free, right? And you've got taste.

00:31:19 Speaker_04
So if you have 10 seconds with a consumer to say, this is why you should have it, what's the elevator pitch? What's the one thing you tell people?

00:31:28 Speaker_01
You can have this food in the outdoors. You don't need to worry about a cooler or refrigeration, and it's ready in 20 minutes.

00:31:36 Speaker_04
And why you versus Mountain House or one of the- Patagonia Provisions or whatever, yeah.

00:31:42 Speaker_01
They're all vegan. They're designed by chefs to add boiling water to, so culinarily, they just make sense. They're delicious. They're flavorful. They're better for you.

00:31:54 Speaker_01
And they don't contain dried animal chunks that you're trying to rehydrate with water. OK.

00:32:01 Speaker_03
And I'm looking at them right now. They're about 12 bucks a pop. So that's a pretty good price for a full meal per person.

00:32:08 Speaker_03
I mean, I would think that the channel would be like the REIs and the sports based, you know, the outdoor stores, right, that people go to. Have you guys, I mean, is there one down in Santa Barbara or? There is. Yeah.

00:32:23 Speaker_01
Yeah. So the local buyer there was actually super interested in bringing in our product, but they can't do it at a local level if it's a topical or a food. So when we first started, we applied there and we got denied and I haven't revisited that. Hmm.

00:32:38 Speaker_04
Could I just stand back for a second? I'm Googling around while we're chatting here, and there's this report you should get called Data Intello. The global outdoor camping food market size was valued at $2.5 billion last year. Wow, that's big.

00:32:53 Speaker_04
It's going to be $4.8 billion by 2032, growing at a compounded growth rate of 7.5%. So congratulations, number one, you're in a growth category. But here, catch this sentence.

00:33:04 Speaker_04
One of the most significant opportunities lies in the development of new and innovative food products that cater to the evolving preferences of consumers. There's a growing demand for camping foods that align with these dietary preferences.

00:33:13 Speaker_04
Manufacturers can capitalize on this trend by introducing new product lines that cater to vegan, gluten-free, et cetera. So some of this depends on how you're talking about yourself. You're not just your average add water. You're gourmet.

00:33:28 Speaker_04
You're delicious. And when we were opening up this call, we were going back over some early Stonyfield successes. And I'll tell you, it all came down to getting consumers to pull in.

00:33:41 Speaker_04
REI or your camping stores will carry you if consumers come in saying, hey, do you have that? Poe and Company stuff. So I'm googling again. You've got Santa Barbara County Hikers Club, 3,310 members right there. Can you do an event for them?

00:33:57 Speaker_04
Can you make a, give some donations to help them raise money? Or can you do a contest, maybe go out camping with you guys for a night? I mean, people think automatically, like, how do I get into retail? But remember that in retail, there's consumers.

00:34:12 Speaker_04
who are getting their information, you know, in lots of places and how can you go directly to them?

00:34:18 Speaker_04
I would work hard on that succinct pitch, that one sentence, you know, sort of like tired of compromising with extra chewy campaign meals or I loved your dried animal. You know, that's a that's a good one. You know, why not eat gourmet in the outdoors?

00:34:35 Speaker_04
I sort of.

00:34:36 Speaker_03
Gary, I'm looking at these flavor, black garlic ramen and coconut chickpea stew. You know, one of the things that you asked, Jamie, was should we lean into the people driving the Subarus and going for day hikes or the hardcore campers?

00:34:50 Speaker_03
I think there's a value in at least trying one SKU that's a hardcore protein brand.

00:34:56 Speaker_03
Like each packet has 10 grams of protein and, you know, where you really lean into the idea of like, this is not only delicious, but it's going to really give you sustenance.

00:35:05 Speaker_05
Okay.

00:35:05 Speaker_04
I do think, uh, I'm on your site. I think testimonials would be a really important thing to have there. Again, this is going back to who your consumer is or even testimonials about you. And that's the other thing I want to say, uh, on a recent episode.

00:35:21 Speaker_04
Guy was interviewing my friend, Jim cook, you know, Sam Adams, and Jim was really emphasizing the personal stories and, you know, he used his story. Uh, your story is your unique asset.

00:35:33 Speaker_04
And I think you've got a really unique story and the idea that, man, I mean, isn't it kind of cool? These two gourmet chefs, you know, who liked to camp have now made this product. I mean, that says so much.

00:35:43 Speaker_04
So I'd try to, um, maybe invite a food writer to come camp with you, get your story out there a little bit. A lot of entrepreneurs are, are shy about that, but you've got a hell of a good one and really a compelling reason to try the product, I think.

00:35:58 Speaker_03
Gary, you know, it's always a trade-off. How much do you put on the label and how much do you leave off? Is there value?

00:36:04 Speaker_03
Do you think there'd be value in these guys putting just a line there that says, like, made by Michelin-trained chefs or something like that at the top? Yes.

00:36:13 Speaker_04
But even better would be if, I see you worked for Danny Meyer, maybe my old friend Danny, maybe a quote from Danny. I mean, maybe Tom Colicchio, maybe a peer chef out there with a quote that sort of implies, says it all right there.

00:36:28 Speaker_04
You know, a must have for every meal. But I will say less about the package and more about the website because this is, you're not really as much of a retail play as you are a direct, right, to consumer. And so I think

00:36:42 Speaker_04
Having your site dimensionalized with, like I say, chefs talking, hikers talking, active people talking. And again, I think, gosh, you know, for me, the thought that there's a lot of commodity products out there, but you're not a commodity.

00:36:57 Speaker_04
You're chefs who want to have something great for yourself. Well, that's what I want to have.

00:37:00 Speaker_01
I like that.

00:37:01 Speaker_03
Agreed. The brand is called Po & Co Folk Foods. Jamie, good luck. Thanks so much for calling in.

00:37:07 Speaker_01
Thank you, Guy. Thank you, Gary.

00:37:08 Speaker_03
Yeah, good luck. Thank you. I mean, $4 billion, who would have thought, in camping food?

00:37:17 Speaker_04
That's right. And again, that means there's a lot of commodity, there's a lot of stuff out there, there's always room for something better.

00:37:24 Speaker_04
I also think, by the way, a lot of times these retailers who say they can't carry it, they might allow you to do a demo or something, you know, an enterprising manager, give a little trial outside, you know, out in the parking lot.

00:37:39 Speaker_04
just see if it creates a little excitement for them and interest for you. Just don't take no for an answer. Right. If you don't ask, you don't get is my favorite line.

00:37:49 Speaker_03
All right. We're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This.

00:38:08 Speaker_03
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00:38:44 Speaker_03
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00:38:57 Speaker_03
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00:39:10 Speaker_03
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00:39:30 Speaker_03
It is not intended for diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes. For more information, please visit HelloLingo.com slash US. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking calls with Gary Hirshberg.

00:39:53 Speaker_03
So, Gary, why don't we bring in our next caller?

00:39:55 Speaker_04
Let's go.

00:39:56 Speaker_03
All right, let's bring in our next caller. Hello, welcome to the advice line. You're on with Gary Hirshberg. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

00:40:03 Speaker_02
Okay, hi, Guy and Gary. My name is Diana Darr. I'm the CEO and founder of Colt Crackers, an organic seeded cracker company.

00:40:13 Speaker_02
We bake and manufacture in our commercial kitchen in Berkeley, California, and we ship and sell to about 500 retailers across the country and on our website.

00:40:22 Speaker_03
Awesome. Welcome to the show. Thank you for calling in. First of all, just full disclosure. I live in the Bay Area, so I know them. I've tried them. I bought them. But describe what they are. They're crackers. But what makes them different?

00:40:35 Speaker_02
So they're made with six seeds, sunflower, sesame, chia, hemp, pumpkin and flax. So they are naturally gluten free, vegan, organic.

00:40:46 Speaker_03
Got it.

00:40:46 Speaker_02
One flavor is made with cornmeal and corn flour. And the second flavor is made with cassava flour, which is a root vegetable sustainably grown.

00:40:55 Speaker_03
Got it. So one is totally grain free with the cassava.

00:40:58 Speaker_02
Yes.

00:40:58 Speaker_03
And tell me how you launched this. Were you in food before?

00:41:03 Speaker_02
So I had gone to culinary school and I had baked, and I couldn't support myself working in restaurants, so I got into e-commerce and marketing.

00:41:13 Speaker_02
And when I was in my 50s, I was let go from my job, and a mom at my daughter's school suggested we should make these seeded crackers. And I was excited to start a new business, which combined the baking background and my marketing background.

00:41:28 Speaker_02
And then a shout out to Berkeley. I think it's the perfect place to start a food business. They really embrace me here. I was at the farmer's market, and I'm in a lot of local stores. And people are just really supportive of local makers and good food.

00:41:44 Speaker_02
And along the way, I bought out my business partner, and now seven years in, the business is humming along and growing.

00:41:51 Speaker_03
And give us a sense of what, I mean, have you guys cracked a million dollars in sales yet? I mean, that's a big... Pun intended. Milestone.

00:42:00 Speaker_02
We will at the end of this year.

00:42:01 Speaker_03
Congrats. Okay. And tell us what question you have for us today.

00:42:06 Speaker_02
So my question is, every hire I have made along the way has been so I can focus on the next thing to grow the business. And I now have a strong but lean team of four people, and they bake and package and manage the store accounts.

00:42:21 Speaker_02
And because my team is so small, I end up doing everything else. So it's sales, which I love. HR, not so much. Social media, purchasing, and on and on.

00:42:34 Speaker_02
And my question is, how do I hire someone who has those skills to take on many of those day-to-day things so I can focus on that next thing?

00:42:41 Speaker_03
All right. Lots to unpack there. Gary Hirshberg, let's bring you in. I'm sure you've got some questions for Diana before we tackle her question.

00:42:48 Speaker_04
I do, Diana. Nice to meet you. And I look forward to trying your crackers. I guess the question is what are those things that you want to be freed up to do? Is it sales or where will you focus?

00:42:59 Speaker_02
So it's sales and it's also recipe development. So creating a third cracker flavor. I need time to work on it.

00:43:06 Speaker_04
Yeah. And is your impediment scale and profitability? You don't have enough cash or is it more that you haven't been able to find the right person?

00:43:15 Speaker_02
It's not knowing what that role is. Cash is not an issue. Scalability is not an issue. I could double the business with a few more production workers.

00:43:25 Speaker_02
It's really taking those day-to-day things that were not on my to-do list yesterday that have to be taken care of. The website goes down and I need to fix it. Something breaks in the kitchen, I'm the one that has to do it.

00:43:38 Speaker_02
And I don't know if it's a group of consultants that I take on, or it's one person who can do some HR, some operations, some facility managing. I don't know how to find that sort of octopus.

00:43:53 Speaker_04
But you are comfortable that you have enough cash to pay a market salary for that role?

00:44:00 Speaker_02
Yes.

00:44:01 Speaker_04
Okay, great. Because I actually have lived your experience, Diana. There were all kinds of administrative things that not only did I not like, I just wasn't good at them, right? Right. And after four tries, I finally found the right person.

00:44:16 Speaker_04
And I would call her my partner today. In other words, she became that important to me and ended up being with me for almost 30 years. But it took a lot of trial and error.

00:44:27 Speaker_04
And I actually called it a controller, but it turned out she was really a COO, a Chief Operating Officer, which of course would have been too fancy a title for the, early going.

00:44:39 Speaker_04
Diana, by your own admission, you don't yet know exactly what it is that you're looking for. It's okay to be open about that. You need some definitions around it. I think HR and administration, something along those lines.

00:44:54 Speaker_04
You're looking for somebody who's decent with accounting, who's decent with numbers, who's probably more precise and therefore legalistic and therefore okay with contracts and negotiations and things like that.

00:45:08 Speaker_04
One thing I really recommend here is networking the daylights out of, I mean, think of your marketing, your positions, like you're thinking about marketing your product.

00:45:18 Speaker_04
I think it's okay to be out there talking to people, talking to your banker, talking to your accountants. There's lots of folks who I call corporate refugees looking to get into something like this.

00:45:29 Speaker_04
The other good place to look is often community colleges. I find there's often a lot of diamonds in the rough.

00:45:36 Speaker_03
You're talking about professors, people who are adjuncts there or teaching?

00:45:40 Speaker_04
Yeah, I'm talking about that, but I'm also saying, you know, do you have listing yourself in there? All the students there are looking for positions. Right. And define, you know, a little bit about who you are and what you're looking for.

00:45:53 Speaker_04
But again, it's less about skill set and more about the kind of person.

00:45:57 Speaker_02
Good thoughts.

00:45:58 Speaker_04
The best people I found, and again, this goes back to the Stonyfield story, we've always been very mission driven. Our whole thing, and you have a mission too. Don't underestimate the power of that mission to attract the right person. Right.

00:46:12 Speaker_03
I totally agree with that. The idea that you're looking for a Swiss army knife and somebody who's passionate about the product. Whenever we look for people who work on the show, we want people who love what we do. It's critical.

00:46:23 Speaker_03
Not necessarily the best producer, editor off, you know, we can make them that. but somebody who's really passionate about what we do. We want them to believe in our mission.

00:46:32 Speaker_04
I have one last source for you that's going to seem like totally crazy. But you mentioned you're selling at Erwan and Berkeley Bowl and local grocers. Talk it up there.

00:46:43 Speaker_04
You may find people there who are looking to make a change or who talk to their own customers. And they may become advocates for you. They may say, hey, there's this awesome lady with this really cool cracker company. It's got real legs.

00:46:55 Speaker_04
People in retail know a lot of people and have a lot of surface area.

00:46:59 Speaker_03
Gary, let me ask you this question. When looking for somebody like that, does Diana have to give that person some skin in the game in order to ensure that that person is going to really supercharge her business?

00:47:12 Speaker_03
In other words, not just a salaried employee, but somebody who has some equity?

00:47:16 Speaker_04
I wouldn't give away too much at the outset. I really believe in dating before you get hitched and so much of it is chemistry.

00:47:24 Speaker_04
But I would say to answer you, Guy, when you do find that right person and you want to keep them, that's where what I call the three-legged stool comes in.

00:47:33 Speaker_04
You need to have, obviously, a market-based salary so they're not going to be looking elsewhere for a better pay. They should have some kind of equity incentives or options, if possible, and

00:47:46 Speaker_04
I also think profit sharing, some kind of annual incentives, frankly, that's better shared with the whole team, is also important. I call that the three-legged stool.

00:47:55 Speaker_02
Great. Thank you.

00:47:57 Speaker_03
Awesome. Diner Dar, the brand is called Cult Crackers. Good luck. Congrats.

00:48:01 Speaker_04
I'm going online to order some right now.

00:48:04 Speaker_02
Thank you.

00:48:05 Speaker_04
Get some cheese and we have a party. Mm hmm. Well, you know, crackers, crackers are so, it's so competitive.

00:48:12 Speaker_04
So good on good on her that she sort of fits into the earlier discussion that, you know, she wants to really build a word of mouth, build passion from the consumer.

00:48:22 Speaker_03
Gary, before we let you go, uh, what, when you look back on your time, starting at Stonyfield, you know, in your twenties, is there something you, you wish you would have known that would have made it a little bit easier?

00:48:33 Speaker_03
Or I don't know that we're just smooth the way a little bit more for you that you kind of wish you knew.

00:48:39 Speaker_04
Yeah, I wish I understood that being an entrepreneur is really being a pathological optimist, and the most dangerous word in my vocabulary was yes. Doing fewer things better. I can point to the marketplace that was a challenge.

00:48:57 Speaker_04
I can point to lots of external factors, but I have to hold up the mirror too and tell you that a big part of our curve to getting on our own feet was our own excessive imagination and optimism taking on too many things.

00:49:12 Speaker_04
I can't do it all, which ones should I do? I think that again gets back to that Churchill quote about the wisdom when you needed it, after you needed it. Yeah.

00:49:21 Speaker_03
Gary Hirshberg, thanks so much.

00:49:23 Speaker_04
Guy, always a pleasure. Thank you.

00:49:26 Speaker_03
It's Gary Hirshberg, co-founder and former CEO of Stonyfield. And by the way, if you haven't heard Gary's original How I Built This episode, you have got to go back and listen to it. It is so good. We will put a link to it in the podcast description.

00:49:39 Speaker_03
And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview. On many occasions, I would tiptoe over

00:49:46 Speaker_04
to the office to call my mother-in-law to have a chat to see if I could borrow another $3,500 or $2,500 to make ends meet.

00:49:54 Speaker_04
And one night I heard the click click of call waiting on my mother-in-law's phone and Meg was calling from the house to say, Mom, don't do this.

00:50:01 Speaker_03
Wait, your wife was telling her mom not to lend you money for the business? Right. Because it sounds like maybe she didn't believe in it. Well, she had no reason to believe in it. It was insane. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week.

00:50:15 Speaker_03
Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at GuyRoz.com. Each week it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever.

00:50:30 Speaker_03
And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them.

00:50:42 Speaker_03
And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-WONDERY. 433-1298 and leave a message there, and we'll put all this in the podcast description as well.

00:51:00 Speaker_03
This episode was produced by Alex Chung with music composed by Ramtine Arablui, it was edited by John Isabella, and our audio engineer was Saina Lafredo.

00:51:09 Speaker_03
Our production staff also includes Carla Estevez, Chris Messini, Devin Schwartz, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Katherine Seifer, Kerry Thompson, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson.

00:51:20 Speaker_03
I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the Advice Line on how I built this lab. If you like how I built this, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

00:51:42 Speaker_03
Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

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