Abundance or Scarcity (Re-Release) AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast BibleProject

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Abundance or Scarcity (Re-Release)) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Go to PodExtra AI's podcast page (BibleProject) to view the AI-processed content of all episodes of this podcast.

BibleProject episodes list: view full AI transcripts and summaries of this podcast on the blog

Episode: Abundance or Scarcity (Re-Release)

Author: BibleProject Podcast
Duration: 01:07:04

Episode Shownotes

What comes to mind when you think of generosity? Is it sharing your money, resources, or even time with others? For the biblical authors, generosity is much more than an act of kindness—it’s a reality woven into the universe, starting with the generous Creator. In this re-released of our 2019

series on generosity, Jon and Tim start by exploring Jesus’ perspective on resources and the Hebrew Bible’s portrayal of God’s gracious abundance.View more resources on our website →Timestamps Chapter 1: The Theme of Generosity in the Bible (00:00-7:58)Chapter 2: Generosity for the Poor, Anxiety About Life, and Birdwatching (7:58-36:25)Chapter 3: The Story of Generosity in the Hebrew Bible (36:25-53:06)Chapter 4: The Corruption of Abundance (53:06-1:07:04)Referenced ResourcesYou can find our Generosity theme video here.Check out Tim’s library here.You can experience our entire library of resources in the BibleProject app, available for Android and iOS.Show Music“Conquer” by Beautiful Eulogy“Shot in the Back of the Head” by Moby“Scream Pilots” by Moby“Analogs” by MobyBibleProject theme song by TENTSShow CreditsProduction of today's episode is by Dan Gummel, producer; Lindsey Ponder, producer, and Cooper Peltz, managing producer. Tyler Bailey is our supervising engineer and remixed this episode for re-release. JB Witty does our show notes, and Hannah Woo provides the annotations for our app. Our host and creative director is Jon Collins, and our lead scholar is Tim Mackie.Powered and distributed by Simplecast.

Summary

In this re-released episode of the BibleProject Podcast titled 'Abundance or Scarcity,' hosts Jon and Tim explore the biblical theme of generosity, contrasting it with human experiences of anxiety and scarcity. They discuss Jesus' teachings on trust, highlighting how nature exemplifies God's provision and encourages a mindset of abundance. Through examples from the Hebrew Bible and nature, the conversation emphasizes that generosity is presented as a fundamental reality of creation, transforming one's worldview and relationship with resources. The episode contextualizes the biblical narrative in relation to the human condition and the potential for abundance amid societal challenges.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Abundance or Scarcity (Re-Release)) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:05 Speaker_08
Hey everybody, I'm Tim Mackey and welcome to the Bible Project podcast. Today on the podcast, we are starting a new series connected to a brand new Bible Project theme video that we're working on.

00:00:18 Speaker_08
And it's about a topic that is actually really important in the biblical story, but it also is a vital part of our everyday lived experience.

00:00:29 Speaker_08
The theme is generosity and it is connected to the experience that most of us know, which is that of scarcity and abundance. Scarcity causes a lot of anxiety in the human psyche. Jesus knew a lot about anxiety through his own personal life experience.

00:00:50 Speaker_08
He talked about it a lot too. He said famous lines like this from Luke chapter 12. Therefore, I tell you, don't be anxious about your life, what you will eat, or about your body, what you will wear.

00:01:04 Speaker_08
For life is more than food, and the body is more than clothes. Consider the ravens. They don't sow or reap. They don't have any storerooms or barns. And yet, God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds?

00:01:21 Speaker_08
Who of you, by worrying, could add a single hour to your life? And since you can't do this very little thing, why do you worry about all the rest?

00:01:32 Speaker_08
Now if you're like me, when you hear those words of Jesus, your first reaction might be that this sounds like somebody who's a hippie.

00:01:43 Speaker_08
So what's happening here when we hear the words of Jesus but actually want to resist or come up with objections to what he's saying? This isn't a unique experience to us.

00:01:55 Speaker_08
This is what happens to lots of people when they hear Jesus' teachings about anxiety and the freedom from being a slave to your possessions and your money. What's happening is a clash of worldviews.

00:02:07 Speaker_08
I simply don't hold the same view of the universe that Jesus does when it comes to thinking about money, possessions, resources, scarcity, and abundance. So in this episode, we're going to dig into this teaching of Jesus.

00:02:22 Speaker_08
And what we're going to discover is Jesus is actually articulating a mindset, a whole view of the world that has been soaked and immersed in page one of Genesis.

00:02:34 Speaker_08
Jesus has a conception of the universe that it's a beautiful creation packed with an overabundance of resources and opportunities and potential, and that it's a generous gift of the Creator to us.

00:02:49 Speaker_08
Jesus believes that we are all being hosted by this generous Creator, and if we can tune in to that Creator's love and overwhelming generosity, it will change how you live and experience all of life. So, how did Jesus get this mindset?

00:03:07 Speaker_08
How did he hold this mindset of generosity with all the pain and suffering that he saw around him? How did Jesus believe all these ideas when he was suffering and being killed on the cross?

00:03:18 Speaker_08
These are some of the questions that we're going to ask today as we begin to trace the theme of generosity throughout the storyline of the Bible. You guys, thank you for joining us on the Bible Project Podcast.

00:03:28 Speaker_06
Here we go. We get to start a new video on the topic of generosity. Yes. This is a video that we've talked about doing for a while. Yes. It wasn't on your original list of videos. Yep. That's correct. You brought like a master list five years ago. Yeah.

00:03:46 Speaker_06
And we've deviated from that list many times. Yeah.

00:03:49 Speaker_08
But mainly by adding things. Yeah, I don't think we've taken anything off the list. No, it was a big list of biblical theology videos and biblical book videos. But we've added some that we've come to call topics. Yeah.

00:04:05 Speaker_08
And some of these have taken the form of word studies. Like, they're important topics, words, or ideas in the Bible. They don't necessarily stretch from cover to cover and get a full-scale development, but some do.

00:04:19 Speaker_06
This was a new paradigm for me of thinking of the difference between a theme and a topic. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

00:04:25 Speaker_06
And so, you had about two dozen themes, and a theme for you is an idea, a motif, that usually begins in the first couple pages of the Bible. Correct.

00:04:37 Speaker_08
Yeah, usually connected to a word, an image, or a motif that's introduced in the first narratives of Genesis.

00:04:44 Speaker_06
So you see it at the beginning of the narrative, and then you can actually follow it like a melody throughout the entire storyline of the Bible. Correct.

00:04:52 Speaker_06
And it has its climax in the person of Jesus, in his life, death, and resurrection, and then continues on to its final resolution in new creation. Correct. So we've done a lot of those. And we've stayed away from more what you would call topic videos.

00:05:08 Speaker_06
Yeah, that's right. Or topics, which the Bible might speak to. Yeah, that's right. It might even speak to a lot, but it doesn't necessarily get developed in the same way?

00:05:18 Speaker_08
Well, it doesn't mean it's a theme that just keeps popping up. Once you see a theme, the core biblical themes that are weaving the whole narrative together, Once you see the core ones, you just start to see them everywhere. They're just everywhere.

00:05:33 Speaker_08
However, there are also important ideas in the Bible that are repeated in many places, though maybe not as prominent as themes.

00:05:42 Speaker_06
It's not just about prominence, though.

00:05:44 Speaker_08
It's not just about prominence. You know, I should be honest and say it's also just there's a matter of judgment call. Yeah, it seems like it.

00:05:52 Speaker_08
Because the themes that we've covered are also themes that I think are underrepresented in the Christian tradition. Got it.

00:05:59 Speaker_08
But that are really important in the Hebrew Bible and in Jewish tradition and it turns out in the New Testament we just don't always have eyes to see them. Even though they're all over. Even though they're all over.

00:06:10 Speaker_08
Certain traditions of Christianity haven't equipped us to notice these things in the Bible. So those are the things I try and move towards.

00:06:18 Speaker_08
So yeah, the theme of generosity, which overlaps with the concept and theme and word of grace in the Bible, it's actually a really big deal. It's a really big theme.

00:06:31 Speaker_06
Have you moved then from topic to theme on this topic?

00:06:34 Speaker_08
I don't know. Let's see. I've been pondering this for

00:06:38 Speaker_06
Our good friend, who's been a big part of the organization, is a massive champion of biblical generosity, is the term that he likes to use. That's right.

00:06:48 Speaker_08
And he influenced a part of why the Bible Project is free.

00:06:54 Speaker_06
Totally.

00:06:55 Speaker_08
The resources are free because of his influence.

00:06:56 Speaker_06
He was at ground level on how we were going to develop resources for this and the model of being a free, kind of a pay-it-forward.

00:07:04 Speaker_08
Yeah, nonprofit animation studio. Crowdfunded. Crowdfunded, yeah.

00:07:08 Speaker_06
And so he's been just every year, just like, hey, when are you making the video on generosity? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And it is a theme, right?

00:07:18 Speaker_01
And then you'd be like, well, it's a topic.

00:07:22 Speaker_08
So let's just say it's important. It's talked about all over the Bible, and we're going to make a video about it. I trust it's going to be awesome.

00:07:58 Speaker_08
We usually start in Genesis, and of course we will spend time talking about Genesis 1 and 2, but I thought we should first ponder a teaching of Jesus where he puts a number of things together, namely the concepts of anxiety, freedom from anxiety.

00:08:17 Speaker_08
Watching and paying attention to flowers and birds and generosity, especially towards the poor. For Jesus, those three things are closely bound together.

00:08:30 Speaker_06
Generosity for the poor. Yep. Anxiety about life.

00:08:33 Speaker_08
Yes.

00:08:34 Speaker_06
And what was the other thing? Birds?

00:08:36 Speaker_08
How well you pay attention to birds and flowers. In Jesus' mind, these are three things that just go together really... Like how good of a bird watcher you are?

00:08:46 Speaker_10
Yeah.

00:08:47 Speaker_08
And botanist?

00:08:47 Speaker_10
Yeah.

00:08:48 Speaker_08
Luke chapter 12. So he said to his disciples, for this reason I tell you, don't be anxious about your life, what you will eat. Don't be anxious about your body, what clothes you put on. For life is more than food and the body more than clothing.

00:09:04 Speaker_08
Ponder the ravens. They don't sow seed or reap harvest. They have no storerooms or barns, yet God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds? And which of you, by worrying, can add an hour to his lifespan?

00:09:21 Speaker_08
And if you can't do even a very little thing, why then do you worry about other matters? Ponder the lilies, how they grow. They don't toil or spin clothes. like material, fabric.

00:09:35 Speaker_08
But I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. And if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow's thrown into the furnace, how much more will he clothe you?

00:09:48 Speaker_08
you who trust God so little. And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink. Don't foster your anxiety. For all of these things the nations of the world eagerly seek. And your Father knows that you need these things.

00:10:04 Speaker_08
But seek His kingdom and all these things will be granted to you. Don't be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.

00:10:16 Speaker_08
Sell your possessions, give to the poor, make for yourselves money belts that don't wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Classic Jesus.

00:10:33 Speaker_08
Totally. So good, man. Just like the ultimate sage, can like weave together things that you normally wouldn't put together into one place. Anxiety, ravens. flowers, ancient kings, and generosity to the poor. This is Luke's version of this teaching.

00:10:56 Speaker_08
Matthew has packaged it a little bit differently in the Sermon on the Mount. I'm actually just curious.

00:11:02 Speaker_08
I have my own things that occur to me and challenges that I've had with this teaching over the years, but I'm curious, you know, I've been thinking about this in the context of our conversation

00:11:11 Speaker_08
But what strikes you as either thoughts or potential objections that one might have to Jesus? Sure. It feels very hippie.

00:11:26 Speaker_06
Which makes it feel like a little naive, perhaps.

00:11:29 Speaker_08
Irresponsible.

00:11:30 Speaker_06
A little irresponsible.

00:11:32 Speaker_08
Yeah.

00:11:32 Speaker_06
Like if you just went around never worrying or never concerning yourself with even making sure you had clothes on your back. And you're just like, yeah, well, the flowers don't worry about it. It's like, you're not a flower.

00:11:45 Speaker_08
Yeah, that's right.

00:11:45 Speaker_06
You're human. You're a human being. Yeah, that's right. You don't have feathers like a raven. Right. Yep. You don't look at a flower and go, hey, put some clothes on. Maybe Jesus is trying to be provocative here.

00:11:59 Speaker_06
He seems to have had a habit of that, doing that kind of thing. But you want to take him seriously and you want to say, okay, should I not ever worry? You probably did have to worry like, do I have a cloak this winter? Yeah, that's right.

00:12:12 Speaker_08
Yeah, that's my cloak. That's right.

00:12:14 Speaker_06
And I guess if in a different socioeconomic status, you're gonna have to worry about that. I am a middle-class Westerner and it's like, do I have a coat this year that I think is cool? That's your question. That's my question.

00:12:33 Speaker_06
So obviously that's a different level of worrying. It's a little easier to get there.

00:12:39 Speaker_08
Well, okay, so let's focus on that. So what you're saying is you live in a very different cultural setting than Jesus. Yeah. So the way you conceive of food, availability, and clothing is totally different.

00:12:53 Speaker_06
Totally different.

00:12:54 Speaker_08
Those aren't the things I worry about. Correct. Yeah. I worry about other things. That's right. That's right. Yeah. So, yeah, let's just place Jesus in this setting, right? First century Galilee.

00:13:04 Speaker_08
This is a people group living on their ancestral land, the Israelites, under military occupation by the Romans. Tax burdens are insanely heavy, which is why taxes feature so much in Jesus' parables.

00:13:20 Speaker_08
His day-to-day life is... What percentage of your take-home? Oh, I don't know off the top of my head. I'd have to do some homework.

00:13:27 Speaker_08
But the fact that it features a lot in Jesus' teachings and the way that the Romans profited from the subjugated people groups in the empire was through taxation. And in that region, it's just all agriculture.

00:13:41 Speaker_08
Think of all of his parables filled with day laborers, you know, or people who have to sell their land or dream of finding treasure. So, right? Jesus' parables are filled, you can see, with the stories and anxieties of the people that he's talking to.

00:13:56 Speaker_08
Right. So, yeah, in that setting, worrying about food and clothing, many people live on subsistence wages and that kind of thing. Yeah. Which many people today still do. And many, many, many, large percentage of the human race still. Yeah.

00:14:13 Speaker_08
So there it's important to translate, to imagine what in every different person's cultural setting is the equivalent of the kind of anxieties he's talking about. But even then, that doesn't relieve the tension that you're placing your finger on. Right.

00:14:27 Speaker_08
Which is, is this a carefree Jesus? The carefree Jesus. Is this a careless Jesus? Yeah, yeah. Is he doing what he often does, which is say something hyperbolic on one extreme to force you awake and to really think about the heart of what he's getting at.

00:14:45 Speaker_08
My mind has often gone to another aspect of this, which is, what about, like the ravens I typically see are either flying in trees or they're like squashed on the road. The roadkill?

00:14:59 Speaker_08
Yeah, and actually ever since I started following Jesus and like I read the saying and I would see like a dead crow Yeah squashed over getting picked on by other crows, and I'm just like huh so That one wasn't where I'm in.

00:15:11 Speaker_08
Yeah, that yeah, and was God paying attention to that one? All right like you know that's the whole thing is God cares about the birds. Yeah You're more valuable than birds, so God cares more about you. And I'm like, well, what about the dead crow?

00:15:23 Speaker_08
And what about the wildflower field that gets caught by a wildfire? That's where my mind goes. It's all the instances where nature gives you the opposite of abundance, super abundance. It gives you devastation and death. And what is God's role in that?

00:15:41 Speaker_08
You know what I'm saying?

00:15:41 Speaker_01
Yeah.

00:15:42 Speaker_08
Neither of those liabilities, what we typically go towards, what we just did was go towards the exceptions to what he's saying. Instead of focusing on the point that he is making.

00:15:54 Speaker_06
Right.

00:15:54 Speaker_08
Which is actually a good, a good point.

00:15:56 Speaker_06
Does Matthew's version of this say ravens? It's just ravens feels like a new detail to me. Oh, got it. And I'm more familiar with the Matthew saying. Got it. I just never pictured ravens. Ravens are scavengers. They are. So are crows. Yeah.

00:16:11 Speaker_06
But I think, I think Matthew says birds of the air or something like that. Oh, got it here. I'm gonna look it up. And so I always pictured like blue birds. Oh, like robins or something.

00:16:19 Speaker_08
Yeah, got it. Oh, you're right. Yeah, in Matthew 6, it's just the birds of the, it's the generic word for birds, like the, not a species word, but a higher level category word.

00:16:32 Speaker_02
Whereas Luke

00:16:38 Speaker_08
gives us, yeah, the specific word for raven or crow.

00:16:44 Speaker_06
Crows are, they're fighters. Yeah, they're scrappy. They're scrappy. Yeah, totally. Scrappy animals.

00:16:49 Speaker_08
Yeah, that's right. Actually, that's fascinating. Yeah, I actually hadn't pondered that before this moment, but. In Luke's version, he retains the word crow, and a crow is non-kosher, precisely because it's a scavenger.

00:17:04 Speaker_08
It's the birds of the prey, the carnivorous birds that are the unclean ones, impure, that Jews don't eat. So that's interesting. Yeah. God provides for them. Like other animals. Carcasses of other animals. Getting run over.

00:17:19 Speaker_08
But also, I mean, they eat anything. Yeah, that's right. They'll eat berries or whatever. They just make it work. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Okay. So the exceptions, there's lots of exceptions you could say to Jesus.

00:17:29 Speaker_08
And my hunch is that we would, but Jesus, what about the crows that die? You know, in a famine, whatever. And so you might have a response to that. But I think his point would be, but didn't you hear the point that I was making?

00:17:43 Speaker_08
Which is the ravens and these flowers exist in a form, as a form, and they experience a form of abundance. They're a sign of abundance.

00:17:54 Speaker_08
just creatures out there, they don't spend their time investing in food prep and food storage, but they're beautiful.

00:18:04 Speaker_06
And they seem to always have enough food. Well, you know, I mean, I think if crows had enough of a prefrontal cortex, they might store food.

00:18:16 Speaker_08
Oh, that's a good point.

00:18:17 Speaker_06
I just don't think they know to.

00:18:21 Speaker_08
Well, totally.

00:18:22 Speaker_08
And I think that's part of his point, though, is like, there are many creatures that exist in the world, they have enough, or they're just splendorous like flowers, and they are a witness to the overabundance that God has packed into creation.

00:18:38 Speaker_08
Interesting. And he says, if you ponder the existence of a bird or a lily long enough, it will free you from anxiety. That's his point. That's his point. It's his point. Yeah, don't you be anxious. Ponder the ravens. Ponder the lilies.

00:18:57 Speaker_08
Somehow the lilies are just beautiful.

00:18:59 Speaker_06
Do you think Jesus wants you to stop and just hang out and think about Birds. I mean, what else does he mean, ponder the raven?

00:19:06 Speaker_06
Well, you might just mean, for example, let me get like, for a moment, for this moment, I don't want you to go home and spend the rest of the afternoon thinking about birds.

00:19:17 Speaker_08
Oh, well, no, no, man, he's a wisdom sage. Yeah, he wants you to think about birds. He wants you to stop and think about the birds for an afternoon. Jesus wants you to be a birdwatcher.

00:19:28 Speaker_08
Just like, as we'll see a little bit later, he wants you to ponder a rainstorm. And what that says about the character of God. Here it's what a flower and a bird tells you about the character of God.

00:19:38 Speaker_06
I thought before that bird watching would be a good activity for me.

00:19:42 Speaker_08
Oh really? Yeah.

00:19:43 Speaker_06
Because it forces you to be very present.

00:19:47 Speaker_08
Yeah, to pay attention to things you'd normally ignore or overlook.

00:19:51 Speaker_06
Yeah, and just to be very kind of embodied in nature and be observing. And then there's like a gamification aspect of it where you're like checking off birds.

00:20:04 Speaker_08
Yes, that's right.

00:20:05 Speaker_06
It turns into like a... Yeah, you can make it an adventure. Yeah, make it an adventure.

00:20:08 Speaker_08
Yeah, that's right.

00:20:09 Speaker_06
So as you ponder nature, birds, flowers and the abundance that they kind of thrive within.

00:20:17 Speaker_06
It's like there's this ecosystem and it spins off so much value that we could have these creatures and these flowers that just kind of spring to life and flourish. And they don't have anxiety the way that humans have anxiety.

00:20:39 Speaker_08
Correct. What kind of creature seems to be free from anxiety yet experiences abundance?

00:20:45 Speaker_06
Ones that aren't conscious of their own self.

00:20:51 Speaker_08
Yeah, that's right. Do you have a crow self-awareness or self-consciousness? Well, or he thinks that there are certain advantages to not being that self-conscious. Yeah. That's interesting. It is interesting to think about. It's

00:21:04 Speaker_08
The crows have one up on us. Because they're free from a whole, think of what, yeah, their brains just don't have to do all of this. But they are very intelligent creatures. Yes, they are. Yes, they are. They use tools.

00:21:19 Speaker_08
There's one by my house using, oh, oh, yes, there was one by my house dropping nuts from the telephone wires above. To break them? To break them open.

00:21:29 Speaker_06
Yeah.

00:21:29 Speaker_08
I watched him do it.

00:21:30 Speaker_06
Crows can remember human faces. If you mess with the crow, it'll remember you, and you'll make an enemy. We're pondering crows right now.

00:21:41 Speaker_08
We're doing what Jesus told us to do. So, when I look at the birds and these lilies, I see living things that don't stress out about their subsistence, their needs, and they always seem to be provided for

00:22:02 Speaker_08
And in the case of flowers, they're just drop dead gorgeous, just beautiful, mind blowing. And Jesus draws from that a conclusion about God's generosity and care that humans would do well to pay attention to. Because look what he goes on to say.

00:22:18 Speaker_08
Look, he goes on to say, why do you freak out about clothes and food? You trust God so little. He equates their inability to worry with as like this model of trust. It's so fascinating.

00:22:33 Speaker_08
So then, in verse 29, he goes on to say, listen, also this is what the non-Jews, this is how the non-Jews see the world. All they think life's meaning is about food and drink and clothing and security. Your father knows these things.

00:22:49 Speaker_08
Here's what I tell you to do. Seek the kingdom, which is a phrase that's been almost Christianized out of having any meaning, hasn't it? Yeah. You have to imagine yourself into what Jesus meant when he said the kingdom of God is here, so follow me.

00:23:04 Speaker_06
Yeah. Right. I don't know if I appreciate it.

00:23:10 Speaker_08
It's almost you have to upload how many other hours of conversation we've had over the last five years. Yeah. Well, if you prioritize loving your neighbor as yourself.

00:23:20 Speaker_06
Well, you're using kingdom here in a non-literal sense, where a first century Jewish person would have heard that and be like, yeah, when Israel gets its own freedom from any other empire, and we have a kingdom.

00:23:39 Speaker_08
That's how some people, yeah, might have heard him on day one when he's going around announcing.

00:23:44 Speaker_08
But if you're following Jesus around the hills of Galilee and you've been listening to him teach, you know that living under God's reign means God's kingdom as defined by Jesus. Jesus is restarting the Genesis 1 Eden project of humans

00:24:00 Speaker_08
living in partnership with the reign of God. It's about a different way to conceive of human relationships, a different way of conceiving of power and status, relationships, all that. Sermon on the Mount. Yeah. All that stuff. Right.

00:24:14 Speaker_08
Transformation of the heart, Jeremiah 31, Torah, written on the heart, new humans.

00:24:19 Speaker_03
Yeah.

00:24:20 Speaker_08
So if you seek to live by the Sermon on the Mount, essentially, What you'll find is that your needs will be provided for. All these things will be granted to you.

00:24:31 Speaker_08
It's sort of like your needs are provided for precisely when you stop stressing out about them as your goal.

00:24:38 Speaker_06
Yeah.

00:24:39 Speaker_08
That's what Jesus' point is here. And then look at what he says, the final line is, so sell your stuff. Sell stuff.

00:24:48 Speaker_06
And give it away.

00:24:48 Speaker_08
And give it away. And here's what you'll paradoxically find, your money belts won't wear out, because you're participating in the new creation, what he calls unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief can come near, where moth destroy.

00:25:05 Speaker_06
Is this, you know, the very Christianized version of this is like jewels in your crown in heaven. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, like bonus points, bigger mansion in new creation. Yeah.

00:25:19 Speaker_06
It doesn't seem, but I gotta imagine that's not what he's thinking about.

00:25:22 Speaker_08
No, uh, yeah, I think you can make it way more practical and realistic. What he's talking about in his day is, think, in the day before you have digital currency,

00:25:33 Speaker_08
Or virtual current, you know, yeah, like well, what is the savings that I my me and my wife save up? Yeah, they're just like numbers on a computer. Oh, right. Yeah in a bank. Like what is that? in a time when all your currency- Yeah, isn't actual coins.

00:25:49 Speaker_08
Isn't actual like hard materials. How you create structures for saving and investment and long-term security, right? It's a very different setup.

00:26:03 Speaker_08
So, Jesus' whole point is, if you make your own personal security the main focus of your life goals, what you'll paradoxically find, this is Ecclesiastes. This paragraph has Ecclesiastes all over it.

00:26:17 Speaker_08
It'll actually ruin you, destroy you through anxiety, and more than likely, the structure's, the system's gonna break, and it won't be there when you need it.

00:26:27 Speaker_06
Yeah, or you'll die and you'll give it to someone else who gets to enjoy it.

00:26:30 Speaker_08
Yeah, totally, and then they'll waste it and that whole deal. Yeah, totally. So his whole point is, if you're living by the Sermon on the Mount, what you're doing is you are investing in a new creation.

00:26:41 Speaker_08
You're living in the present as if you're living in the new creation. And when you live in that way, you are creating realities that last on into the future.

00:26:51 Speaker_06
The reason why we like money is because you can exchange it for stuff that you need and want. So it's about value. But there's something about a way of living, which

00:27:06 Speaker_06
is the way of the kingdom, where there's a different type of currency, like a different type of value.

00:27:12 Speaker_08
Yeah, that's right, that doesn't wear out. It doesn't wear out. It doesn't wear out, that's right. Yeah, I can spend a lot of money on a great meal, and in 24 hours, It's past. Past, literally, and metaphorically past.

00:27:32 Speaker_08
But the way, if I love my neighbor as myself, and I really, you know, I choose to use some of those resources to help out somebody I know who's going through a really hard time, the love and the generosity

00:27:43 Speaker_08
And now the bond, the relational bond, there's something there that's an investment, according to Jesus, in something that lasts on into the new creation.

00:27:53 Speaker_08
In the Sermon on the Mount, healthy whole relationships is one of the greatest values of the kingdom of God, according to Jesus.

00:28:01 Speaker_08
And generosity creates those types of bonds between people that apparently are more enduring than a good meal or the stock market.

00:28:12 Speaker_06
And you can get there pretty easy.

00:28:13 Speaker_06
It doesn't take too much imagination to realize, yeah, I'll find more joy and abundance out of a network of people who experience this kind of radical level of generosity towards each other than I will in whatever new Tesla model is coming out.

00:28:41 Speaker_06
But in the day-to-day experience, that's not usually where my psyche is.

00:28:46 Speaker_08
That's right. That's right. So to me, it's significant that this thing about the birds and the flowers and anxiety is placed next to this teaching.

00:28:55 Speaker_08
It's actually all part of one teaching about your priorities, what you really value, and valuing the kingdom such that you begin to treat other people according to Jesus' value set. And for Jesus, those just go together. Yeah.

00:29:10 Speaker_08
So you could put it this way. He began with, the whole thing began with, don't be anxious, freedom from anxiety. So Jesus apparently conceives of the universe that he's living in as a place that should free us from anxiety.

00:29:25 Speaker_06
Yeah. Has he, has he been around?

00:29:28 Speaker_08
I just, right. Okay. So, uh, it's a place where it does, you know, uh,

00:29:35 Speaker_06
In the city, it feels like birds are kind of just scrapping it out. Oh, sure. Yeah. But in agricultural society. Yeah. Or in rural. Rural. Outdoors. The birds haven't made. I mean, they're just. Yeah.

00:29:46 Speaker_08
I mean, they got to work hard.

00:29:48 Speaker_06
Yeah. But I mean. Yeah. She's flying around enjoying life while you're digging.

00:29:52 Speaker_08
Totally.

00:29:53 Speaker_06
Trenches.

00:29:54 Speaker_08
Yeah. Yeah. No, that's exactly. Yeah. So yeah, nature, and again, we're going to see this paragraph from Jesus is rooted entirely in the Hebrew scriptures. Every bit of this is leaking from the Psalms and the Proverbs.

00:30:08 Speaker_08
Jesus views the world as a stable place where we're being hosted by a very generous person. That's cool.

00:30:19 Speaker_06
Man, that couldn't be different than atheistic. Sure, yeah, modern materialist. Materialist. It's like the world is a cruel place. That's right. And we're banging out our niche as best we can.

00:30:31 Speaker_08
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, nature is red and tooth and claw, as some poet said. Yeah, that's a good line.

00:30:39 Speaker_06
Which is easy to adopt that mentality. It feels very counterintuitive to sit back and go, no, the world is a stable place. Yeah. That is saturated in God's generosity.

00:30:53 Speaker_08
Yes, yes, yes. And the same overabundance that Jesus saw at a field of wildflowers is the same overabundance that the Creator wants to show towards me. And if I foster that mindset, it can free me from a scarcity mindset.

00:31:13 Speaker_08
And maybe that's the core difference here. Jesus looks at the world and sees abundance.

00:31:18 Speaker_08
And he sees that abundance as pointing to someone who loves us and has provided this environment for us to flourish, as opposed to a scarcity mindset that says, from the beginning, there's not enough for everyone. Find your niche. Find my niche.

00:31:37 Speaker_08
Prioritize me and my own. And survive. And survive. Two very different approaches to the universe. And it's clear what Jesus is advocating. You know, I think I'm realizing I live out of a mix of those two. I think I do too. Jesus is articulating a mindset.

00:31:55 Speaker_08
He's a mouthpiece for the whole biblical approach, whole biblical story. It actually does begin on page one and two. It's a conception of the universe as a beautiful creation that is packed with opportunity and resources and potential.

00:32:11 Speaker_08
And if I can cultivate the mindset that I'm being hosted by a generous creator, in my day-to-day life that will free me into whole new levels of life experience that I haven't ever experienced before.

00:32:27 Speaker_06
You know, we got to experience that. We got to go hang out at like a ranch that we were hosted. Yes. And there's just all this abundance.

00:32:37 Speaker_07
Yes.

00:32:38 Speaker_06
You know, like, that's a good point. Here's like, choose one of these six vehicles. Okay.

00:32:42 Speaker_08
So this is a good story. This is a good, a generous supporter of the bio project. Yeah. Invited John and I out to like a ranch in Eastern Oregon for, with our families.

00:32:51 Speaker_06
Yeah. He's got this beautiful piece of property.

00:32:53 Speaker_08
Yeah. He's got most of it's, I mean, there's some alfalfa fields and a lot of cattle, but it's just, it's a ton of just wild property.

00:33:01 Speaker_06
Yeah. And just deer and elk and mountain lions and lakes and. Yep. And it's a place of abundance. It is. And you go there and you don't feel like... He gave us a chef. So it's like you're not thinking about what you're going to eat. Yes.

00:33:17 Speaker_08
This is like so not my day-to-day reality.

00:33:23 Speaker_06
It was wild. It was insane.

00:33:24 Speaker_08
Yeah, that's right. Pick your four-wheel drive vehicle for the weekend. Yeah, the keys are in all of them. Just grab one. Here's the building where all the bottled water is and the candy for the kids. Yeah, and a couple of cabins. It's just like, what?

00:33:40 Speaker_08
Yeah, rare, very rare. So that's, yeah, to me that's the challenge of what this teaching represents.

00:33:45 Speaker_06
Am I supposed to always feel that way?

00:33:47 Speaker_08
I'm supposed to always feel like Well, you look at his words and you tell me. He wants us to live and really believe, and he calls it an act of faith. Because he says, look at the flowers and the ravens, you who trust God so little.

00:34:03 Speaker_08
If there's anything getting in the way of me experiencing abundance, it's probably a human problem. human-caused problem. It's not God's problem. God's just packed creation full of potential.

00:34:15 Speaker_08
And if I can grasp that, I can not only be freed from anxiety, I can, it can begin to become second nature that I release my stuff out to other people who don't have as much as I do.

00:34:28 Speaker_06
Yeah, there was something about being on that property that made me, I felt like, cool, I'm gonna hang out with my kids. I'm gonna hang out with, you know, it just felt like I didn't, I could be more generous in my time and whatever.

00:34:40 Speaker_06
Because there's something about feeling like you live within scarcity that makes you want to pile things up. And when you live with an abundance, you would think, that's another opportunity just to pile things up.

00:34:54 Speaker_06
Because it's just like, look at all this abundance, let's just grab as much as I can. Which might be an initial instinct with abundance. But eventually you kind of realize, you're like, Why am I spending all this time piling all this stuff up?

00:35:07 Speaker_06
It's just always there. Yeah, that's right. When I need it, it's there. Yeah, that's right. I'm wasting all this time and energy.

00:35:14 Speaker_08
Yeah, Jesus is advocating a mindset that says there's enough.

00:35:18 Speaker_06
Yeah.

00:35:18 Speaker_08
There's enough.

00:35:19 Speaker_06
There's enough.

00:35:20 Speaker_08
So I can share. Of course I can share. It's not mine to begin with, and there's always enough.

00:35:26 Speaker_06
Is there always enough?

00:35:27 Speaker_08
That's the point.

00:35:28 Speaker_06
There's always enough.

00:35:30 Speaker_08
Or, in theory, there should be. The Earth has the ability to produce enough. If humans are creative enough and love their neighbor as themselves enough, there is enough. I think that's his point. So I've got a question. We've already proposed a lot.

00:36:30 Speaker_08
What kind of tradition forms a person who talks and thinks like this? Like, in what kind of culture and story do you have to grow up to actually believe these words and say them to other people? And you can't just say, oh, he's Jesus.

00:36:48 Speaker_08
Like, he can say stuff like that. No.

00:36:51 Speaker_06
Yeah, he was brought up within a culture and a perspective.

00:36:56 Speaker_08
Somebody who draws conclusions about God's character, thinking about both the text of scripture, but also looking at birds and flowers, and as we'll see later, rainstorms.

00:37:06 Speaker_08
And someone who truly believes there's a beautiful, generous mind behind the universe.

00:37:11 Speaker_06
What It seems like what you're digging at is if you read the Hebrew scriptures and you look at the stories of creation and the stories of God, You will have the mindset of an abundant world.

00:37:27 Speaker_08
The reason you and I come up with all these objections, or think of all the exceptions to what he's saying here, is because we have been raised in a culture that has a fundamentally different view of the universe. than how Jesus saw the world.

00:37:44 Speaker_08
And what kind of way of seeing the world produces a person who can say a paragraph like that and everybody looks and was just like, yeah, good point, yeah, yeah.

00:37:54 Speaker_08
And Jesus is here a mouthpiece for the view of God and God's generosity and creation that you find in the storyline of the scriptures, the Hebrew scriptures.

00:38:05 Speaker_08
So to me, if there's like a light bulb or some moment, we haven't even talked about what language we want to use for it yet in this video, but there's a foreign way of seeing the world.

00:38:16 Speaker_08
There's enough, an abundance mindset that's foreign to how most of us think about the world. What can we do in a five minute video experience that can just open up a different way of seeing the world to somebody, including ourselves?

00:38:32 Speaker_08
To me, that would be the win for this video. That's why I love this paragraph of Jesus' teaching so much. It's a great teaching.

00:38:39 Speaker_08
I would propose that the first place we ought to look to think of what would form a person to talk like this about the universe is explicitly stated as Jesus' cultural tradition, which is the Jewish scriptural heritage.

00:38:55 Speaker_08
Jesus was raised on the Torah, the prophets, and the Psalms. It's amazing to think about how some of his first memories would be hearing his mom or dad sing the poetry of the Psalms.

00:39:10 Speaker_08
So what you find, for example, in the Book of Psalms is all these poems, they're often called the creation poems in the Book of Psalms, and what you find in them is exactly the worldview. that Jesus is expressing right here.

00:39:25 Speaker_06
The abundant worldview.

00:39:26 Speaker_08
Yes, this abundance mindset, creation, as these people experience it, is just an experience of God's generous abundance everywhere they look. So Psalm 104, for example. Psalm 104. Psalm 104. This is an epic psalm.

00:39:44 Speaker_08
It's an entire meditation on page one of the Bible. It's a poetic meditation. on page one.

00:39:50 Speaker_06
It's a poetic meditation on the creation story. On the creation story.

00:39:53 Speaker_08
Which is page one. Yep. And what this poet does is he systematically works through the three tiers of the universe. The heavens, and then the land, and then the sea. And then he ponders the objects or the inhabitants.

00:40:12 Speaker_08
The thing in Genesis 1, the environments of order and the inhabitants. And its creatures. And its creatures.

00:40:19 Speaker_08
And he just works through and he, like Jesus, just draws conclusions or forms these meditations based on observing and pondering everything in every realm. It's a pondering tradition. Yeah, totally. It's Jewish meditation literature.

00:40:35 Speaker_08
So notice how Psalm 104 works. It begins with an opening call to praise. Bless Yahweh, O my... Nefesh. O my nefesh, my being. my life. We get soul in most English translations. Yahweh, my God, you are very great. You're closed with splendor and majesty.

00:40:54 Speaker_08
That's similar to Psalm 8.

00:40:57 Speaker_06
Psalm 8, yeah. And that's this whole idea of the heavenly bodies being a different kind of

00:41:04 Speaker_08
Yeah, that's right.

00:41:05 Speaker_06
Having a different kind of clothing.

00:41:06 Speaker_08
Yes, you cover yourself with light. So yeah, the heavens form their language for the spiritual realm. Different kinds of beings and bodies. And here, what their body is closed with is splendor and light.

00:41:21 Speaker_06
Clothed with splendor and majesty.

00:41:23 Speaker_08
Yeah, covering yourself with light. So good.

00:41:27 Speaker_06
That's a good outfit.

00:41:32 Speaker_08
So he starts, he's pondering up in the heavens. He's envisioning the dome, the beams of the upper dome, the clouds of his chariot, wings of the wind. And he makes the winds his angels, his messengers. That's the word angel.

00:41:48 Speaker_06
He makes the winds his messengers. So he's not talking about spiritual beings there, he's talking about creation being like a way that he speaks.

00:41:57 Speaker_08
Yeah, just like he has spiritual beings that are his messengers, the winds and lightning are also his servants and messengers. Yeah. Then he moves on, poet moves on to talk about the land, its foundations. He established it, the pillars.

00:42:12 Speaker_08
So the land sits on pillars so that it won't sink into the abyss below. He covers the deep as with a garment. And that's the earth. Yeah, he established the land on its foundation. A garment on the watery depths.

00:42:25 Speaker_08
You covered it, that is, the land with the deep as with a garment. So he's imagining actually here the pre-creation state with the waters over the land. The waters were standing above the mountains.

00:42:37 Speaker_06
Oh, the watery depths were a garment.

00:42:39 Speaker_08
But at your rebuke, the waters fled. This is when God says, let the waters draw back and the dry land emerge. He imagines this as God rebuking the waters.

00:42:50 Speaker_08
This is the phrase the gospel authors use when they depict Jesus calming the waters in the gospels. They use the same word, rebuke. He rebukes. Oh, it's from Psalm 104. Yep, that's a cool little nugget. Then he thinks about how the dry land is watered.

00:43:04 Speaker_08
God tamed the chaotic waters so the dry land can emerge. And then verse 10, he releases the waters back from the deeps into the land, but it comes forth. It comes up in the form of springs in the valleys.

00:43:16 Speaker_08
This is actually, we'll talk about this one when we get into the Genesis 1 and 2 series.

00:43:21 Speaker_08
But the idea is that the chaotic waters that began with, he stilled them by his spirit and, you know, rebuked them so that they draw back, so dry land can emerge. And then now God's master of the waters. And so anytime those waters pop up,

00:43:37 Speaker_08
from the great deep below in a spring or a well, that's seen as a gift of God showing his mastery over the chaotic waters.

00:43:46 Speaker_06
Oh, so that's connected then to Moses bringing water from rocks and stuff.

00:43:50 Speaker_08
All the waters and wells in the wilderness become little Eden, little gifts of Eden. That's cool. In the midst, totally. Yeah, it's all connected.

00:44:00 Speaker_06
Hey, by the way, in verse 7 where he says, at the sound of your thunder they took flight, that's the word, it's also voice, right? Thunder, voice?

00:44:07 Speaker_08
Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:44:09 Speaker_06
You rebuke the waters, they fled. Yes, from your rebuke. The sound of your voice.

00:44:13 Speaker_08
You're thinking of our conversation about Psalm 29. Thunder and voice. The voice of your thunder. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, exactly right. Then he moves on to start talking about the creatures. Okay, so here's where we're going to pick up.

00:44:25 Speaker_08
I think this is where we get into a text that's forming the mindset of Jesus. Oh, cool. So he causes grass to grow for the cattle. and vegetation for the labor of humans so that he may bring forth food from the land.

00:44:44 Speaker_06
Are you reading a translation or are you just reading Hebrew?

00:44:47 Speaker_08
I'm reading from the New American. NAS, okay. The NAS, yeah.

00:44:51 Speaker_06
Verse 14, he causes the grass to grow for the cattle and vegetation for the labor of man so that he, the man, may bring forth food from the earth.

00:45:00 Speaker_08
Yeah. Yeah. The word for food is actually the word bread in Hebrew, lechem.

00:45:05 Speaker_06
Lechem.

00:45:06 Speaker_08
Which can be a generic word for food, any kind. So this is reflecting on that line in Genesis 1, where I give to you the eisev hasadeh. You get to eat all the stuff growing out of it. Yeah, the vegetation.

00:45:20 Speaker_08
And the beast, they get the wild vegetation out there. Yeah.

00:45:23 Speaker_06
And so... And Nebuchadnezzar turns into the beast. Yeah, totally. Yeah, that's the whole thing.

00:45:28 Speaker_08
But in Genesis 1, it's God giving. It's the word give. To you I give, and to the animals I give. And now it's a poetic meditation on that verse from Genesis 1. He causes the grass to grow for the cattle. This is, again, back to Luke 12.

00:45:46 Speaker_08
Jesus thinks of a raven. Yes, picking berries or whatever and he's off a bush and he says God is giving that creature food. Mm-hmm That's how he would view that situation.

00:45:58 Speaker_06
Yeah, or he would see a cow grazing Mm-hmm, or that's right. Yeah a deer grazing grass.

00:46:05 Speaker_08
Yeah, and he would say God's providing food for that creature Yeah And it's not because they're ignorant that grass grows up out of the ground from seed. They actually are way more familiar with those things than most of us are.

00:46:18 Speaker_02
They know how it works.

00:46:19 Speaker_08
Yeah, because that's their life, farming and so on. But it's their view of the universe, that the universe, we are being hosted by a generous host. Yeah. And so there's no distinction between the grass growing by itself or God giving it to the creature.

00:46:36 Speaker_08
It's the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Verse 15, the grass and vegetation is a gift. Verse 15, and wine that makes the human heart glad so that he may make his face glisten with oil and food that sustains man's heart. This too is a gift from God.

00:46:53 Speaker_08
Verse 16, the trees of Yahweh, the trees of Yahweh drink their fill. So they're rooted in the ground and they can access that deep water below that we don't sink into because of the pillars that Yahweh put there. But the trees, you know, go down.

00:47:11 Speaker_08
Verse 17, The birds build their nest in these trees of Yahweh. Trees of Yahweh. Like this poet looks out and any tree is like, that's Yahweh's tree.

00:47:21 Speaker_01
He's the host.

00:47:23 Speaker_08
Yeah, he's the host. So he put on this event. The high, verse 18, the high mountains are for wild goats. The cliffs are the refuge for the, some kind of rock badger like creature. So look, you can just see what he's doing.

00:47:41 Speaker_08
He just sees all of what we call nature. He sees it as the expression of a generous being. He's just given the right provision and homes for all of these different kinds of creatures. It's working together as a harmonious system.

00:47:58 Speaker_08
Verse 21, the young lions roar after their prey and they seek their food from God.

00:48:05 Speaker_06
So even the lions are being provided by God.

00:48:08 Speaker_08
Yeah, it's like their roaring is their prayers of petition. They're praying. Prayerful roar. Prayerful lions. When the sun rises they withdraw because you know they hunt at night I guess.

00:48:25 Speaker_08
They lie down in their dens, and that's when the humans go out to work, and they labor until the evening. So you got the humans that go out in the day, and they work the land, and then the lions come out.

00:48:37 Speaker_08
And humans, you know, they pray for rain and good weather.

00:48:40 Speaker_06
We have our own roar. That's right.

00:48:43 Speaker_08
And then the lions do the night shift. And everyone, and there's enough for everyone. That's right. That's right. So going towards the final movement. Oh, Yahweh, how many are your works in wisdom?

00:48:56 Speaker_06
It's an all expression of God's wisdom. Not only is there an abundance, but because it came out of a well devised schema.

00:49:06 Speaker_08
It works. Like it all works together. Yeah. The earth is full of your, some translations have creations, others have possessions. The sea, great and broad, swarms without number, animals, oh this is good, animals small and great.

00:49:22 Speaker_08
There the ships move along. The section of the poem opened up with, oh Yahweh, how many are your works? Yeah. In wisdom you made them all. There's the sea, and then verse 26, and there's the ships. Even the ships are his work. That's right.

00:49:36 Speaker_08
Even though clearly the ships are human made, in this worldview they're ultimately Yahweh's work.

00:49:42 Speaker_06
Because we're co-creators. That's right.

00:49:45 Speaker_08
And also, don't forget, the ships move around in that great deep with Leviathan, who you form to play in it. Just because. Yeah, totally. They all wait for you to give them their food in due season. And that's the sea monster.

00:49:59 Speaker_08
Yes, Leviathans, for your Canaanite neighbors. Yeah. It's like, these are deified chaos monsters. Yeah. And in the biblical worldview, they are monsters, but they're under Yahweh's authority. Control. Yeah, authority.

00:50:15 Speaker_06
And they got a big playground. Yeah, huge.

00:50:18 Speaker_08
Which is the abyss. Actually, the hugest playground. Yeah, they wait for you to give them food in due season. You give it to them. They gather it up. You open your hand and they're satisfied with good. So you get the idea here. This is just one.

00:50:34 Speaker_08
We could go to other poems, but this is biblical, that is Jewish creation theology. It's wisdom creation theology. The superabundance of creation is an expression of God's own generosity.

00:50:51 Speaker_08
And if you grew up on that kind of poetry, you know, from your earliest memories, you can see why Jesus could say what he says in Luke 12 and everybody would be like, oh yeah, that's right. I forgot that.

00:51:04 Speaker_08
Or when the Romans are, right, crushing us through taxation and taking all of our farmland, it's easy to forget that this is what's actually true about the world.

00:51:15 Speaker_06
Yeah. Now, someone in that context, even though they have these stories, if they're suffering, I mean, that's got to create some sort of conflict for them, right?

00:51:28 Speaker_06
Like, okay, I believe in the generosity of an abundance of God, what he gave, he's hosting us, but I'm suffering.

00:51:36 Speaker_08
It's not like everything's going to be great. No, that's right. Within a worldview shaped by the biblical story, that's God's wise design and purpose for the ideal of how the world operates.

00:51:47 Speaker_08
It's all given as a gift to humanity and its creatures, the creatures of the world. But, of course, there's a conflict in this story, and that conflict is actually one way to think about the storyline of the Bible.

00:52:01 Speaker_08
is it's people abusing Yahweh's generosity. And instead of seeing Yahweh give and give and give and give generously in creation and then imitating that, what the humans do in Genesis 3 is desire. And take. What is not rightly theirs and then take. Yeah.

00:52:21 Speaker_08
So taking versus giving. It's a simple way to think about the storyline of the Bible is Yahweh gives and what humans do is desire and take.

00:53:06 Speaker_06
You know, there was one conversation we were having, maybe it was Day of the Lord or something, but one takeaway I had was, oh, you can frame the whole story of the Bible in terms of what do humans do with power.

00:53:21 Speaker_10
Oh, yes, yes.

00:53:23 Speaker_06
And what I'm hearing from this conversation is you can frame the whole story of the Bible of what do humans do with abundance.

00:53:29 Speaker_10
Yeah, yeah, right.

00:53:31 Speaker_06
Yes. Because you can thrive in abundance, but then paradoxically, you can create chaos within abundance when you seize it and try to control it. Yes, that's right.

00:53:49 Speaker_08
It is. It's the paradox of wealth and abundance that, yeah, is explored in every part of the biblical story. and collection because it's truly a paradox that to be given these gifts of rich abundance, that's what's going on in the Eden story.

00:54:11 Speaker_08
That's what the Eden story is. Yahweh plants a super abundant garden.

00:54:15 Speaker_06
Yeah, and they're just the human I love the details of the story where it's like he gives them food But he also gives them trees that are just good to look at.

00:54:21 Speaker_08
Yeah, that's right.

00:54:22 Speaker_08
Some are just beautiful Yeah, it's just what they're there for you got like food trees and then he's got like cool trees Yeah, humans wake up in their existence into a world that's just flooded with resources and what does that opportunity do to them and and

00:54:40 Speaker_08
It's actually not great.

00:54:41 Speaker_06
That's a great way to frame the human condition as we experience it right now in this time of history. Us not knowing what to do with abundance.

00:54:49 Speaker_08
With abundance, yes. Yeah, and abundance that both is just there, like latent or potential.

00:54:56 Speaker_08
And then with the abundance that's like created from the stuff that we make off the earlier abundance, then we make new stuff, it creates a new hybrid abundance that's both from creation and then whatever it is, like a fork or something.

00:55:14 Speaker_08
You know, or a car, a Tesla. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's a great, that's exactly it.

00:55:22 Speaker_08
So, for someone sitting there listening to Jesus speak in Luke 12, they also have a category for why is it that I don't experience that carefree existence of a raven or of a lily? Yeah.

00:55:38 Speaker_08
It's because I'm screwed up and my neighbors are screwed up and the Romans, oh man, they're really screwed up. And that's why I don't experience the world as Psalm 104.

00:55:51 Speaker_06
But there's no like, there's no like faction of Ravens that have like all teamed up and built some sort of power structure that's gonna oppress the other Ravens.

00:56:01 Speaker_08
Yeah, it's just kind of one-on-one with the Ravens, isn't it?

00:56:03 Speaker_06
Yeah, they might fight it out over some roadkill, but other than that. Yeah, that's right. They're all getting along.

00:56:10 Speaker_08
Yeah, for the most part, they work in packs. Yeah, no, humans, we use both our potential and opportunity, and then we devise, we create all kinds of horrific ways to deprive each other of abundance or hoard it for certain groups. Right? Yeah.

00:56:32 Speaker_08
Again, within the biblical story, this was the explanation for why the world is the way it is. It's not God's fault. It's humans participating in something horrendously evil to turn the world into an anti-Eden. Yeah.

00:56:50 Speaker_08
Where it's an Eden for some, like the King of Babylon. He gets to live in Eden.

00:56:55 Speaker_06
I got to imagine that most secular philanthropists would agree with this.

00:57:01 Speaker_08
I think so. Sure.

00:57:02 Speaker_06
They wouldn't go like, oh, that's such a weird, ancient, strange, religious way to think of the world. They'd be like, oh yeah, that's a really kind of astute anthropology that you've got there of like, why?

00:57:17 Speaker_06
Because I think there's a sense amongst those who are leaders in philanthropic efforts that there is enough.

00:57:25 Speaker_11
Mm-hmm.

00:57:27 Speaker_06
We can yes work out the details. Yeah, if we could if we're like smarter Yeah, and not as mean to each other.

00:57:35 Speaker_06
Mm-hmm Of course, they aren't they aren't keying into that with that other thing you said which is it's connected to this evil Yes, if you're like doing it from a completely secular point of view.

00:57:44 Speaker_08
Yeah, that's right.

00:57:46 Speaker_06
But yeah, I

00:57:47 Speaker_08
Well, I mean essentially what that worldview you're describing is doing is just taking any sense of another parallel spiritual realm out of it. Right. So both the abundance and goodness doesn't need to have come from another being. Right.

00:58:04 Speaker_08
It just happened. It's just here we are. And therefore all of the horrible ways.

00:58:12 Speaker_06
Yeah, our problem with dealing with abundance.

00:58:15 Speaker_08
Yeah, and all of the lack of abundance because of human power structures. We also don't need to pawn that off onto some other being. Some weird mystical evil. It's just stupid humans who need to get better education.

00:58:33 Speaker_08
Or learn how to be nice to each other. So that is one way of explaining the human condition. Who knows how we got here, but we're here for no particular reason with all this abundance and let's learn how to be nicer to each other.

00:58:47 Speaker_08
And I don't know, what can you say except does that really honor the complexity of the human condition that education doesn't Education doesn't seem to solve the problem of the selfish human heart. It just doesn't. It can improve things.

00:59:04 Speaker_08
It can improve things. A lot. But it doesn't seem to get to the core of the problem. And certainly not according to Jesus. He would say the problem is much deeper and complex.

00:59:16 Speaker_06
The problem that prevents us from living generously within abundance. Correct.

00:59:23 Speaker_08
Yeah, Jesus would locate it where David and Moses locate it in the problem of the human heart, which remember is the center of will and volition, choice and emotion.

00:59:36 Speaker_08
And their diagnosis is that our hearts are hijacked by an animal-like form of selfishness and chaos. that we don't fully understand. And sometimes it's called, in Genesis 4, it's just called sin.

00:59:55 Speaker_08
And in Genesis 3, it's depicted as some kind of other being. And that's where moderns get hung up. But anyhow, we digress perhaps. But this is the worldview.

01:00:07 Speaker_08
I like that idea of the problem of power that we talked about with the day of the Lord is in this frame, the problem of abundance.

01:00:16 Speaker_06
Yeah, yeah, because power can be good.

01:00:20 Speaker_08
Yes, yeah, that's right.

01:00:21 Speaker_06
And abundance is awesome. Abundance is awesome, it can be good. It's a lot easier to see how power can be misused, but it's interesting to think about how abundance is misused. Correct, yeah, yeah.

01:00:37 Speaker_08
This is why the Bible's view of wealth and abundance is actually, aside from these kind of bigger picture creation perspectives, what wealth and abundance does to people in the Bible is almost always negative.

01:00:51 Speaker_08
Actually, the Bible has an extremely negative portrait of wealth and abundance. That actually is really off-putting to modern people who live in capitalist societies. Yeah. I have found that to be true in many contexts.

01:01:08 Speaker_08
Just reading the Bible aloud in settings where there's lots of different kinds of people.

01:01:12 Speaker_02
Yeah.

01:01:13 Speaker_08
I find that the view of wealth doesn't resonate with people who are really invested in certain economic systems. Yeah. It's fascinating. I mean, look at Jesus, what we just read in Luke 12. Just like sell your stuff and give to the poor. Yeah.

01:01:28 Speaker_08
Because it's going to, money is going to corrupt you.

01:01:30 Speaker_06
I've heard that Jesus talked about money more than any other topic in the gospels.

01:01:34 Speaker_08
Oh, in terms of, yeah, if you just count up how much, how many verses or sentences are given to what topics. Yeah. Money and wealth is like in the top three. In the top three. Of just amount of times that he talks about this. Totally.

01:01:47 Speaker_08
Especially in the gospel of Luke, which is where we started.

01:01:50 Speaker_06
The biblical story gives you this abundance mentality. It's beautiful. That doesn't necessitate, then, that the story of the Bible and the scripture should also have this suspicion of wealth.

01:02:06 Speaker_06
It almost seems like the opposite would be true, that if there is an abundance mentality, the Bible wouldn't be suspicious of wealth. It would be celebrating it.

01:02:15 Speaker_08
Yeah, that's right. And it often does. Actually, you know what? As I think about it,

01:02:19 Speaker_08
Maybe a better way to say it is the Bible is suspicious of what wealth does to humans, especially humans who aren't following the way of Jesus, or who are connected to Jesus and how he renewed the human story. Yes, that's a better way to say it.

01:02:40 Speaker_08
Humans in our current condition, it's a toxic cocktail.

01:02:45 Speaker_06
Because Psalm 104, I mean, he's celebrating wealth.

01:02:47 Speaker_08
He's celebrating the wealth that God has loaded in with creation. And that's a great point.

01:02:51 Speaker_06
And the scenes... And also, very specifically, he's celebrating the wealth of food and drink. Correct. Total. That's exactly right.

01:02:58 Speaker_08
And if you look at all the depictions of the new creation in the prophets or in the Revelation, wine flowing from the hills. It's abundant. Yeah, exactly. Oh, all this stuff, you know, the gold and the jewels of the New Jerusalem and the abundance.

01:03:14 Speaker_08
Totally. So you're right. It's more that in the present age with the broken human condition, the Bible's suspicious of wealth in the hands of those kinds of people.

01:03:22 Speaker_06
And that's where I find maybe the corollary to power in that it's the same thing. It's like power to rule. That was a good thing. But then if you actually just pull out all the places where people have power, it's probably all these warnings.

01:03:40 Speaker_08
Don't let it mess you up. So think about Psalm 104, which is itself just reflecting on Genesis 1. Genesis 1 and 2, same portrait of just order brought to chaos and then all this potential packed into creation.

01:03:56 Speaker_08
Genesis 2, it's in the image of God planting a garden in the midst of a wilderness, puts the humans in there. Garden from wilderness. Garden from wilderness. It's a generous act. And from any tree you can eat, except this one that will kill you.

01:04:14 Speaker_08
And the one that will kill you is the one that represents you taking your own, taking moral discernment to define good and evil by your own wisdom. Instead of trusting that I will teach you how to define good and evil.

01:04:29 Speaker_06
Eat from any tree but the one that will prevent you from being a generous person.

01:04:34 Speaker_08
Wow, yeah. Yeah, because the moment you define good and evil by your own wisdom, you're going to start defining as good so that you have a little bit more than that person. Totally.

01:04:46 Speaker_06
It makes perfect sense. It feels very good to have enough.

01:04:51 Speaker_08
And maybe not just for me, maybe for me and my family or me and my tribe. And surely that's a good thing that I provide for my tribe. Oh, but what if it's at the expense of that tribe? Well, they got to take care of themselves.

01:05:03 Speaker_08
They got to take care of themselves. There should be enough for them maybe.

01:05:07 Speaker_06
Okay, so here we go. You almost kind of have to live that way when you're limited by your own understanding.

01:05:13 Speaker_10
Yeah, correct.

01:05:14 Speaker_06
Because you're kind of just stuck.

01:05:17 Speaker_08
It's a great transition for what we can talk about next. If the biblical story can be framed as God's gift of abundance to humans, the plot conflict is how they distort abundance, which is to desire according to their own wisdom and then to take.

01:05:33 Speaker_08
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Bible Project Podcast. Next week, we're going to keep diving into the theme of generosity in the storyline of the Bible.

01:05:42 Speaker_08
We're going to look, as always, at the Garden of Eden stories and explore how they demonstrate God's generosity, His generous, overabundant character. It's going to be awesome. Today's show was produced by Dan Gummel. Theme music was by the band Tense.

01:06:00 Speaker_08
We are a crowdfunded animation studio in Portland, Oregon, and you can find all of our resources at thebibleproject.com. Everything we make is because of your generous support. So thanks for being part of this with us.

01:06:13 Speaker_00
Hola, mi nombre es Oliver. Yo vivo en Silla, Washington. My favorite part is watching the videos before I go to bed.

01:06:23 Speaker_08
And what's your favorite video?

01:06:24 Speaker_00
the Satan and demons. We believe the Bible is a unified story that leads to Jesus. We are a crowdfunded project by people like me. Find free videos, study notes, podcasts, and more at thebibleproject.com.