Advice Line with Chris Ruder of Spikeball AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast How I Built This with Guy Raz

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Episode: Advice Line with Chris Ruder of Spikeball

Author: Guy Raz | Wondery
Duration: 00:48:54

Episode Shownotes

Spikeball founder and CEO Chris Ruder joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three early-stage founders. Plus, Chris shares an early-days strategy that ended up revealing surprising intel about his core customers.First we meet Jimmy in California, who’s wondering how to find passionate managers as he

scales his chain of parkour gyms. Then Cindy in Massachusetts, who’s looking to expand her running brand beyond its niche with a new product. And Nigel in New York, who’s poising himself for a comeback after his Rockaway Beach surf shop went under last year.Thank you to the founders of Freedom in Motion Gym, Pen and Paces, and Station RBNY Surf Shop for being a part of our show.If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298.And be sure to listen to Spikeball’s founding story as told by Chris on the show in 2023.This episode was produced by Sam Paulson, who also composed the music. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neal Rauch.You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram and sign up for Guy’s free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Summary

In this episode of 'How I Built This', host Guy Raz speaks with Chris Ruder, CEO of Spikeball, as they tackle entrepreneurship advice for early-stage founders. Ruder reflects on how he built Spikeball into a recognized brand and shares strategies for identifying core customers. The episode includes discussions about scaling a parkour gym, expanding a running brand, and recovering from a closed surf shop. Key insights emphasize the importance of customer engagement, community support, and innovative marketing approaches.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Advice Line with Chris Ruder of Spikeball) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_05
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Learn more at klaviyo.com slash B-F-C-M. Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges.

00:03:39 Speaker_05
Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show.

00:03:52 Speaker_05
Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com and make sure to tell us how to reach you.

00:04:11 Speaker_05
And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at gyros.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it.

00:04:26 Speaker_05
Joining me this week is Chris Ruder, the founder and CEO of Spikeball. Chris, welcome back to the show. Thanks so much. Happy to be here.

00:04:35 Speaker_05
Chris, you were first on How I Built This back in 2023, and you told us all about how you turned spike ball into a brand and how you helped turn the sport of round net into a professional sport.

00:04:47 Speaker_05
And by the way, if you haven't heard that episode with Chris and spike ball, we'll put a link in the show description.

00:04:53 Speaker_05
And I guess we should explain to people who haven't heard the episode that spike ball is basically, and you guys listening have seen it. If you're at the beach or at a lake or something or a park, it's basically

00:05:03 Speaker_05
four people standing around what looks like a little trampoline and spiking a ball into that trampoline. And it's like sort of a, how do you describe it? It's like, it's like a volleyball meets.

00:05:14 Speaker_03
The one line I like to use is if volleyball and four square had a baby.

00:05:18 Speaker_05
Oh yeah, that's it. That was it.

00:05:19 Speaker_03
Yeah. It's essentially identical to two on two volleyball. Rather than hitting a ball over the net, you're spiking a ball off a net that looks a lot like a trampoline.

00:05:29 Speaker_05
Chris, you painstakingly built this brand into a mainstream game, starting with like PE teachers, ultimate Frisbee players, Christian youth groups. You weren't connected to any of these groups.

00:05:41 Speaker_05
You just found that that's where the product was resonating. How did that happen? I mean, and when that happened, how did you lean into those into those groups?

00:05:53 Speaker_03
Yeah, absolutely. In the first few years of the business, you could only buy Spikeball on Spikeball.com. And we had the benefit of I was able to communicate literally with 100% of our customers. I could email them and ask questions.

00:06:06 Speaker_03
And nearly every single customer I replied saying, hey, thanks for buying Spikeball. I'm going to mail it tonight or tomorrow. It should show up in a few days. By the way, if you don't mind me asking, how did you hear about it?

00:06:18 Speaker_03
And that's where I heard a lot of people said, oh, I'm a PE teacher, and I'm always looking for new games. And new games are ways to engage kids that normally don't engage. Or I'd hear from people saying, oh, I was at an Ultimate tournament.

00:06:34 Speaker_03
I saw some people playing there or I'm a camp director at a Christian camp or something along those lines But I asked the question enough times over the years where I was able to identify these themes in these buckets You know and I also thought that you know when I launched I was like, yeah volleyball players are gonna love this game and that was just what I thought and

00:06:54 Speaker_03
they wound up hating it. But it was these groups that I never would have thought of in a million years that loved it. And once I did identify those, then I started getting to know them. Some of them I'd say, hey, would you mind, can we get on a call?

00:07:09 Speaker_03
I've never heard of this thing called Young Life. Like, what is it? And can we, can I learn from you? And oh, by the way, do you have any other friends in that community that I can maybe send a free set or two to?

00:07:20 Speaker_03
So that free product was really critical in the early days of spreading the word.

00:07:26 Speaker_05
Yeah. And Young Life is a massive Christian youth group, which, and again, you weren't involved with this. It's not like something you came...it just kind of came to you.

00:07:34 Speaker_05
I know that since we've talked, and actually around the time we talked, you were introducing new products like paddles, which I think are interchangeable with pickleball, right?

00:07:44 Speaker_05
They're paddles that you can use to play spikeball, but you can also use them to play pickleball.

00:07:47 Speaker_03
They're designed for more casual play. Yeah. They're not like, if you're a hardcore pickleball player, you're going to get a real paddle, of course, but yeah, they're very versatile.

00:07:55 Speaker_03
And, you know, I was just at one of our tournaments this last weekend and watched some of our top players ever just kind of playing off on the side with paddles and laughing and diving.

00:08:04 Speaker_03
And, um, we're just trying to find new fun ways to use our existing stuff. Yeah.

00:08:09 Speaker_05
Chris, I think it's probably time that we take in our first call. What do you think? Let's do it.

00:08:14 Speaker_03
Yeah.

00:08:14 Speaker_05
Let's do it. Okay. Hello, caller. Please introduce yourself. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a tiny bit about your business.

00:08:23 Speaker_07
Hi, Chris and Guy. My name is Jimmy Davidson. I'm calling in from Riverside in Southern California. I'm the founder of Freedom in Motion.

00:08:31 Speaker_07
We're a chain of parkour gyms where we teach kids, teens, and adults the sport of parkour here in our indoor obstacle course gyms.

00:08:39 Speaker_05
Wow, parkour, like people dancing off walls and jumping and swinging. And this is like gymnastics meets like urban landscape.

00:08:48 Speaker_07
It's like Spiderman without the webs. It's like skateboarding without the skateboard. We actually try to distance ourself from gymnastics pretty heavily. So we're not gymnastics at all.

00:08:59 Speaker_07
But, you know, we take the outdoor environment, the walls, the railings, the parking curbs. And our mission is to transform all of that into a playground. So cool. So you, and you're based in Riverside and how many gyms do you have?

00:09:12 Speaker_07
We have three gyms currently, one in Murrieta, California, Riverside, California, and Loma Linda, which is one of the blue zone cities. So that's kind of a cool mix right there. Yeah. And we intend on opening many more gyms.

00:09:23 Speaker_07
So hopefully, uh, I actually live in Oakland despite my gyms being down there, California. Uh, and I hope to have a gym up here soon too.

00:09:30 Speaker_05
All right. So, Jimmy, tell me how you how this started. I mean, it's a great idea. I think of like when my kids were little, we used to take them like jimboree and, you know, and like rock climbing walls, which are awesome.

00:09:40 Speaker_05
But I'd never heard of a parkour gym. How did you get this idea?

00:09:45 Speaker_07
In high school, when I had first discovered parkour, this is right around when YouTube kind of first came out, so found parkour through that. In high school, we had a parkour club and it became the largest club on campus at 150 kids.

00:09:59 Speaker_07
So imagine like a wave of 150 kids coming to climb all over your stuff. It was a lot of fun. You would just go to like a park or you would just go to anywhere, an outdoor space.

00:10:10 Speaker_07
Yeah, like the urban architecture in different areas provides different opportunities for movement and play. And you can work on balance on those handrails, you can work on climbing over walls on these walls over here.

00:10:21 Speaker_07
And so, and here's kind of how we got to me opening a gym, it got to the point where I was teaching kids, like parents were paying me to coach their kids one on one, and I would take them to just some parks outside.

00:10:33 Speaker_07
And you probably can imagine that sometimes the local city government didn't like us climbing all over their city hall architecture in the front. So I had a meeting with the mayor at that time. This is when I was 19. I'm 31 now.

00:10:47 Speaker_07
And I had this adorable presentation on like, here's parkour. You know, I like printed stuff out of my mom's computer and was like, let's have a parkour park, just like a skate park.

00:10:57 Speaker_07
And the mayor at the time was like, I don't know what parkour is, never heard of it. Sounds like a liability nightmare. You're best off opening up in the private sector.

00:11:06 Speaker_07
So after I went and Googled what does private sector mean, I figured out we have to open up our own gym. And, you know, then and I'm 19, so like then it was a whole hurdle of like business landlords, like taking me seriously as a 19 year old.

00:11:21 Speaker_07
They and also not knowing what parkour was. How do we find the money for that? Like it was a whole challenge. But in 2014, by the time I was 21, we were able to open our first gym in Myriada.

00:11:32 Speaker_05
Wow. How did you finance that?

00:11:34 Speaker_07
Yeah, a few ways. So I had been coaching a lot of kids doing a lot of private lessons and things. So I had a few thousand dollars from that. I had a job on the side, a few thousand dollars from that. We had a couple people give us some money.

00:11:46 Speaker_07
We had an original investor give us some money. Our business had one iteration and then it failed and then we reopened. So there's a little bit of play in how the financing worked out there.

00:12:00 Speaker_07
Um, but yeah, so a few sources and we were very scrappy with it.

00:12:03 Speaker_05
Wow. So then you are, you open this gym and describe for me like what it looks like. Actually, you know what, I'm on your website now, so I can see it freedom in motion.

00:12:12 Speaker_05
I see like all kinds of like bars to hang off and, and padded things to jump onto and off of and ramps and yeah.

00:12:22 Speaker_07
It's like a 3D obstacle course. We have walls, we have different platforms. And it's not like Ninja Warrior, where Ninja Warrior has like bungee cords and weird rotating things. Parkour is actually, it's a martial art, right?

00:12:37 Speaker_07
It's the martial art of movement. just not fighting. So our indoor gyms simulate the outside architecture of like walls and rails and things to jump and land on.

00:12:48 Speaker_07
And so our indoor parkour course just has all sorts of shapes and heights and things for us, our coaches, to train our students the whole variety of movements that come with parkour.

00:12:59 Speaker_05
That's so cool. And before I forget, what's your question that you brought for us today? Absolutely.

00:13:05 Speaker_07
So, our parkour gyms thrive on a super passionate team. We need these passionate people to inspire a passion for movement and for play within our students. We have three gyms now.

00:13:18 Speaker_07
I personally plan on growing this to $100 million company with a lot of gyms. So my question is, how can I invest in my most passionate employees to grow their skills?

00:13:28 Speaker_07
And how do I scale the recruitment of passionate and skilled people as we continue to open more parkour gym locations?

00:13:36 Speaker_05
All right, I've got some thoughts. I want to turn it over to Chris Ruder of Spikeball. Chris, thoughts, questions for Jimmy?

00:13:42 Speaker_03
Yeah, number one, congrats, Jimmy. This is such a cool concept. The fact that you don't have one, you've got three locations, like that's incredible. So you're starting to scale, you're finding what's working, what's not.

00:13:54 Speaker_03
I love that you didn't give up after the first one didn't quite work. You've got that grit, which is absolutely required. And most importantly, you're getting kids moving and being social and together.

00:14:07 Speaker_03
Spikeball, that's something we're trying to do as well, but I applaud anybody that is doing that. So that's so cool.

00:14:17 Speaker_03
On the topic of how to engage employees, is it safe to assume a decent amount of your early employees were already into parkour or kind of knew a decent amount about this before you showed up?

00:14:32 Speaker_07
Yeah. Yeah. And you're totally right to clarify that. I opened the gym with a handful of my best friends, honestly. And so, it's been a decade since we opened. So, many of those friends have like trickled off.

00:14:45 Speaker_07
A lot of those friends, none of us knew what we were doing, right? So, we all had like giant expectations of that we would be millionaires in six months or less.

00:14:54 Speaker_07
And when that didn't come to fruition, you know, like a lot of them just aren't around anymore.

00:14:59 Speaker_07
So it's like, as we grow and we get multiple locations, I need managers who get the passion that we want to transform kids lives that they see the world as a playground.

00:15:10 Speaker_07
But also they have the technical chops to like manage multi locations, run HR and, and train like integrity and a culture of high performance into the coaches below them.

00:15:21 Speaker_07
Like, it's on that higher end that it can be tricky, like finding that skill passion balance.

00:15:27 Speaker_05
Jimmy, you're CEO of this, right, of the business? Correct, yeah. And you've got three locations. I imagine that probably a significant number of your trainers are college-aged. Is that fair to say? Yeah, 20-year-olds, yeah.

00:15:42 Speaker_05
And so right now there's, I mean, decent turnover. Maybe they might work for you for a year or two at most.

00:15:49 Speaker_07
It's like half and half. Some of them, yes, they come in, work for a while, and then leave. And then the most passionate ones stick around for four, five, 10 years.

00:15:57 Speaker_05
And the question is, how do you invest in those folks to really help them help you?

00:16:02 Speaker_05
There's a book, I mean, and some people might kind of recoil when I say it, but it's the most successful quick service restaurant in the world in terms of the yield sales per square foot is Chick-fil-A.

00:16:18 Speaker_05
They beat everybody, Shake Shack in and out, McDonald's, even though they don't have as many locations, a typical Chick-fil-A does about $8 million in revenues, massive.

00:16:27 Speaker_05
And the founder, Truett Cathy, wrote a book many years ago, I think it's called Eat More Chicken, right? What's interesting about their approach, forget about everything else that you might think about Chick-fil-A.

00:16:38 Speaker_05
They have a system that basically develops talent from within. So if you go and work there as a checkout clerk and you say, hey, I want to manage the store, they will help you get there. Or you say, I want to own one of these one day.

00:16:52 Speaker_05
They have a very, very specific program that develops talent from within and grows people from within. In-N-Out Burger does a similar thing.

00:17:01 Speaker_05
It's worth looking at, even though you're doing a different kind of business, because you're so young, right, still, as a CEO, and you're still trying to figure out the model here.

00:17:10 Speaker_05
But basically, you need to create a system that identifies those people and then starts to give them incentives to stay. So equity in the business, some kind of ownership as you grow, incentives. to help you grow.

00:17:30 Speaker_05
So if you hit five locations or 10 locations, they get another point of whatever it might be that creates value for them over time.

00:17:41 Speaker_05
And I think that for you, you want to really read widely about what other people have done and how they've done it to give you a framework, because ultimately you're going to have to go to lawyers and other people to help you actually codify this.

00:17:54 Speaker_05
But the principles around it are not that complicated. It's identify great people, give them a clear path to succeed and to grow, and incentivize them so as they help you grow, they benefit as well.

00:18:09 Speaker_02
Okay.

00:18:10 Speaker_07
And I think you're spot on get like essentially an internal leadership university. He baked into our, back into the parkour business. Um, yeah, I think that's awesome.

00:18:21 Speaker_07
I think the world of parkour could really benefit from having like a baked in kind of professional incubator.

00:18:27 Speaker_03
Jimmy, as you think about your march to 100 million, and I love that you've got that goal, is it a franchise model you're thinking? Is it corporate owned? Or how do you think about these future locations?

00:18:41 Speaker_07
Yeah, so I am right before kind of really needing to pick that path, right? Like I see Starbucks as the corporate locations, right? As I see, you know, Chick-fil-A, you know, lets an owner own a single location, like you just said, Guy.

00:18:56 Speaker_07
And there's a few different ways to splice it up. I don't know yet. Ideally, we do it all in corporate because it's working with kids. So, I want to really make sure that it's safe and effective and has that culture.

00:19:11 Speaker_07
The culture is so vital because if a parent walks into the gym and the culture is even just a little off, it doesn't work at all. So, I guess my anxiety there is if we have franchises, I don't have like a total control over that.

00:19:25 Speaker_03
Yeah, Chick-fil-A's made it work, right? There's a million franchises that have done it.

00:19:29 Speaker_03
I understand the sensitivity around being with kids, so if I were in your shoes, I would study as many businesses that have physical locations, multi-location, and work with kids, whether that's a nursery school, or jump zones, or the inflatable house places, or whatever.

00:19:48 Speaker_03
Like, copy their playbook. And I also love, Jimmy, that you mentioned the, like, employee university thing.

00:19:54 Speaker_03
I think of mcdonalds is the other hamburger university so what is your version of that and i think step one is it sounds like you've already started.

00:20:02 Speaker_03
Documenting everything that's working if you think of that star employee right now what is it that makes she or he great. Write that down. That is that persona you want to try and multiply throughout your three locations and your fourth, fifth, sixth.

00:20:20 Speaker_03
And the more you can define that playbook, right? Yeah. The more you can document what's working, I think the better off you'll be. Okay.

00:20:29 Speaker_05
Jimmy Davidson, Freedom in Motion Gym.

00:20:31 Speaker_07
Good luck, man. Congrats. All right, Chris, Guy, I really appreciate it. And Guy, when I hit 100 million, I have a straight on goal to come back as a... To come back.

00:20:41 Speaker_05
We're going to have you back. Okay. Thanks, Jimmy. All right. We're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice. Stay with us.

00:20:51 Speaker_05
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00:24:01 Speaker_05
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Chris Ruder. He's the founder of the outdoor sports game Spikeball. What do you say, Chris? Should we take another call?

00:24:11 Speaker_03
We'd love it.

00:24:13 Speaker_05
Hello, caller, welcome to the advice line on how I built this URL with me and Chris Ruder. Please introduce yourself, tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

00:24:23 Speaker_01
Hi, Guy. Hi, Chris. Thanks for having me today. My name is Cindy Chin Smith. I'm calling in from the Boston, Massachusetts area. I am the founder of Pen & Paces. We create cheerful and uplifting products for runners.

00:24:35 Speaker_01
And we are best known for our Yell My Name bib kit, which allows marathoners to put their name on their shirts so they can encourage spectators to yell their name on the race course.

00:24:46 Speaker_05
I love it. Okay, so Cindy, thank you for calling in. So basically, it's a kit that you can add to the bib. And the bib is like when you run a marathon, there's rules.

00:24:54 Speaker_05
You wear the bib that they give you, but you are allowed to attach your name to the bib?

00:25:01 Speaker_01
Yes, exactly. As long as it doesn't cover the number of the official bib, you can put it on top or on the back of your shirt or on your shorts.

00:25:09 Speaker_05
Which I guess I imagine is super meaningful when you're like mile 18 and you're just dying and someone's like, go Cindy, just a random person because they see your name. Absolutely.

00:25:19 Speaker_01
It's the best kind of motivator and the morale booster at the end.

00:25:24 Speaker_05
Yeah. Have you been in that situation yourself?

00:25:27 Speaker_01
Yeah, I actually ran my fifth marathon last year in Chicago. And absolutely, the crowds on the major marathons are electric. And when they yell your name, it's like nothing else.

00:25:40 Speaker_05
How did you get into this business? Have you been in apparel or in sports? What's your story?

00:25:48 Speaker_01
No, yeah, I actually picked up running as an outlet to deal with stress and burnout while working in the Bay Area in tech. And I just needed something to, you know, go get outside and not be in my computer screen.

00:26:00 Speaker_01
And I fell in love with the sport and the community and so much so that I wanted to create a business out of it to uplift and support other runners.

00:26:08 Speaker_05
Where were you working in tech?

00:26:09 Speaker_01
I worked at Google for a couple of years and then startups in fintech since then.

00:26:14 Speaker_05
And so you completely left that behind and said, you know what, I'm gonna start this running gear brand that has like positive messages that you can basically attach or wear or whatever.

00:26:26 Speaker_01
Exactly. I had my son two years ago and that's when I had the choice of starting my own business or going back to just a corporate job. But it was kind of a, you only live once kind of thing.

00:26:39 Speaker_01
So I wanted to take this opportunity to see what I can do with this business.

00:26:44 Speaker_05
And what, so besides the name, like you can pin your name to your bib, what else, what other things do you guys sell?

00:26:51 Speaker_01
Yeah, so our kind of next most popular line is shoe bags, because, you know, runners have these really expensive sneakers now.

00:26:59 Speaker_01
And so I have introduced a travel sneaker bag that is kind of more fun than traditional kind of, you know, just plastic bags that people put their sneakers in for travel.

00:27:10 Speaker_05
Got it. OK. And Cindy, what's your question for us today?

00:27:14 Speaker_01
Yeah, so my initial product, the Yell My Name bib kit, is very, very niche. Even in the running community, it's only for the major marathons. So I'm looking to expand into other products like these shoe bags and other kind of race day travel kits.

00:27:30 Speaker_01
And so I want to make them just not plain and boring, like running gear is currently. And so what advice would you have for me to market a product that's fun and uplifting and the designs are their kind of main differentiator?

00:27:44 Speaker_05
All right, cool. I'm going to bring you and Chris. You, who has created a light-up spike ball kit that enables people to play in the dark, so you know a little bit about accessorizing things.

00:27:56 Speaker_05
Do you have any questions for Cindy before we tackle her question?

00:28:01 Speaker_03
Number one, I wish this product was around years ago when I ran the Chicago Marathon, because if it were, maybe I would have broken the four hour mark, which was my goal, and I did not, unfortunately. You know what?

00:28:14 Speaker_05
We shouldn't laugh. Four hours, super impressive.

00:28:17 Speaker_01
Super impressive, yes.

00:28:18 Speaker_03
Thank you. Thank you. I'll take it. Number one, I love it. Can you share a bit on the sales mix? So it is the vast majority of your sale, the name tag, is it the shoe bag, or what's the general breakout there?

00:28:33 Speaker_01
Yeah, I would say 95% is coming from the Yell My Name bib kit. And I introduced other products, but the main next category were these shoe bags. But it's not very big right now. It's about 5%.

00:28:47 Speaker_05
Got it. And can you give us a sense of how have you broken $25,000 in sales? Yeah, we have.

00:28:55 Speaker_01
And so we're seeing a lot of growth this year, especially. We've grown year over year 50%. And then we're looking to grow a lot more in the future.

00:29:04 Speaker_05
And selling entirely direct to consumer?

00:29:06 Speaker_01
Entirely direct to consumer. I've done a little bit of pop-up shops, a little bit of wholesale, but mainly on my website, Instagram. And we started doing Amazon as well.

00:29:16 Speaker_05
And you're financing this whole thing yourself.

00:29:18 Speaker_01
Exactly.

00:29:19 Speaker_05
And so presumably your budget is pretty tight, right? Because you can't you can't spend tens of thousands of dollars or maybe even thousands of dollars on marketing.

00:29:26 Speaker_01
Yeah, exactly. I want to keep it lean and I don't want to overspend. I want to do, you know, kind of spend wisely as well.

00:29:34 Speaker_05
But it sounds like the shoebag is really where you see the growth.

00:29:37 Speaker_01
Yeah, I do see there's potential there. And it's also a bigger market opportunity, right? There's not a ton of marathoners out there who are running major marathons, but everybody has shoes. Even non-runners travel with sneakers and things like that.

00:29:51 Speaker_01
But I do see that there's an opportunity for demand and also for gifting.

00:29:58 Speaker_05
Yeah, I mean, this is actually a not, it's not an uncommon problem. I would say this is in the focus group of one, namely me, which is every time I pack and travel, I'm like, oh, do I put my shoes this way?

00:30:10 Speaker_05
Do I, I don't want the bottom of my shoes touching my clothes. So like, how do I pack them? And I know people listening to this right now are picturing this because they're going through the same thing.

00:30:20 Speaker_05
You're packing your suitcase and you're like, I don't want the bottom of my shoes, that sticky gum or, dirt on them to touch my clothing. So I'm going to angle them like this.

00:30:29 Speaker_05
But a shoe bag, a proper shoe bag, that would still give me room in my suitcase, that makes a lot of sense.

00:30:37 Speaker_01
Absolutely. And the other trend that I'm trying to hop on is that grocery bags are being banned from stores, and most people put them in grocery bags. But really, to be more sustainable and eco-friendly, a reusable travel shoe bag makes a lot of sense.

00:30:54 Speaker_05
All right. So, Chris, as somebody who cultivated these niche groups, you know, found out who's buying at church youth groups, and you're like, well, let's lean into that. And PE teachers, let's lean into that.

00:31:05 Speaker_05
I mean, right now we're thinking about runners because Cindy's a runner. But I mean, there's got to be other folks you should be targeting.

00:31:13 Speaker_03
Yeah, I mean, I would, I don't want to say go deep and wide, but I guess as you're still in the early days and exploring, I think that's probably the route.

00:31:23 Speaker_03
So one, how many marathon runners are there in the U.S., let alone worldwide, but I'd say start in the U.S. I'm assuming it's massive.

00:31:32 Speaker_03
I was just in Chicago recently and it was a few days after the marathon and seeing the amount of people walking around with branded gear. It was even like four or five days after the race and people were still wearing it. I was seeing it everywhere.

00:31:46 Speaker_03
So just like you go to a concert and you have no problem spending $50 on a t-shirt because it's this special event. I think like people are in a different frame of mind around these events, especially when it's a massive thing like a marathon.

00:32:01 Speaker_03
So can you do more on-site sales there? Um, or maybe go there and witness with a pen and a paper, like what other product ideas can you get? Um, that would be my version of going deep. Um, and then the wide is what other events have

00:32:21 Speaker_03
bibs, or like the name kit. I think of mountain bike races.

00:32:26 Speaker_05
All triathlons, all kinds of things.

00:32:29 Speaker_03
All that, yeah. So is that the wide version? And with the shoe carrier, I mean, my god, any place that has cleats, running shoes, whatever, can you make a different version for each sport? And

00:32:43 Speaker_03
I think as long as you're making something that where you've identified a need and you're not like, oh, I think this could be cool. I'll just do it because I like it.

00:32:52 Speaker_03
In my experience, identify needs that other people have or a problem that you think you can solve and run straight in that direction.

00:33:02 Speaker_05
Yeah, I agree. I also think that, and Cindy, you probably already thought of this, but I do think that runners are a tribe, a really passionate tribe. As you know, you're a runner yourself.

00:33:15 Speaker_05
And I feel like to get to that tribe, you've got to be in the shops too. You've got to be able to get into those shops. And many of these shops are independently owned.

00:33:26 Speaker_05
You know, the proprietors in there, they're interested in showcasing things that are going to be interesting to their customers. And I would really, here in Boston, I imagine there are amazing running stores there. Have you gone to any of them?

00:33:39 Speaker_01
Yes, I've reached out to probably half of the running stores in the United States, and there's been some good reception on some of my smaller products.

00:33:48 Speaker_01
But yeah, I guess the question would be, any kind of tips in getting into these stores that may not initially show interest?

00:33:57 Speaker_03
We weren't in any stores for our first five years. 100% Spikeball.com. For us, we were so focused on building the brand, building the community, and building sales at Spikeball.com, eventually all the stores called us.

00:34:16 Speaker_03
When Dick's Sporting Goods reached out and said, we'd like to carry your product, I thought it was a joke or somebody messing with me.

00:34:22 Speaker_03
Same thing when Walmart did it, when Target did it, and all sorts of these small mom and pop toy shops and sporting goods stores. So from what I understand, that's not normal. But man, did it work for us.

00:34:36 Speaker_03
Because I think if I would have called them in the early days, they would have said, what is this trampoline? Nobody knows what it is. And I think what resulted in them calling us, they saw this sort of cult-like following.

00:34:50 Speaker_03
They saw this quirky thing that people were into it. It wasn't Chris Ruder trying to tell them, the store, that this was an amazing thing. There was all this outside validation on social media and elsewhere proving that the world is into this.

00:35:05 Speaker_03
The more of that you can get, the easier it will be to get into stores.

00:35:10 Speaker_01
Yeah, that makes sense. Sounds like build the brand and they will come.

00:35:15 Speaker_05
I also think there's value in seeing if you can just... meet somebody face to face. If one of these store owners locally would be willing to meet with you, just to see you and to understand your passion and that you're legit, you're a runner.

00:35:30 Speaker_05
You're not like some, you know, dilettante coming into this. This is your passion. And this is a problem that you are solving for yourself and you believe for other runners.

00:35:40 Speaker_05
And I think there's a lot of value in just trying to go one store at a time in person, at least initially.

00:35:47 Speaker_01
I love that idea. I got to try that.

00:35:48 Speaker_03
Absolutely.

00:35:50 Speaker_05
Yeah.

00:35:50 Speaker_01
Thank you.

00:35:51 Speaker_05
Cindy, the brand is called Pen and Paces. Thanks so much for calling in. Congrats. Thank you.

00:35:56 Speaker_03
Thanks, Cindy.

00:35:58 Speaker_05
All right. We're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

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00:37:47 Speaker_05
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking calls with Chris Ruder, the founder of Spikeball. So Chris, let's bring in our next caller. Sounds great. Hello, welcome to the advice line.

00:38:01 Speaker_05
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

00:38:05 Speaker_00
Hey, Guy. Hi, Chris. I hope you guys are both doing well. My name is Nigel Lewis, and I'm calling from Rockaway Beach, New York, currently. I'm the founder of Station Surf Shop.

00:38:16 Speaker_00
I started back in 2016, and we're a traditional surf shop catering to the New York City surfer. We sell surfboards, wetsuits, wax, leashes, everything you would find at a normal surf shop if you lived in

00:38:31 Speaker_00
Southern or Northern California or Hawaii you would find here you can take the subway to the beach here So we do rentals like you would expect we do a unique thing called surfboard lockers because a lot of people in New York have small apartments or or Husbands or wives that don't want surfboards in the apartment but what

00:38:49 Speaker_00
I'm most proud of with the shop has been just the ability for people who kind of look like me to walk in and see someone that doesn't traditionally look like who they would see behind a surf shop counter.

00:39:01 Speaker_00
So that's been what I'm most proud of and being able to facilitate that a little bit for this community.

00:39:07 Speaker_05
Awesome. Well, thank you for calling into the show, Nigel. All right. So Rockaway Beach Surf Shop sounds like an awesome community. Tell me, how long have you been surfing?

00:39:18 Speaker_00
Yeah, so I grew up surfing. I'm originally from Barbados, been surfing since I was 10. And it's slightly different there because in Barbados, it's a water lifestyle.

00:39:25 Speaker_00
So I'm actually very used to being in the ocean and swimming, diving, surfing, that type of stuff.

00:39:30 Speaker_05
And I always think of the Ramones when I think of Rockaway Beach. Yeah, I think everybody does. Everybody does. Yeah, I'm probably the only one. And what's your question for us today?

00:39:44 Speaker_00
So I started this business and brought in some partners to help me just kind of financially get it going. My background is pretty deep in the surf and skate world. I've worked for a lot of brands.

00:39:56 Speaker_00
Been a sales rep and been into a lot of surf doors up and down the East Coast. That's what I did for work for quite a number of years.

00:40:01 Speaker_00
So I understand what that looks like, but I financially just, you know, I grew up pretty poor and kind of just grinded to make what I had.

00:40:07 Speaker_00
So when I opened the shop, we did pretty well, but my partners always seem to leave just because they have other interests that they're involved in and they're not committed to the grind.

00:40:17 Speaker_00
So my last partner left and I had to buy him out and get it done. But it put me into a spot where I unfortunately had to close the shop.

00:40:25 Speaker_00
I'm in a process now of reopening we were lucky enough to secure a partnership with Paragon sports in New York City in Union Square to do a pop-up like they like what we're doing They heard the story and they were like, hey, we'd love to give you a home until you figure it out but this was a pretty important space for me and for the community and for all the organization that we supported and it's gone and it hit me very hard and I have the

00:40:49 Speaker_00
The drive to kind of get it going again, but I'm just starting over, you know Like financially trying to get the money back up and this time I'm looking into it with no partner. So How do you deal with?

00:41:01 Speaker_00
Loss our numbers were good and it didn't close due to lack of business being good It's it's more just the amount of payout I had to do.

00:41:09 Speaker_00
I couldn't sustain it after giving out that much money How do you deal with that to where you feel motivated, you know and

00:41:16 Speaker_05
So you had the store. Yes. The station surf shop in Rockaway Beach. You closed it. When did you close it? In December. In December. OK. And now you're trying to reopen it. Yes. And it was successful and people loved it. And you had you sold apparel and stuff.

00:41:36 Speaker_05
And I'm actually I see you have an Instagram page up still. But now you're trying to figure out how to reopen it. And your question is, how do you how do you kind of plow through failure?

00:41:48 Speaker_05
So first of all, I just I really appreciate you calling because you know, people call into the show with like, hey, how do I scale this? And how do I market this? And you're like, we failed. And how do I recover from that?

00:42:01 Speaker_05
And it's such a critical question because, you know, a lot of people think how I built this is about success. Oh, success, it's not. It's actually about setbacks, mistakes, and failures.

00:42:11 Speaker_05
And I say this over and over again, because I think the best entrepreneurs, Chris Ruder is one of them who's had many failures on his path to success. Without those failures, you don't learn.

00:42:24 Speaker_03
Yeah, a lot of big shows and media you'll see, you'll only hear the positive and, oh, our growth chart was nothing but up and to the right the entire time. That's BS. That's BS. Yeah, yeah.

00:42:38 Speaker_03
So I could do a couple episodes of just the last couple years what we've been going through and, holy smokes, it's hard. Not everybody is cut out to be an entrepreneur. So I applaud you for giving a shot.

00:42:51 Speaker_03
And seemingly, you're dusting yourself off and saying, I'm going to try it again. And that's incredible.

00:42:58 Speaker_05
Nigel, the first thing they need is a pep talk, OK? And then we're going to get down to brass tacks here. I think about John Foley. John Foley was on our show in 2019, OK? And he founded Peloton. And Peloton was the hottest company during the pandemic.

00:43:15 Speaker_05
You couldn't get a Peloton. At one point, he was worth almost a billion dollars, and he lost almost all of it, actually. And I recently read an article in the Wall Street Journal where he basically said, look, I lost virtually all my money,

00:43:31 Speaker_05
But he has started a new company around rugs, around sort of disrupting that market. And I love the energy and the spirit there, you know, because a lot of people laughed at him. Oh, John Foley. He doesn't care. He's like, no, no, it's fine.

00:43:45 Speaker_05
I had a setback. Peloton was amazing. Lost it all. But I learned a lot. I'm going to bounce back and I'm going to build this next thing. And he's fully into it.

00:43:54 Speaker_05
I actually think that's really inspiring because a lot of people are rooting against him, but I wouldn't, you know, especially given his track record. And it sounds like you had a really good track record here.

00:44:04 Speaker_05
I mean, seven years in business, sustainable store. Okay, you sat back. It was, you know, there are a variety of reasons, but most businesses don't make it past five years. But the fact that you've got a second chance now. That's really exciting.

00:44:18 Speaker_05
And so, what I would say is, really think about what you learned. Really spend time doing a self-critique in a very constructive way. Write down the things that you don't want to do again. Right.

00:44:36 Speaker_05
And really use that seven years, those seven years as a gift that you were given, this gift to know what not to do in the second coming of this, right? The rebirth of it, right? Does that make sense?

00:44:50 Speaker_00
Yeah, yeah, I mean it makes complete sense and and the thing with myself is that I'm I call my philosophy I'm a realist so if this thing wasn't working I get it right and I'm smart enough to understand that there's many factors that affect a brick-and-mortar retail store and I address those in my business plan and so on and I Really appreciate what you said because it does feel like I've learned a lot and I am looking to to

00:45:16 Speaker_00
dust myself off and come back, honestly, because the community is asking for it. I mean, there's three other surf shops here, and everyone is like, when are you reopening?

00:45:24 Speaker_00
And the emails are coming in, and Paragon has been doing relatively well with the pop-up that we're doing there. So I feel like the writing's on the wall. It's like, hey, this is just a step back up and keep going.

00:45:36 Speaker_00
But sometimes just the motivation for that, like the pep talk was helpful, and I definitely will take your advice. literally write down the things that I think maybe I could do better going forward.

00:45:50 Speaker_00
But yeah, it's just, I was always curious what the mindset is from people who are currently successful having failed to get back on that horse and really kind of not feel this beaten down.

00:46:03 Speaker_00
It and then also to like financially to how do you deal with that?

00:46:07 Speaker_00
you know because once you fail like everything crumbles right like your business your personal credit is tied into the Business part of it if you're just a single person doing it and there are all these things I'm trying to navigate and it's a little bit harder But it's almost it's where did you said have something to prove it?

00:46:20 Speaker_00
It's almost like I have something to prove to everyone who thought oh, well, I knew this wasn't gonna work. There's way more people will work. So I'm just, again, trying to navigate that and understand the best way to go about it.

00:46:34 Speaker_03
I so love that you have a community rallying around you. Yep. I love that you have a partner like Paragon. Our product has been in Paragon for years and they are fantastic. I so love that store.

00:46:47 Speaker_03
If you've never been, it's this quirky, massive sporting goods store in Manhattan. And what you have is I think what most brands would kill for. You have people asking for the product, essentially your store.

00:47:04 Speaker_03
you're down, they're rallying around you, and this comeback is not this fabricated thing that a fancy ad campaign brings you back. It's going to be the will of the people. So I think the question going through my mind is, how can you leverage

00:47:21 Speaker_03
this group of people that want you to come back? One area of my mind goes to financially. So is there a Kickstarter or something that you get started? Or is it a private conversation with a few of these folks that- Become shareholders.

00:47:36 Speaker_03
Yeah, may be able to buy a chunk of the company. And you're asking about finances. Is there a CFO that works for some other company but loves your store that would be your wingman or wingwoman to kind of help you?

00:47:50 Speaker_03
I'm guessing there's a lot of gold in this community. And if you start asking questions, it sounds like they'd love to help you out.

00:47:57 Speaker_05
Nigel, I think let me ask you a question, because we're probably about the same age. And I think I think oftentimes people in our generation have a harder time asking for help.

00:48:08 Speaker_00
Is that fair to say? It is. I mean, we did a GoFundMe, and we raised, I think, like $26,000 within the first week of it. And that covered any past due rent. I paid off some vendors.

00:48:20 Speaker_00
And I'm stubborn in the sense that I didn't want to file for bankruptcy, because I have been a sales rep, and I know how that affects accounts. But yes, I have a hard time asking, because in my mind, everyone works hard for their money.

00:48:32 Speaker_00
So I don't want to be like, hey, why don't you help me?

00:48:35 Speaker_05
No, no, but that's not what you're asking. You're saying, I'm going to give you enough. You're not saying, why don't you help me? You're going to say, I have an opportunity for you. Right. It's to be a shareholder in this.

00:48:45 Speaker_05
See, what's so cool about what you're talking about is surfing is, to me, and I'm in California, it's very intimidating. Right. I don't I wouldn't feel comfortable walking into a surf shop and saying hey, I don't really know what I'm doing.

00:48:57 Speaker_05
Can you help me? Like I I want a place. It's like Awesome. Cool.

00:49:03 Speaker_00
Let's go.

00:49:03 Speaker_05
I and and that's what you're talking about. Yes, you're saying this is like it's like what was that movie dodgeball? It's like the gym for everyone else

00:49:14 Speaker_00
It is right and also the other part of this that I didn't really think about because again in Barbados the majority of surfers are blacks I don't think about this but in American in New York, where's the minority in the surfing community?

00:49:26 Speaker_00
So my aesthetic of the store wasn't you know, this California based you'd walk in and it'd be Bob Marley playing in the background and we'd have a little bit of rock and a little bit of souls and James Brown.

00:49:37 Speaker_00
And I think people walked in, and like you said, they didn't feel intimidated. And whenever we spoke to them, it was like, hey, Station, family. It was always a family conversation, because I wanted you to walk in. Your feet are wet and sandy? Yes.

00:49:49 Speaker_00
You have your board stripping of water? Because I'll just mop it up after. It's not that serious. And I think that connected. And I know it did. I can't say I think it did. That's why I'm so gung-ho to do it.

00:50:00 Speaker_00
But sometimes it's just good to hear the feedback from people who've who've kind of been through it. And, you know, you just need that pep talk, like you said. Yeah.

00:50:09 Speaker_05
And as Chris said, now you've got to start to harness that energy from the people who are like, we want you back. And so every time you hear that, you've got to say, OK, can we have a conversation?

00:50:19 Speaker_05
I'm thinking about raising money from the community as stakeholders. Everybody would have a stake in this business. Got it. You don't even have to make an ask or we can just say, what do you think about this idea?

00:50:31 Speaker_05
And just start to have that conversation with people. I really want people to own this with me because this is an opportunity to serve the community and to build a sustainable business that everybody can benefit from.

00:50:44 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. Okay. One point and one, I guess, thing to consider. I loved how you mentioned earlier the surfboard lockers. I'd never heard of such a thing, but man, that sounds cool. Yeah.

00:51:00 Speaker_03
Do you, if you think of the, when the store was open, what parts of it worked really well and what parts didn't? I'm assuming you've already thought of all this, but obviously whatever didn't work, okay, maybe trim that.

00:51:14 Speaker_03
But you know, is there a way to expand the lockers? I don't know if that's a moneymaker or not, but I love it.

00:51:19 Speaker_03
I love the vibe that you describe of the shop also, you know, people with sandy feet walking in, music playing, Bob Marley, like that seems very unique for the surf culture and, you know, New York being

00:51:34 Speaker_03
One of the fashion hubs of the world, where my mind is going, is merch and apparel. There's kids in South Dakota wearing Quicksilver and all sorts of other surf brands that aren't within 1,000 miles of an ocean, but they just love that culture.

00:51:52 Speaker_03
And so is there a fashion designer you could work with that could learn your vibe, your brand, everything? And is that a new channel? I'm assuming you had t-shirts and hoodies and stuff. But could you multiply that times 100 and really run with that?

00:52:09 Speaker_03
I don't know. That kind of excites me.

00:52:11 Speaker_00
Yeah, no, it's great that you said that because that is, because I'm like, like you guys have said, this is what I've been jotting down for the next iteration.

00:52:18 Speaker_00
And, and exactly what you said is what I'm thinking is people came to get station merchandise, you know, and, and the lockers are a great business because it's almost like a subscription model.

00:52:27 Speaker_00
You leave your board, we charge 150 a month, and we have 200 lockers, you know, and when they're full, it's awesome. And when they're half full, like it's still okay.

00:52:37 Speaker_00
But yes, I really appreciate the conversation and a lot of these things that you guys have mentioned, I've been thinking about it, but to hear qualified people like yourselves kind of co-sign it.

00:52:49 Speaker_05
I don't know how qualified we are.

00:52:51 Speaker_00
Well, I will say, Guy, I am so honored to be on the show. I listen to almost every episode. When I was starting my business, Because it gave me the motivation to understand that everyone started from somewhere.

00:53:02 Speaker_00
You know, some of these amazing guys that are multi-millionaires now, you hear, oh yeah, I lost my first shipment. And like, it got held up in customs. And you're like, what? You know, so I really appreciate it.

00:53:13 Speaker_00
And I never thought that I would be on here, but I really appreciate it.

00:53:16 Speaker_05
Well, here you are. Yes, I am.

00:53:17 Speaker_00
Here you are.

00:53:17 Speaker_05
Yep. Nigel Lewis of Station Surf Shop. Good luck, congrats on this. I'm cheering you on. And when I get to Rockaway Beach, I'm going right to the Station Surf Shop.

00:53:29 Speaker_00
Surf lesson on me. Surf lesson on me. You too, Chris.

00:53:32 Speaker_03
Thanks, Nigel.

00:53:33 Speaker_00
Have a great day. Thank you.

00:53:34 Speaker_05
Thank you, Nigel. Chris, before I let you go, a question I ask a lot of people who come on to join me on the advice line. What do you wish you knew at the beginning of starting your business that you now know that would have been helpful for you?

00:53:48 Speaker_03
Spend less, save more.

00:53:50 Speaker_05
That's great advice, because it's very actionable. I love that. Chris, thank you so much for coming back onto the show. Great to have you.

00:53:58 Speaker_03
Thank you so much. This was fun.

00:54:00 Speaker_05
That's Chris Ruder, founder and CEO of Spikeball. And by the way, if you haven't heard Chris's original How I Built This episode, you've got to go back and give it a listen. You can find a link to it in the podcast description.

00:54:10 Speaker_05
And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.

00:54:14 Speaker_03
At that time, I had no idea how much it was gonna cost to manufacture. I had no idea how much to make a website. You know, back then, all websites were hand-coded, so they were really expensive to make. Packaging, marketing, et cetera.

00:54:27 Speaker_03
What did you think you needed? How much money did you think you needed to raise? We actually didn't set a number. We kind of just said, invest whatever you're comfortable losing, because chances are very good that you're gonna lose it.

00:54:43 Speaker_05
Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at GuyRoz.com.

00:54:51 Speaker_05
Each week it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever.

00:55:00 Speaker_05
And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them.

00:55:13 Speaker_05
And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at hivt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well.

00:55:31 Speaker_05
This episode was produced by Sam Paulson, who also composed It was edited by John Isabella, and our audio engineer was Neil Rauch.

00:55:40 Speaker_05
Our production team at How I Built This also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Chris Masini, Devin Schwartz, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Katherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, and Neva Grant.

00:55:50 Speaker_05
I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. If you like how I built this, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

00:56:11 Speaker_05
Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

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