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Episode: #866 - Jesse James West - How To Stay Disciplined When Times Get Tough

Author: Chris Williamson
Duration: 01:43:34

Episode Shownotes

Jesse James West is a YouTuber and an athlete. Fitness is supposed to be enjoyable. And so is creating content about your favourite hobbies. But what about the dark side you don't see in your favourite influencers? How low were the moments they got to and what are the lessons

to take away? Expect to learn how to overcome the fear and judgement of others, what running every day for 30 days does to your physique, Jesse’s experience from his first time competing in bodybuilding, the current sate of male body dysmorphia, what it was like spending time with Liver King and doing the hardest challenge Jesse has ever done, and much more… Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: https://chriswillx.com/deals Get a 25% discount on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) Get a Free Gift, 5 Free Travel Packs, Free Liquid Vitamin D and more from AG1 at https://drinkag1.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) Gymshark’s biggest sale of the year starts Nov 21st. Get up to 80% off everything sitewide at https://gym.sh/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM10) Get expert bloodwork analysis and bypass Function’s 300,000-person waitlist at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: https://chriswillx.com/books Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: https://tinyurl.com/43hv6y59 #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: https://tinyurl.com/2rtz7avf #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: https://tinyurl.com/3ccn5vkp - Get In Touch: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Summary

In episode #866 of Modern Wisdom, Chris Williamson speaks with Jesse James West about maintaining discipline during tough times. They discuss Jesse's upbringing and the influence of his father's work ethic, the pressures faced in competitive sports, and early lessons in personal growth and self-advocacy. The conversation highlights Jesse's journey through mental health challenges, including experiences with SSRIs, and the importance of discomfort in training and life decisions. Jesse shares transformative experiences, such as a month of daily running and Navy SEAL training, emphasizing resilience, camaraderie, and the necessity of challenging oneself for personal fulfillment.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (#866 - Jesse James West - How To Stay Disciplined When Times Get Tough) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_01
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. My guest today is Jesse James West. He's a YouTuber and an athlete. Fitness is supposed to be enjoyable, and so is creating content about your favorite hobbies.

00:00:12 Speaker_01
But what about the dark side you don't get to see in your favorite influencers? How low were the moments that they got to? And what are the lessons to take away from that?

00:00:21 Speaker_01
Expect to learn how to overcome the fear and judgment of others, what running every day for 30 days does to your physique, Jesse's experience from his first time competing in bodybuilding, the current state of male body dysmorphia, what it was like spending an entire day with the liver king, the hardest challenge that Jesse has ever done, and much more.

00:00:41 Speaker_01
But now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Jesse James West. Where does stay relentless come from?

00:01:07 Speaker_02
The relentless part, that comes from my father, 100%, where he definitely ingrained in my head being relentless. I feel like without saying, stay relentless to me, just sort of by his actions throughout life.

00:01:22 Speaker_02
And I believe that as I have gotten older, as I played sports my entire life, and obviously not now, but from 11 years old all the way until 18 years old playing sports,

00:01:34 Speaker_02
I discovered the whole non-stop, continuously grinding, and the more work you put in, the more you get out.

00:01:42 Speaker_02
And I feel like that sort of defined who I am, and I feel that that's something that I've always aspired to be, is to be the hardest worker in the room. And to do that, you need to be relentless.

00:01:52 Speaker_02
I mean, like you look at the dictionary definition, I'm sort of explaining it. And it really stuck with me. And I was like, I feel like this is this is something that I embody and also can sort of motivate others to become, hopefully.

00:02:06 Speaker_02
What's your dad got to do with that my dad so my dad he's a blue collar guy he is. John so john is a blue collar man he has worked many jobs he's cut wood in the winter and made me load it next to him and stuff so he is always had.

00:02:25 Speaker_02
a lot on his plate and just never really complained or anything. He just always did it, did it, did it, get it done, get it done, and never had an excuse either.

00:02:32 Speaker_02
And I was like, sort of growing up around him was very much, he believed that that's how I should be as well. So one, by showing me and two, by always like telling me like, If there's something that needs to get done, you don't wait, you do it now.

00:02:46 Speaker_02
If you are trying to be great at something, you go practice, you get better and you will be great. Like it was very like tough love and stuff, but he always was, he had a million, he had five rental properties all at once. He was a landlord too.

00:03:01 Speaker_02
He fixed everything in the house, rebuilt the entire house on top of a normal nine to five that he wakes up at like four in the morning, driving an hour into the city, doing work. So it was like witnessing that firsthand,

00:03:12 Speaker_02
It was almost like I grew up with no excuse to be made. So I feel like that really ingrained in my head from a young age, just being relentless and like, that's just who I am. And it's like, I can't not be that way.

00:03:23 Speaker_01
It took a while for me, my sport growing up was cricket, which is much more gentlemanly. You play cricket? Yeah, that was my game for a decade. But it's also not only gentlemanly, but quite gentle as well. It's very much an art form.

00:03:37 Speaker_01
It's almost exclusively about skill. S&C for it is primarily just for injury prevention. So the line of the hard work, what you put in is what you get out, that line wasn't really made clear to me until I got into the world of business and university.

00:03:56 Speaker_01
Even at school, I don't know, I just didn't, I kind of wish that I did, but I didn't draw the line between hard work equals good performance. I'm aware that that's a very basic realization. It didn't come to me until I was much older.

00:04:10 Speaker_01
But what does being an 11 to 18, 19 year old lacrosse? I play lacrosse, yeah. What does that philosophy when you're still a child feel like?

00:04:25 Speaker_02
You know, it was very difficult to like comprehend as a kid. Looking back, it all makes sense. And I'm like, I have no regrets on my relationship with my dad, my relationship with coaches and sports.

00:04:38 Speaker_02
But playing lacrosse, I was fortunately very good at it right away. And I feel like whenever I was good at something, definitely my family was like, we got to, we got to push them the most we possibly can.

00:04:52 Speaker_02
And specifically my mom pushed me a lot, but like my dad definitely pushed me a lot. It was like, you see those dads on like a documentary shows about like a football player or something.

00:05:01 Speaker_01
Classic sports dad.

00:05:01 Speaker_02
Classic sports dad that's just like, my son's going to be the best. He's going to be the greatest. He's going to work harder than everybody. And it was very much that, which, but I did enjoy, I loved lacrosse. So I didn't see it as a problem.

00:05:10 Speaker_02
So it was, it was sort of like, he's inducing that, that sort of relentless vibe to my life and like practice. And then my love for the sport also coming together, it worked very well from a young age. So like I saw no problem with it.

00:05:23 Speaker_02
My mom saw no problem with it.

00:05:24 Speaker_01
The drive and the passion of working together.

00:05:26 Speaker_02
Like just, it met well and the synergy was there of his ideation and my love for the sport. And then as time went on and I got older, you know, I discovered the gym. I really fell in love with bodybuilding.

00:05:38 Speaker_02
I saw, I watched people like Christian Guzman on YouTube, an OG YouTuber in the fitness world. And I was like, you know, I love lacrosse. I want to play, I want to play pro right now. Or in the future, I want to play pro.

00:05:48 Speaker_02
And I have the aspirations to be the best in the country. But part of me, my inner soul isn't being fulfilled. And as you get older, I feel like you discover that more and more.

00:06:01 Speaker_02
And as I approached 15, 16, 17, I realized maybe lacrosse isn't going to be my end goal. Maybe there's something more for me like fitness or doing YouTube. I really didn't have that desire from a young age. Let me add this.

00:06:15 Speaker_02
I made YouTube videos since I was 12. You look up Spartan Strings online right now, and I am on the internet. I'm like, hi, I'm Jesse James Webb. I'm like a little boy on the internet.

00:06:25 Speaker_02
But I had aspirations outside of lacrosse that just kept getting bigger and bigger. And the problem was that

00:06:32 Speaker_02
My dad, his aspiration was to push me in lacrosse and push me to my absolute limits, waking up early for workouts, chugging mass gainer shakes. You got to gain weight. You got to get bigger. You got to be stronger than everybody else.

00:06:47 Speaker_02
Out there in the rain, the snow, the hail, throwing the ball to me. What was home for you? Home was New Jersey.

00:06:52 Speaker_01
Right. Okay.

00:06:53 Speaker_02
And so we're in the boondocks in the fricking woods. He's tossing the ball, it's pouring, it's snowing, doesn't matter what the weather is.

00:06:59 Speaker_02
And we're getting the reps in because like, I do have this love, so I don't see it as too much of a problem, but then there's just a little bit too much force from him to do it, where it almost kind of pushed that love away from the sport.

00:07:10 Speaker_02
And I was like, I just wanna bodybuild, I wanna lift, I wanna do these things. And you know, it developed into what it is today. So I'm like super grateful of every aspect of where my life went.

00:07:21 Speaker_02
But it kind of, we had our struggles and stuff of our relationship because of the love of the sport dying and his push becoming more. So it was like a pendulum.

00:07:33 Speaker_01
He feels you pulling away. It's almost like being in a relationship with someone and they're pulling away and you're continuing to push. Exactly.

00:07:37 Speaker_02
And honestly, even coaches started feeling me pull away and then I got the pressure from them too. So it was like this very odd thing to grow up with.

00:07:45 Speaker_02
I was 15 years old, I committed to Lehigh university, which is like a very prestigious academic, uh, university. And I committed when I was 15. Like I, they were like, you are, you're going to be on a 90% scholarship in four years from now.

00:07:59 Speaker_02
So I'm like 15 years old, I'm going on college visits. I went to Loyola Rutgers. Uh, I was looking at Virginia. I was looking at Lehigh, obviously. I went to UDEL. I'm pitching myself to these coaches as a 15-year-old.

00:08:13 Speaker_02
My mom's driving me there like, this is so cool. And I'm like, this is awesome. But also, I'm negotiating with a 45-year-old coach at 15. It's very odd.

00:08:22 Speaker_01
Were you quite mature?

00:08:23 Speaker_02
I feel like I had to be because, like, I literally would be going into business meetings one-on-one with a coach in a button-up at 15 years old, basically saying, like, why... Trying to hold it together.

00:08:34 Speaker_02
Trying to hold it together and try to understand. I'm like, what the hell is going on? But I'm trying to pitch myself to this coach of why I should be on his team in four years from now. They got rid of that rule.

00:08:42 Speaker_02
Like, NCAA came in and was like, this is ridiculous. You can't scout children. You can't scout children, literally. It's like, two, it's just too far. Now they have to wait till their, their, uh, September of their junior year to even talk to them.

00:08:54 Speaker_01
What age is that?

00:08:55 Speaker_02
Right.

00:08:56 Speaker_01
So a good, I feel like there's a big difference between 15 and 17. Oh, dude.

00:08:59 Speaker_02
Yeah. So like, that was a very interesting aspect of my life where it definitely looking back now helps me drastically in business meetings. Now, like I have no discomfort in a business for the best part of a decade, literally. So it's, I'm only 24.

00:09:12 Speaker_02
So for the last nine years, I'm pitching myself to companies saying, oh, why should you give me a higher scholarship than the next place? And so I landed a scholarship at 15 for, let's say, about $200,000-ish for a four-year period.

00:09:27 Speaker_02
It's a verbal commitment. You're not actually signed. You can leave, but you're shunned if you leave. Why would you leave this opportunity? especially given that you're getting education essentially for free. Literally.

00:09:37 Speaker_02
And my parents, they're middle class, middle, upper class by now. And this was something like, you're either going to community or you're going to get a scholarship, which is nothing wrong with community college, but they wanted me to go play sports.

00:09:49 Speaker_02
So they were kind of dangling in front of me like, you need to go do this. And I thought that was the best path for me. And obviously things changed as I'm sure we'll get into, but Things were very interesting from like 15 to 17, 18.

00:10:03 Speaker_02
I feel like I grew up 10 years in those two years, and obviously it led me here, but very unique.

00:10:10 Speaker_01
What is negotiating? I think a lot of people, even those that aren't still 15, can resonate with this sort of having multiple desires at once.

00:10:22 Speaker_01
So I have one thing which I may be very good at and the world gives me recognition for, or perhaps I have a job title, or maybe that provides for me or my family in one way or another.

00:10:32 Speaker_01
And then I've got this other thing that's kind of my secret passion, I almost feel a little bit ashamed about, weirdly, because it's not the main thing and I've committed so much time to it, so I've got sunk cost fallacy into the old thing.

00:10:44 Speaker_01
What have you learned about balancing those two and the sort of split brain existence that you have there.

00:10:52 Speaker_02
I, I discovered a lot once I actually got to college, you know, through those years from 15 to 18, it was like growing up quick. And then by the time I was 18, it was very much in your face. This is reality now.

00:11:03 Speaker_02
And now I, instead of this idea of, I want to go do this thing, but I'm, but I'm contracted by a lacrosse team to go perform that didn't exist beforehand, but now it's in place. I am at practice. I am at, I'm in front of the coach.

00:11:16 Speaker_02
He's telling me that I need to do these things. I'm in front of a tutor because I'm failing out of a class that I can't handle.

00:11:22 Speaker_02
And with all that on my plate, which many people can relate to, everyone's busy, everyone's schedules hard, everyone's trying their best, but maybe not succeeding yet. They want to be there.

00:11:34 Speaker_02
And then you have this love for something else, like bodybuilding, like content. And I'm in this situation and I'm young and I'm figuring out that it is only on me to make these decisions.

00:11:48 Speaker_02
I'm very good at being told what to do and listening and doing it great.

00:11:55 Speaker_02
And that has gotten me places but also hurt my own personal soul at the same time because if I don't have that desire to go do it, I could still do it and I'll do it great and I'll do a fantastic job.

00:12:05 Speaker_01
Yeah, I had this insight around, did you ever hear me talk about the region beta paradox?

00:12:13 Speaker_01
So it's where you feel sort of comfortably numb and you're stuck in this weird sort of interquartile range where things aren't so bad that they're terrible, but they're not sufficiently good that you're actually living an amazing life.

00:12:28 Speaker_01
And I had this, so this thing went kind of viral after I told Rogan about it. And I came up with this idea called the reverse region beta paradox.

00:12:36 Speaker_01
Being in an aggressively terrible working cadence or environment, but having such a tolerance for discomfort that you can endure it for a lifetime, lower resilience, less stubborn people would snap and have to find a way to change. But not you.

00:12:49 Speaker_01
You're the David Goggins of working hard. Who's going to carry the workload? You are, forever.

00:12:55 Speaker_02
You're like speaking my language right now. For so long, You know, my dad and coaches and stuff, and I love my dad. I don't want people to think otherwise.

00:13:05 Speaker_02
We have a great relationship now, but there was definitely rocky times with him and being on the lacrosse team where I was so good at just freaking being uncomfortable. I was like, this is my life. I've accepted this.

00:13:18 Speaker_01
Even if I'm not so happy, even if I don't want to do it.

00:13:20 Speaker_02
Yup.

00:13:21 Speaker_01
Yup.

00:13:21 Speaker_02
I honestly just like, and this might shock a lot of people, I genuinely thought I was just a depressed person. Like for years I was like, I'm just depressed. Like, I don't think I'm ever going to escape this.

00:13:30 Speaker_02
And that's just, I have anxiety and depression. That's me. But then when I was about 18, I realized that I am the only one, like let's say it's David Goggins, I'm the only one that can carry the damn boat, okay?

00:13:42 Speaker_02
And that boat is going to crush me if I don't decide to do something with it.

00:13:46 Speaker_02
So I'll never forget, I remember calling my mom and I was like, mom, and she's a very like opposite of my dad, where my dad's like tough love, she's very like soft nurturing love.

00:13:57 Speaker_02
And I was like, I can't handle this, I'm making the decision, I'm quitting, I know this is gonna shock the entire family, it's gonna shock the coaches, do a bunch of stuff, I have paperwork, find a new college.

00:14:10 Speaker_02
We just got here like a month and a half ago at Lehigh and I'm like, how long did you last? I did one full semester, but it was like, we got in on like mid-August and by October I was like, this is the worst feeling I've ever felt in my life.

00:14:24 Speaker_02
I have to be done or this is gonna end badly in like a year. And I consciously picked up that fucking boat and was like, I'm out.

00:14:34 Speaker_02
And it was a very empowering and it was a very strong spiritual awakening of inner peace, of making this decision for yourself. So for anyone that's listening and trying to understand it in their scenario,

00:14:47 Speaker_02
You're the only one that can pull yourself out and like save yourself. Like truly, there might be people that can help you.

00:14:53 Speaker_02
You can lean on, you can, you know, you can count on them always, you know, talking you off the ledge or whatever it might be helping you.

00:15:00 Speaker_02
But at the end of the day, there's one person that can truly make a decision and do things for you and it's yourself and you have no choice but to make those decisions as uncomfortable as they are and scary as they are.

00:15:11 Speaker_02
You have, like you have to do these things and make those decisions that are tough.

00:15:15 Speaker_01
Let's just linger on that for a second. So it's got me thinking about the fact that I'm a big proponent of encouraging people to have social support.

00:15:24 Speaker_01
I think in a world that's fragmented and atomized and everyone's a droid bleep-bleeping their way through TikTok, spending a lot of time and having a strong social circle is a really good thing.

00:15:33 Speaker_01
And you lean on friends, they help you with lots of stuff. but there's a particular category of decision or maybe a number of categories of decisions that your friends simply can't help you with.

00:15:44 Speaker_01
They're not going to help you leave a relationship or leave a job or move house or change country. Once you've made the hard decision, as in the pivot in direction, they can sort of help you speed up or help you slow down.

00:15:58 Speaker_01
They can bring you into land if you, oh man, I'm going to have the conversation with my boyfriend or girlfriend and I really don't want to do so on and so forth. They can help with that bit.

00:16:07 Speaker_01
But the actual, what am I going to do if it's a hard left or right turn, there is nowhere else to hide.

00:16:13 Speaker_01
I mean, you can have a conversation with them and you can talk it out, but there's nobody else that's going to come and leave the job, or the relationship, or the flat, or the country, or tell your parents that you do or don't want to do that thing that they do or don't want you to do.

00:16:27 Speaker_02
It's so important. I've learned this in the past. I mean, decade for sure, but the past few months, I have really thought to myself about not having fear, because I think- You've got fearless tattoo. I have a fearless tattoo right here.

00:16:40 Speaker_02
I have many words on my body that I try to just live by. So I'd be like relentless, fearless, empathy, which always trying to work on being more empathetic, caring as much as possible.

00:16:50 Speaker_02
I think surrounding people, your surrounding core can also support those meaningful things to yourself. But being fearless, It's not just going and doing something, oh, I'm going to jump off a cliff because I'm scared of it.

00:17:01 Speaker_02
It's doing the things that, like quitting your job, because you're so passionate in this other thing and you're like, I'm going to make this happen.

00:17:08 Speaker_02
I think being so fearless in my decision of leaving a scholarship, it was something that I didn't even realize I was doing.

00:17:15 Speaker_02
But I think it's where I make mistakes in life and have to learn the most, which is always good to learn from your mistakes, but where I make the most mistakes is when I'm in fear.

00:17:24 Speaker_02
when I have fear and it alters my decision or like puts these glasses on my face that I don't even know they're on. And I'm doing things and I'm acting a certain way and I'm like, wow, I messed up pretty bad here.

00:17:38 Speaker_02
I made this decision was so stupid because I was afraid of XYZ.

00:17:42 Speaker_01
Well, you're compensating to not do the one thing that you know you probably should do, but are terrified of doing.

00:17:48 Speaker_01
You've got this large, important elephant that you need to slit the throat of, and you're going to run around this entire jungle as opposed to just facing that one elephant.

00:17:59 Speaker_01
Homozi says, I think it's Leila actually, that says, fear is an inch deep and a mile wide. So when you look at it, it looks like a huge ocean that's going to cause you to drown.

00:18:08 Speaker_01
But when you step in it, you realize it's just, it's really shallow and you're going to survive.

00:18:11 Speaker_02
And I think it's really important to do things daily, have daily habits of getting in the gym, doing things that are very difficult. Maybe you join a run club, like we talked in our panel.

00:18:23 Speaker_02
Join a new run club, start CrossFit, or sign up for a marathon. Like I said, getting in an ice bath is a great example. It's like literally one of the reasons I do it. Cause like every day you look at that thing and you're like, I hate you.

00:18:35 Speaker_02
This is going to hurt. I'm kind of afraid to get in right now, but doing those little things that you can accomplish and get over fear for add up. And then let's like, it's like building habit and building blocks.

00:18:45 Speaker_02
So that way, when you have these really hard things of like, Hey, that relationship's not working, this job isn't working. You at least know the, the habitual side of it.

00:18:54 Speaker_01
Yeah, well, you've got a basis where you're not super fragile. And if somebody sort of hits you a little bit, you're not going to shatter into a thousand pieces. That being said, I'm very good at the discomfort, train, breath work, ice bath thing.

00:19:11 Speaker_01
But for me, I'm a perennial people pleaser. I hate making other people feel uncomfortable. So I'm a pretty good example for someone that stuff actually the hardness comes easy in the physical realm, in the mindfulness realm, and all the rest of it.

00:19:26 Speaker_01
But when it comes to the social realm, that never really translated over that much. So one of the things that at least I've learned over the last, probably only the last year, that is a good

00:19:39 Speaker_01
daily habit or a regular habit to think about leaning into, what you're talking about is basically taking the stairs, doing something that's a tiny little bit more difficult than it maybe needs to be.

00:19:47 Speaker_01
That's the ice bath, that's the sauna, that's the whatever. A social equivalent of that, which has made me braver and fear less in social scenarios, is making my making my demands on my feelings known, like basically arguing for my own side.

00:20:08 Speaker_01
So somebody says, asks me how the day's going. I'm like, dude, you know what it is? Actually, things are a bit tough at the moment. Or X, Y, and Z. A conversation where you know that you need to tell somebody about how they made you feel.

00:20:24 Speaker_01
Gotta tell you, man, I know that you probably didn't mean it, but the other day, that thing that happened, that really pissed me off. And I don't want this to impact our friendship, but I don't want that to happen again.

00:20:35 Speaker_01
And this is how it made me feel. And I just wanted to let you know, because I cherish this friendship. That's a really difficult conversation to have, but those little things... So again, the reason I say that is that

00:20:46 Speaker_01
I feel like there's a big cohort of people who are great at making themselves suffer in work, in physical training, in diet, in whatever it is. And then they still get into the social realm. I feel like a pussy.

00:20:57 Speaker_01
Why am I such a pussy when it comes to having a difficult conversation with a boss or a coworker or a friend or a girlfriend? And that make your demands known. Advocate for yourself. That's what I meant to say.

00:21:09 Speaker_01
Advocate for your own needs and make them a priority and tell other people gently. And again, proving that if you apply a little bit of pressure, you're not made of glass and you're not going to shatter.

00:21:20 Speaker_01
But one of my old boxing coaches said that the most important lesson that you learn in boxing is that when you get hit in the face, you're not going to break.

00:21:29 Speaker_01
That when you see new boxers, maybe even up to amateur boxers, there's a degree of flinch, the flinch response. But once you've beaten that and you realize... Do you ever remember that

00:21:41 Speaker_01
Conor McGregor sequence that he did against, who was the second guy that he won the title off, the lightweight title? Not Aldo. Khabib? I have no clue. Who was the second dude that he won it off? You can see Chase is opening up his laptop.

00:21:57 Speaker_01
Anyway, he throws this combination, but the combination begins with this overhand right from the guy that he's fighting against. It makes the end of Connor's nose go like that. But he just knows the distance so well.

00:22:14 Speaker_01
And I always think about that punch sort of incoming, and him basically understanding his tolerance, his resilience, and knowing that that wasn't going to hurt. And he doesn't even blink. His eyes are open. Eddie Alvarez. Wow.

00:22:31 Speaker_01
He doesn't even blink and this fist comes in and touches him on the nose. And then from there, he's just open to do this. So I think it's socially the same with that.

00:22:41 Speaker_01
Have this difficult conversation, advocate for your own needs, make your needs a priority and believe that they're worthwhile. and show that the world's not going to break down.

00:22:51 Speaker_01
People aren't going to call you a selfish, egotistical narcissist for doing it. And that's a good daily practice too, I think. 100%. Trust really is everything when it comes to supplements.

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00:24:04 Speaker_01
Your high school, I remember you saying that when you started doing something a little bit different, your high school became very judgy, and they weren't exactly super supportive.

00:24:15 Speaker_01
But as a young person, how do you overcome the judgment of others if you don't have the support of people around you?

00:24:22 Speaker_02
So I have like so many scenarios in my head of like sort of screwed up things that people would do or say or what they were. I'll explain them.

00:24:30 Speaker_02
So when I was, let's just say 15 to 17, I don't exactly remember what exactly what age, but I started my fitness page, which is now my Instagram. And it was called Jesse James fitness. You know, it has a little ring to it.

00:24:42 Speaker_02
You know, it's like it's clearly not my just name. It's like, oh, this brand that I'm trying to do, you know, sell T-shirts, wear programs, whatever it might be. And obviously, I said I had aspirations of being a YouTuber and all that stuff.

00:24:53 Speaker_02
And as you're in high school, at least in my high school, Back then also, additionally, it was not as normal to try to start a YouTube, but there was no TikTok, like Instagram and stuff. And they see this and they see me trying to do it.

00:25:07 Speaker_02
I have a good physique at this point. Like there's no, it's not even like I have no, no physique, no, no, nothing.

00:25:12 Speaker_01
Yeah.

00:25:13 Speaker_02
It's not even like I'm really just trying to be a wannabe. I genuinely could already be in the, in the industry. In my opinion, I have good genetics. Thank you, mom and dad. And at this point, I have like a few thousand maybe followers.

00:25:27 Speaker_02
And honestly, a lot of them are probably just from lacrosse. And I go to the pep rally of like freshmen, sophomore, junior, seniors. Everybody's at their own bleacher. There's doing tug of war, doing challenges, battle of the classes, it was called.

00:25:41 Speaker_02
And I'm a freshman at this time, I remember right now, or a sophomore, whatever. And the seniors all chant, Jesse James Fitness, Jesse James Fitness, and I'm standing there and I'm like, shit, okay, I can do two things here.

00:25:56 Speaker_02
I can look down and just like admit defeat and like let them win and I'm not like that at all. you know, I can keep my chin up. I can look at them. I can double bicep flex and say, what do you want? What do you want?

00:26:10 Speaker_02
So we were going out for tug of war and that's when they were doing it. And I just look at him and I'm like, and I flex in my head, my soul. I'm like, I'm panicking. I'm uncomfortable. I'm embarrassed. I'm so embarrassed.

00:26:21 Speaker_02
Like there's the girls behind you that you want to date the friends that you, you know, you're making and all this stuff. And like, I'm trying to be cool and whatnot, but I'm like,

00:26:30 Speaker_02
I can't let them see that like it's a it's a poker face that I got to keep on because at least at least I can win that. And I feel like I kept doing that for so long. I really did like partially not give a fuck, but also you always give a fuck.

00:26:42 Speaker_02
I still give a fuck. I get a hate comment now. If I get enough of them, I'm still going to give a fuck. I'm never not going to give a fuck. If you don't care, that's just because you don't have a desire in this anymore. And I remember I do the flex.

00:26:54 Speaker_02
We do the tug of war or whatever. And then in the hallways, they'd be like, I'd be like, what's up bro? What's up? Like, you know what? I'm on phase. I don't care. And I feel like people really started to pick up on that.

00:27:06 Speaker_02
And like, they're like, damn, this, this, this MF-er is like not breaking. And these were like the, the junior or the grade above me or whatever. Uh, the, the cool kids. I called them the entitled kids. They very much were. No hate against them now.

00:27:22 Speaker_02
Everyone, no big deal. It made me who I was. But another time was a kid for Halloween. And he might even be watching this. I forgive you. It's OK. He dressed up as me. Hey, no kidding. He dressed up as me.

00:27:39 Speaker_02
And I remember seeing this and I was like, this is this is a this is a new level. I have to accept like this is fucked. And honestly, like, I'll get into it more. So he, he dresses up in me. He has a fucking muscle suit on at a party.

00:27:51 Speaker_02
We're probably 16, 17. He was one of the kids. I'd like go drink with his friends. I drank a little when I was in high school, whatever. And I wasn't really a partier. I didn't have time. I was playing lacrosse every day.

00:28:01 Speaker_02
And I was like, I'm sitting at home, seeing on my, on my Instagram. And I'm like, wow. This fucker is dressing up as me right now.

00:28:07 Speaker_02
It says Jesse James fitness and like those things just like stick with you as like a driving motivation of like why I want to make it even more. It's almost like a trauma trauma reaction. Like I was traumatized.

00:28:18 Speaker_02
My reaction is I'm going to I'm going to win. You're not going to, you're not going to control me. I'm going to defeat you and everything in front of me. You're just a wall that I have to break through, you know?

00:28:28 Speaker_02
And if I can't handle this, I don't deserve what I want. Like if you, that, that was my mindset. And I saw that I remember.

00:28:34 Speaker_02
And, and you know, what's crazy is that now you probably a few months ago, he messaged, I'm not, I would never name him, but he messaged me about my Michael Chandler collab. And he's like, dude, saw the Chandler collab. So sick. Great job.

00:28:49 Speaker_02
And I was like,

00:28:51 Speaker_01
huh weren't you and i was like honestly thank you it's one of those weird things about having a chip on your shoulder about stuff that happened in your past that maybe some kids knew or in reflection realized how much it might've impacted you.

00:29:09 Speaker_01
But a lot of the time, it's just kids being kids. And that's very strange, right? Because the impact of something is so much greater than the estimate of it. It hurts way more than what was thrown, if that makes sense.

00:29:24 Speaker_01
And that's a really strange thing, I think, for people, a circle for them to square. How can it be the case that this person doesn't deserve for me to still bear a grudge against them? You still remember it now, maybe 10 years later. It's crazy.

00:29:41 Speaker_02
It definitely stung for a while, but it's also one of the things that For some reason, and I'm gonna assume that it's from my mom, the way she raised me and always hyped me up in a way, she believed in me before I believed in me.

00:29:56 Speaker_02
And she believed in me so much that I ended up believing in myself in everything. I weirdly believe in myself for things I shouldn't believe in myself for. I'm like, I could be a musician if I wanted. Let's be real, Jesse, you're a little tone deaf.

00:30:10 Speaker_02
But like, you know what I mean? Like I had that mindset that's ingrained in me and from a young age. So seeing those things happen and then she would kind of be the, she'd be like the backbone. She'd be like, you can't let this affect you.

00:30:20 Speaker_02
Like in reality, this is not doing anything. It's really not doing anything. The only thing I could do is hurt you and then you're just stopping yourself from doing anything. Cause it's in your head.

00:30:30 Speaker_02
Like no one else is seeing that and going, you know what? I'm not gonna support Jesse. Cause that kid wore a muscle suit. Like that shit doesn't exist. It's all how we perceive it.

00:30:40 Speaker_02
So having that like backbone and belief in my body that my mom instilled me from a young age, I feel like is one of the reasons that I am in the position I am where I have so much unconditional belief in myself that I tell people that if you believe in yourself and you actually believe, not just like, oh, I believe in myself because I was told by Chris and Jesse on a podcast too.

00:31:01 Speaker_02
Like if you genuinely believe in yourself, you are 75% already there. towards your goals, like you will accomplish them. If you believe yourself, put in the work, it's done.

00:31:11 Speaker_01
What has been the, what's been the process of closing the loop with your dad? Yes.

00:31:21 Speaker_01
Having been pushed so hard, presumably a lot of disappointment when the thing that he's worked on with you for nearly a decade goes like, pull the pin and just toss it out the window.

00:31:33 Speaker_02
Oh, that was a, that was a very hard time. Honestly, for my whole family, because like me, it's me, my sister, my mom, my dad, and we're all very close. We all communicated a ton in great relationships. And for years, it was all great.

00:31:46 Speaker_02
But then with my dad being so, and he, cause he thought this was the best for me. He thought this is going to make Jesse successful. He's going to have security when he's older. Like this, it was out of love.

00:31:58 Speaker_02
It was just this love that was, I guess you could say, hurtful in a way and like a little toxic. And so I go through, I'll give you the kind of like the rundown of quitting and like ripping and pulling the pin on the grenade and chucking it.

00:32:12 Speaker_02
I call my mom, I call my sister, I believe first, I've always kind of gone to her as like, all right, what do I do? Like, she's just kind of like another parent to me.

00:32:20 Speaker_02
And she's like, you're gonna have to like, just call mom, tell her what's going on, she'll handle dad. That was kind of always how it went. Like, mom's gonna handle dad. And I tell my mom and she's like, I'll talk to your father.

00:32:31 Speaker_02
And basically, my mom tells me the conversation went like this. They came to visit me at Lehigh during an alumni game. We were playing a game. And after the game, we went to Target. Me and my mom are going in, just getting like college supply stuff.

00:32:43 Speaker_02
Because when you go early in sports, you don't go and everyone else starts. And I go in there, and this has been, I've been there for about three weeks, and I'm really fucking struggling, like very, very depressed.

00:32:55 Speaker_02
And i break down crying to her just like i can't keep it in like and i'm just walking target like about to like shot the check out aisles to my right.

00:33:06 Speaker_02
And i start tearing up and i'm and i'm like oh my god and i look at her and i'm like i'm like something so fucking wrong. Like I, I, I feel like I can't feel anything. I have no interest in like women right now.

00:33:20 Speaker_02
And now that I was pursuing anything else, but just like my emotion of who Jesse was like, I always wanted to go out and like talk to the girls. Didn't care at all. None of that social media, I was still doing it, but I was just like, fuck man.

00:33:33 Speaker_02
Like my desire of everything is gone. The only thing I had that kept me sane was lifting and music. Then drop my mom and dad are in the car. My dad doesn't know. I just cried. I'm like fucking suck it up. Like you're fine. Like get in the car.

00:33:54 Speaker_02
Like I'm the good boy. That's fucking completing this mission of ours. And when she drops me off, she told me something the conversation. She looked at my dad and was like, you're not saying a word. He's leaving. You have no say.

00:34:08 Speaker_02
So shout out Karen to this fucking legend. And she's like, you have to accept this. And that's how it is. Period. End of conversation.

00:34:15 Speaker_02
And I feel like he kind of knew for a while, like I know we're skipping parts in the story of like my darkness and stuff, but like he kind of caught the idea a little bit like my son struggling, but I feel like he kind of didn't want to admit it.

00:34:28 Speaker_02
And but what that did was it broke down this massive barrier

00:34:33 Speaker_02
of how my dad thought I should go about life and also broke down a massive barrier for myself that maybe I don't have to listen to everyone telling me to do things and maybe I should just listen to myself and actually like pursue things that I want to and I haven't I haven't been able to in

00:34:53 Speaker_02
six years of my life. I've been playing lacrosse every day, every weekend, missing homecoming, uh, late to prom, leaving prom weekend because I gotta go play in an all-star game. Like the shit never ended. And like,

00:35:05 Speaker_02
It definitely was dedication and relentless right there, but that shit stuck with me for so long. I didn't get anything for a while of experience that normal people have, and I feel like it just hit a big breaking point when I got to college.

00:35:24 Speaker_02
It was, uh, it was then now, like my mom tells my dad, Jesse's out accepted, or, you know, you're not gonna have a relationship with your son. Basically. I, then, you know, I come home for the weekend.

00:35:35 Speaker_02
Um, I talked to my dad and stuff and he's like, he's very understanding. He's like, honestly, I, I would, I, I don't want to speak for him, but I think it's one of his biggest regrets is pushing me that.

00:35:46 Speaker_02
that far to my limits where as a father, you never want to push your son into depression or anything. Not that he pushed me there, but like his actions added up.

00:35:55 Speaker_01
The setup.

00:35:55 Speaker_02
Yeah. And I know like we have a great relationship now. We did throughout years. It was up and down, good, bad sometimes. Now it's a great relationship. But during that time, it definitely like changed his mindset of like, just everything.

00:36:09 Speaker_02
And really like John had to become a new man and accept things and I had to become a new man and learn that I have to say what I want in life, do what I want. And like you said, hold yourself.

00:36:21 Speaker_02
I have to advocate for myself at all times because I, this was a saying that I stuck with. Do what you're meant to, not what you're supposed to.

00:36:29 Speaker_02
Everyone is always supposed to be doing something, but if you're not meant to be doing that, why the fuck are you doing it? Like, seriously.

00:36:35 Speaker_01
I wonder how many people have gone through their entire lives never doing anything that they weren't supposed to do. You know, that there's...

00:36:44 Speaker_01
It's just been one big series of dominoes from when they were born until now, whatever age they are, where they never told their dad or the equivalent of it that they didn't want to do lacrosse.

00:36:57 Speaker_02
Yeah, and it's like one of my main missions on social media. Yes, I wanna do big things, make cool videos, but like the true why of like the core of why I started, why I do all this was because I went through that.

00:37:13 Speaker_02
And I feel like I went through such a dark phase of my life with such a bright awakening. I was like, people need to know this shit. Like people need to just not be told it, but shown it.

00:37:25 Speaker_02
I would, I'd advocate for myself that on my channel, it's me living my best life, doing cool things that I have desires that I'm interested in. You know, I'm interested in Vikings.

00:37:33 Speaker_02
I'm going to go fricking Norway, jump off cliff of Vikings and eat and drink mead and do these cool things. It's like, that's something I've always wanted to do. I have a lot of fascination and stuff like that.

00:37:41 Speaker_02
And I always wanted to leave a subconscious message with my videos. Like if you're not living life to the fullest, like you are missing out on so much.

00:37:50 Speaker_02
And I hope that people can watch this and realize that you are worth that meant to life rather than that's supposed to life. And I hope people can. pursue their meant to eventually.

00:38:02 Speaker_01
Yeah, it's scary man. That's, you know, why I think advocating for yourself, making your needs known, almost, there's this sort of assumption a lot of people have, very much a British thing, but maybe working class thing too, that

00:38:17 Speaker_01
Who am I to actually have needs or desires or wants in that regard? That there's this sort of weird glory and sacrifice in subjugating yourself. It's like, no, no, no, it's noble for me to hate what I do and still do it.

00:38:33 Speaker_01
It's noble for me to suffer this sort of weird sort of self-flagellation as you whip yourself through whatever it is that you're going through. And in some ways there is, but

00:38:43 Speaker_01
no one's going to give you some award at the end of your life that says he suffered in silence. There's not going to be a banner over your deathbed that goes, congratulations for never making a fuss. I don't think that that exists.

00:38:59 Speaker_01
And so much of the advice that's on the internet at the moment

00:39:04 Speaker_01
has been born out of a identity politics victimhood fragility over diagnosis of normal human discomfort as a pathological mental problem world, so most of the content is going to jaco saying stay hard suck it up but a cup you don't need to be such a soft person,

00:39:24 Speaker_01
But there is a world of people out there who are making themselves suffer too much, who aren't advocating for their own desires, who aren't making their needs known, who don't believe that they should be a priority in their life or in anybody else's, and I think that they're the sort of people that listen to this show

00:39:44 Speaker_01
And that stuff in many ways pushes them further into what they already have too much of. They don't need to do more suffering. They need to get better at making their own needs known to the people around them.

00:39:57 Speaker_02
Yeah, I think it comes down to how I said about believing in yourself. I think a lot of people weren't raised the way to have that, where they need to learn that in their 20s, 30s, 40s, whatever. And that's way harder than growing up thinking that.

00:40:14 Speaker_02
So I'm definitely like very blessed to have that intuitional belief in myself from like day one. And i think for those that may not relate to that how i have that belief it's one of those things that.

00:40:29 Speaker_02
That's where i think you need to realize there's things like the nine to five and there's things like the entrepreneur route and i think it's really important to realize that. It isn't always grass, isn't always grass is greener on the other side.

00:40:43 Speaker_02
I think people need to realize also that there is just as much in some scenarios struggle in, oh, I'm going to do everything on my own. I'm going to be an entrepreneur. You're working 24 hours, brother. Good luck. It's hard. Nine to five. Good luck.

00:40:56 Speaker_02
If I had to go to that, good luck. It's hard. It's hard on both ends of life. It's just a matter of almost like What evil do you want to put your energy into?

00:41:04 Speaker_01
What pain do you want to have to deal with?

00:41:06 Speaker_02
Like they see Goggins and they think, oh, suffer, suffer, suffer. Let's go. Let's go. I'm going to just, I'm going to fucking get through this job. I don't care. And that makes them, maybe they get dopamine off of that.

00:41:14 Speaker_02
But you also could just input that same exact suffering energy into maybe something that you have passion and drive for.

00:41:19 Speaker_02
It's still going to maybe have its moments of difficulty and suck, but at least it's towards something that like your inner soul, it's different feeling of outcome of just internal feeling of your, like your soul's

00:41:32 Speaker_02
dopamine hits, you know what I mean?

00:41:55 Speaker_01
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00:42:34 Speaker_01
That's drinkag1.com slash modernwisdom. What's your advice to people who don't have a supportive surrounding that maybe are in a, you heard of food deserts? It's places around countries where it's very difficult to get hold of high quality food.

00:42:52 Speaker_01
I often think about role model deserts or sort of support deserts, places where someone is trying to do something a little bit different.

00:43:00 Speaker_01
Maybe they're not following the prescribed route that typically people from where they're from are doing and they go, Because you did it twice.

00:43:10 Speaker_01
You first left the normal education, normal teenager life to do the lacrosse thing, and then left the lacrosse life thing to do the next thing.

00:43:20 Speaker_02
So in both situations... Honestly, it's been like five things that I've kind of like said, I'm out. Um, I went, I left that normal teenage life. That's one left Lehigh.

00:43:31 Speaker_02
That's two went to Montclair state university, D three school, very close to home, sort of like a more expensive community college that you can live at and played lacrosse there and played there. Did very well.

00:43:44 Speaker_02
Was like a, had the most goals in the team and stuff like that. So again, people are like, keep doing it, bro. Keep doing it. You're doing amazing.

00:43:49 Speaker_01
Oh my God.

00:43:51 Speaker_02
And I'm like, I'm like, is this what I'm supposed to be doing though? So then that got to a point where. I was like, I went into, I went straight into my coach and was like, Hey, I don't want to do this anymore.

00:44:00 Speaker_02
That was, that was the third time he luckily, like, I appreciate what he did. He was like, I want you to shift your perspective. I don't want you to look at this. I was waiting for the beeping.

00:44:11 Speaker_02
Uh, I don't want you to look at this as, ah, you have to be here. Just go out, hang out with the guys, do your thing, putting pressure on yourself and that lightened it up for a while. It really did.

00:44:22 Speaker_02
And kind of like as almost like an internal anxiety that we all put on ourselves of like, I have to be here. I have to do this. Oh, I got to wake up at 6 a.m. tomorrow. Rather than just being like, you know what? It's happening.

00:44:32 Speaker_02
Let's accept this rather than fight it in that internal fight.

00:44:36 Speaker_02
That internal fight is where anxiety is painful because in your head, you're basically living through it multiple times and you're forcing yourself to feel the anxiety that's happening in real life.

00:44:47 Speaker_02
But if you just take a second, this helps me a lot with anxiety. I take a step back. I go, I have anxiety right now. and I'm feeling it and I allow myself to feel this anxiety and my body almost like releases the tension and I kind of relax into it.

00:45:02 Speaker_02
And yes, there's still anxiety, but it's like, it's like when you're in the ice bath and you're, oh fuck, oh my God, I'm dying. This is, this is killing me. And then you're like, you know what? And you just let it.

00:45:12 Speaker_01
Yeah, it still hurts. There's some days that you get in that.

00:45:14 Speaker_02
You have to just let it, you have to just let the, just accept it, accept the pain.

00:45:18 Speaker_01
Mark Twain says, worrying is like paying a debt that you don't owe. And that's it. It's not just the discomfort of the thing that you're going to have to do. It's the 50 times that you think about that thing in advance of it.

00:45:32 Speaker_01
And then once you finish thinking about it and it happens, you then sort of ruminate about the fact that it, Yeah, I know exactly.

00:45:37 Speaker_02
I also want to say, and I don't think a lot of people know this about me, um, which I'm totally fine being open about, but I, I'm on an antidepressants and I was 15.

00:45:46 Speaker_02
Um, I experienced a ton of anxiety when I was like 15, I had no idea how to handle it. So I, I kind of like acted out in anger because I just didn't know what this feeling was and it was just straight up anxiety.

00:45:58 Speaker_02
And it came a lot from the pressure of sports. And I only scored two goals today. I performed better last week. Ah, what do I do? I just dropped the ball. Everyone's looking at me. The coaches are mad, whatever it might be. And I went on to Zoloft.

00:46:10 Speaker_02
I'm at like 50 milligrams for literally nine years. Pretty crazy.

00:46:14 Speaker_02
The one time I came off and the reason I'm bringing this up because I want to almost normalize like, hey, if you're on this stuff, like I used to feel ashamed that I was on it and not tell anybody, like maybe my two best friends knew for like five years and no one else knew.

00:46:26 Speaker_02
But I went on it from 15 to 18 when I went to Lehigh. It was the only time I ever came off.

00:46:34 Speaker_01
the time you made the most important decision in your life.

00:46:36 Speaker_02
The time I made the most important decision in my life and also felt the most pain in my life. Did I feel more pain because I was off? I have no idea. 50 milligrams is not a lot. It's small. But I then went back on, you know, felt regulated. Does it work?

00:46:49 Speaker_02
I have no, I honestly have no idea. I can't really tell you.

00:46:51 Speaker_01
Because you've not been you without being on it. I've never not been on it. Would you ever be interested in titrating down or dropping off it? Or is this gonna be you for the rest of your life?

00:47:02 Speaker_02
It's a good question. I've had these conversations. One thing that I'm afraid of is altering my mind from where it's at right now. I think eventually, I think it comes from a lot of internal work and daily practices to be able to shift off of it.

00:47:16 Speaker_02
Like, you know, I get on breath work. I don't do that now. I gotta maybe go in the sauna and the ice bath. I don't know, little things like that that I need to take into account if I'm coming off of it. The only thing I fear

00:47:29 Speaker_02
And I could be like just like a trauma thing is in 2018 just being that depressed and having back to that. I think that me stopping registers in my brain as that's going to happen again. It might not. You know, it probably doesn't.

00:47:43 Speaker_01
But in my head, I'm scared. It's a high-risk strategy, man.

00:47:45 Speaker_01
I mean, I have no idea what long-term, decades-long SSRI usage is, but you've got fiancé, you've got business, you seem like you have a lot of energy, so a lot of the things that seem to come along for the ride with SSRIs, like libido dipping, energy dipping, desire to drive and train and stuff like that... Yeah.

00:48:05 Speaker_01
I don't have that, luckily.

00:48:06 Speaker_02
Well, yeah, it's... Or maybe imagine if I was out without it, I'd be like,

00:48:10 Speaker_01
Yeah, having sex with everyone. Everybody watch out. Keep it awake, keep it awake. I had Andrew Wilkinson on the show. He's a billionaire. He owned tiny.com. He's got a bunch of other businesses. And he was singing the praises of SSRIs as well.

00:48:22 Speaker_01
And this is another one of those conversations where The midwit headline is, SSRIs are overprescribed for people that don't need them, therefore all SSRIs are bullshit and everyone that's on them is a wimp. Right.

00:48:37 Speaker_01
The second order smarter person thinking is, there probably is overprescription and maybe SSRIs do only move the needle a little bit, especially for many cohorts, but

00:48:48 Speaker_01
some drugs, some people are hyper-responders to certain drugs, and it seems like, for you, it hasn't come with a whole bunch of side effects, and it does seem to work well. Andrew Wilkinson said the same. He tried everything.

00:48:58 Speaker_01
He tried keto, he tried carnivore, he tried breathwork, he'd done all of the different things, and then he tried SSRIs, and it seemed to work.

00:49:06 Speaker_01
So I'm really keen to just get people out of this reflective, midwit thinking, which is, oh, pussy, SSRIs, and go, Okay, is it somehow more noble for someone to suffer and be miserable as opposed to take this? It's the same thing with Ozempic.

00:49:27 Speaker_01
I think lots of people are going to come around eventually when the conceptual inertia of taking a pill to lose weight is cheating. Okay, does that mean that the caffeine in your drink is cheating? Because that's augmenting the way that you operate.

00:49:41 Speaker_01
Does it mean that a diabetic that can't produce insulin that needs to take a shot, are they cheating to stay alive? They're pussies. Yeah, pussy. Just like suck it up, pussy.

00:49:51 Speaker_01
So I really, and I'm fortunate with the audience I have that they're thoughtful people, but Yeah, avoiding that midwit thinking is something that's super important.

00:49:59 Speaker_01
And it's really cool the SSRI effectiveness for you that seems to have you functioning pretty normally.

00:50:07 Speaker_02
People, I've heard on the mog cast, it's like Sush and James English years ago, they were like, I think Jesse's brain automatically produces Adderall in his head. And I was like, that makes a lot of sense. I don't do any drugs like whatsoever.

00:50:21 Speaker_02
I drink maybe one drink a month. And it's like, The way I'm operated is almost like I am on these performance enhancing drugs, I feel like, but just naturally something's in my body and drive and passion.

00:50:35 Speaker_02
So luckily the SSRIs haven't affected me in any negative way. Maybe that's why I'm like able to work so much.

00:50:40 Speaker_01
I don't know. I'm happy. It seems like it's functioning pretty well. That's why I'm so happy, guys.

00:50:44 Speaker_01
It's also to think about what you said that if you were to come off them, you would have to go through all of these routines maybe to ensure that mental health was in a good place. So last six to eight months for me has been rough.

00:50:58 Speaker_01
I've been detoxing from mold in a house that I was living in, which for anybody that's going through it, it's brutal. I still haven't sort of fully talked about it on the show yet, but it's been awful. It's so hard.

00:51:10 Speaker_01
And the way that I described it to my therapist was, it feels like the gravity of your mood is so much heavier.

00:51:17 Speaker_01
So, in order for me to be in a good mood, or for my brain to be functioning well, I have to have just got out of a cold plunge after doing a sauna, listening to my favorite music, on my way to see my friend, to eat my favorite food while the sun's shining.

00:51:32 Speaker_01
It doesn't just you don't just stumble upon a good mood and you don't just stumble upon a good sort of a mind space in terms of energy i'm always forgetting things my mood is.

00:51:41 Speaker_01
Always struggling and it feels like swimming upstream and that's kind of the same thing you're talking about that so when it comes to enhancements in different ways i was talking to doctor mike and crystal his wife the other day.

00:51:53 Speaker_01
And she was saying there's even this new class of SSRIs now that they've dialed in the formulation more effectively. It works on a different pathway. There's even fewer side effects. It's basically free happiness. And I understand because of

00:52:09 Speaker_01
Up until now, most of pharmacology hasn't come along. Every time that you try and give someone a free lunch, there is some unseen cancer down the road.

00:52:18 Speaker_01
There is some side effect, cholesterol's through the roof and people are dying because of blood clots, whatever it might be. There are all of those.

00:52:25 Speaker_01
apart from when you get to the stage where you can fully master these things, that's like kind of saying previously, well, you know, we've said that surgeries are going to work for all of this time, but each time that we do it, people keep on getting infected.

00:52:36 Speaker_01
It's like, yeah, that's because you didn't have an understanding of the germ theory of disease. But then as understandings continue to develop, I think we should be cautious about using lessons from the past to sort of inform right now, at least

00:52:51 Speaker_01
super judgmentally. It's like, let's be open to this, especially given, it's like saying, how can you have a computer that talks to you? You go, well, I don't know. LLMs seem to be doing a pretty good job.

00:53:00 Speaker_01
So the same thing might happen in pharmacology as well. But yeah, the idea of having to work hard for a good mood is something that I've been intimately familiar with over the last few months. So I feel you.

00:53:10 Speaker_02
It's a fun fact. I actually forgot to take mine last night. So today I was like withdrawing. That's one of the reasons that I also like coming off sucks. It's that short acting? What do you mean?

00:53:20 Speaker_01
SSRIs, well you didn't take it last night and today you feel it?

00:53:24 Speaker_02
About an hour and a half ago, I was like, why am I so fucking dizzy? And then I looked at my fiance and I was like, I didn't take my fucking pill last night. So I'll turn a corner and my brain was like, ugh. Wow. So it's happening.

00:53:35 Speaker_02
It's not delayed by like it's like 36 hours. I got hit and I was like, whoa.

00:53:39 Speaker_01
OK, but it's not as if you build up some passive reservoir of this. I guess not. So it's happening pretty quick. That's interesting.

00:53:47 Speaker_02
I've always had that. Like if I miss it one day, I get I get dizzy.

00:53:51 Speaker_01
Getting on to some of the stuff that you've done in fitness. We talked about this earlier on. Hybrid training running is super popular at the moment. You run every day for a month. Yep. What did that do to you?

00:54:05 Speaker_02
It gave me a lot of respect for runners, especially hybrid runners. I don't say all runners, any new challenger workout is tough, but doing it every day, it was like,

00:54:16 Speaker_02
new and fun and you're sore in the beginning and it's really hard but i feel like running is a different sort of reward where i see a very quick result where i run three miles on day one horrible time i'm dying i'm cramping i feel terrible i'm like bro i'm running a marathon in 30 days how is this gonna happen by day seven i'm like i can run three miles

00:54:38 Speaker_02
Then when you go to six, you know, it's hard again. You got to taper up. I did a very rapid prep. No one really does this. Nick Bear sort of coached me. He's like, hey, this is the best case scenario. You're going to run this many miles each day.

00:54:48 Speaker_02
Good luck. No one should do this.

00:54:50 Speaker_01
So you started from not being a runner and within 30 days did what? Full marathon. Sub four, baby.

00:54:59 Speaker_02
How did that feel? The marathon? Excruciating. 15. And I was like, bro, my legs like are just like not cooperating. Now, mile 16, I entered the wall, which they call it. It's like a wall.

00:55:32 Speaker_02
The wall means the wall and running is where you hit this block period of time. Many miles, one mile could be 10. Doesn't everyone's different. And it's the biggest hurdle that you have to get over. It's the same. You're running at the same pace.

00:55:44 Speaker_02
There's no difference. Nothing has changed. It's just your body has And your body and mind has created this wall that you have to literally get through. And for me, it was mile 16 to 24.

00:55:56 Speaker_02
For many people, everyone's like, dude, when you hit mile 20, you're gonna hit a wall.

00:56:01 Speaker_00
You'll get through it. You'll get through it.

00:56:03 Speaker_02
20, 20, you'll hit it. 20, you'll hit it. Bro, 16. And it kept getting drastically worse and worse. And I was like, I have to be leaving the wall soon. I have to be leaving the wall soon. Mile 22. Why am I still on the wall? What is happening?

00:56:16 Speaker_02
Am I gonna die? The longest wall in history. And it's probably because I had a very rapid training for it. And at this point, my hip flexors feel like they're gonna tear off the bone. And I'm very underprepared. 30 days is nowhere near enough.

00:56:29 Speaker_02
No one should ever do that. Unless you're stupid making a YouTube video. Uh, we get to mile 24. I meet an angel of a man. I think his name was Matt. I believe it was Matt. It was like literally like an angel that someone just put right there.

00:56:42 Speaker_02
And I was like, Hey, Hey you. And he's like, Hey, Oh, you're that YouTube guy. He's like, I've seen you. And I was, I was like, Oh, can I, can I run with you please? Cause we're running, we're through the woods also.

00:56:53 Speaker_02
So it's kind of like a difficult, uh, marathon. They're all hard. And I catch up with him and I look at him, I go, do not slow down. Don't slow down. I'm going to keep up with you.

00:57:03 Speaker_02
And then we start getting this pace and I'm just like, I wanna cry already. It's happening, but I stick with him. And then he starts slowing down and then I pick him up and I'm like, come on, bro, come on.

00:57:13 Speaker_02
And then a third dude joins us and we're all dying together. And it's like, we've never met each other in our lives. We're all like, you got this bro, what's your name? Nice to meet you. And we're dying. And we finally make it.

00:57:25 Speaker_02
And honestly, if I didn't meet Matt at mile 24-ish, I genuinely, I kept like walking, running, walking, running the last few miles before I met him. And I was like, dude, if I have to walk this, like I have failed so miserable.

00:57:40 Speaker_02
I'm so mad at myself because I know I can, I can handle the pain. And I kept reminding myself, this is not the hardest thing you've done.

00:57:48 Speaker_02
The hardest thing I've done, by the way, when I finished the marathon, my fiance was at the end, euphoric feeling, gave her a hug, saw my mom, had my team there, laid on the ground, couldn't get up, couldn't train hamstrings for like six weeks.

00:57:59 Speaker_01
I was gonna say, what were the next few days like?

00:58:01 Speaker_02
Oh my god, the pain was so bad. I was limping for multiple days.

00:58:07 Speaker_02
like could barely lift my leg and for about six weeks my the tendon behind your knee there's like those two like stringy tendons uh i could not do a hamstring curl for the life of me i could do like squats and stuff but i could not curl anything like not even like five pounds felt like i probably tore something and then my hip i could not raise my right leg and then for a while there's a lot of crunching going on i was like this was a bad idea

00:58:31 Speaker_02
And video did great, 3.3 million views probably and growing.

00:58:36 Speaker_02
My favorite part about that video was the storytelling and ending at the end was so like pure and it really moved people and got people so like the comments on that video was different than anything else.

00:58:49 Speaker_01
Did you see Casey Neistat's video about his marathon?

00:58:52 Speaker_02
Which the sub three, yes. I saw how it took him like years.

00:58:56 Speaker_01
Decades, I think.

00:58:57 Speaker_02
Decades. I ran mine 353. And I was super happy with that. I was like, what the hell did I just do? I'm not gonna lie. I'm an athlete. I play dealing lacrosse. I was very good at sports and stuff.

00:59:10 Speaker_02
Like being athletic isn't hard for me, but running a marathon is wildly different. Athletic doesn't really matter there. It's just a matter of like willpower. Conditioning.

00:59:22 Speaker_01
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01:00:15 Speaker_01
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01:00:21 Speaker_02
But let me tell you about the hardest thing that I've done. Oh God, I have trauma from this one. You can thank a guy named Brian Johnson, AKA Liver King. Okay, this guy, psychopath. Love him, great guy to be around. Extremely successful businessman.

01:00:37 Speaker_02
Very motivating. Uh, he does this thing called the barbarian. You have 15 pound on ankle weights on each leg, 15 pound, uh, or 70 pound backpack, 150, 140 pounds sled and holding 70 pound kettlebells.

01:00:56 Speaker_02
And it's 112 degrees outside in Texas and it's August or July or something. And you have to go through the sand. So like sand gives resistance as you pull, it's digging itself into the ground. So it's torturous.

01:01:06 Speaker_02
So it's like, if you had to do the math, it's like 315 pounds you're carrying. So like, and you have to go a mile. I've done it once with him. The first time I met him, uh, and we did it on flat gravel. I did it in an hour in 20 something minutes.

01:01:19 Speaker_02
I beat him by an hour. I was like, what the hell just happened, bro? That was like, okay, that was one of the, one of the hardest things I've done. Not the hardest. Then I do the second challenge a year later, he invites me back.

01:01:30 Speaker_02
He's like, I want you to do the barbarian crucible. I'm like, this sounds terrible, but I'm in, I'm all for stupid things that I'm gonna have to put myself through. That's why I literally have like scars from this.

01:01:40 Speaker_02
And we do this about quarter mile in, I was like already having a first heat stroke. And I was like, what is, I was like, bro, this is next level. Cause it's through sand, it's through dirt, it's through- It's the same thing.

01:01:53 Speaker_02
Same exact thing, same mile. Just the course is 10 times harder. And last time he did it, it was a competition. So you kind of have that like, let me chase you feeling. This time he's just chilling. He's smoking a cigar, drinking his whiskey.

01:02:06 Speaker_02
calling the walkie talkie guy next to me, talking shit. And I'm like, I told him, I said, I will finish this. And this goes back to my like, almost stupid belief in myself to where I do things that hurt myself because I'm like, I'm not going to fail.

01:02:18 Speaker_02
I'm not going to stop. So I psychotically do this for like, let's say three quarters of the mile. And I get to the sand. It's like first half, just gravel and dirt and stuff hard, but not the worst sand at like last 0.4 miles.

01:02:34 Speaker_02
And I, uh, I get to this point where I am now full on having a heat stroke. I'm freezing. It's 112 degrees outside. It makes no sense. I've sweat all water out. Now I'm covered in white because like my, uh, like electrolytes are just on me and I'm like,

01:02:50 Speaker_02
I'm like, I'm dying. I look at their producers and stuff. I'm like, bro, I'm done.

01:02:53 Speaker_01
Were you allowed water?

01:02:54 Speaker_02
I was allowed to drink water. They were pouring a ton of water on me, but like nothing was working. And I look at their producer and I'm like, I'm done. I'm going to, they said, if you unclip, you're done.

01:03:01 Speaker_02
I'm about to unclip and they're like, don't do it. And I'm like, I'm stupid. I'm good at being told what to do, like, and still doing it. And I'm like, Okay, you said don't do it. I'm not going to do it. I'm going to keep going. I go, I go.

01:03:13 Speaker_02
Next heat stroke on the ground, laying there for 30 minutes. I'm like, my soul has left my body. I know I don't have sweat left in my body. I'm covered. I lick my lips. It's salty. Like I needed some of this stuff. Great plug.

01:03:28 Speaker_02
But I get to a point where I'm like, I'm like, dude, I have 0.15 left of a mile. Like I have to just finish this. Same thing in the marathon. Like if I don't, I'm just gonna be pissed. Once I feel better, I'm gonna be pissed.

01:03:40 Speaker_02
And I somehow slug my way to the end, five steps drop, five steps drop, five steps drop. I'm like dead in the face. I get there, I cross the finish line, I just collapse on the ground. And he's like, Yeah. There you go, brother.

01:03:57 Speaker_02
And he's like, yeah, yeah, boy. He says that. So he's like, uh, he's like, let it the fuck. He has all these sayings. They're just psychotic. And I'm laying there. And safe to say it took me four hours, four hours to go a mile.

01:04:11 Speaker_02
And that was the most painful thing I've ever done in my life. So when I did the marathon, I just kept thinking about that. And I was like, that was four hours of way more pain. This is four hours of a different pain.

01:04:20 Speaker_02
My legs have never had so much lactic acid in my body, but my upper body is perfectly fine. My mind can push through this. But with liver king, it's like your arms are tired. Your legs are tired.

01:04:29 Speaker_02
Your soul, you can't even feel your soul because you're so dehydrated.

01:04:34 Speaker_01
What have you learned about resilience to physical discomfort from the challenges and things that you've done?

01:04:40 Speaker_02
I've learned that you can push your body so much farther than you'd ever think. Something that I learned at Lehigh, we had a Navy SEAL course come to us And so I hated everything about Lehigh school. The guys were cool.

01:04:53 Speaker_02
The coaches were always nice to me, but like the program didn't want to do it. All that stuff sucked. When they brought in Navy SEALs and made us stay up 50 hours, favorite thing. I was depressed at the time. Fucking loved it.

01:05:03 Speaker_02
Way better than whatever the hell we were doing before. So it was like this weird, everyone else hated it. And I was like, I don't know why. That was the best part of my month. And we do this cr- aw dude I'm like remembering this shit, it's crazy.

01:05:15 Speaker_02
Okay, I'm like 18, we're- I'm like, I'm like 180 pounds right now, I was probably almost 200, just meat stick, bro. Fucking 4,500 calories a day. And they make us do perfect jumping jacks, perfect sit-ups, perfect push-ups.

01:05:29 Speaker_02
One person messes up, everyone is required to call that one person out, basically make them feel like shit. And then everyone runs because of it. We do that for four hours straight. They say, go home, get one hour of sleep.

01:05:38 Speaker_02
We go home, we fucking lay down, we get right back up. we're in a pool at three a.m.

01:05:42 Speaker_02
they say put your sweatsuits on full crew neck full sweatpants these sweatpants like double xl that we're wearing and like jump in the pool and i'm like what the fuck and they're like if you can't swim go to the shallow end like dead ass they said this to us and i was like someone gonna die we go in and they're like okay we're gonna do

01:05:59 Speaker_02
The push-ups, the sit-ups, the everything on the outside of the pool. We're soaking wet. We're doing them. We're calling out people for not doing it right. And you're held accountable if you don't call.

01:06:06 Speaker_02
If they see you see someone and say, and you don't go, hey, Johnny over here didn't do his push-up right. Now you're fucked. Now you get called out. So it's everybody's calling out each other and just saying like, you suck. You're horrible.

01:06:17 Speaker_02
Very traumatizing for some people. You just see the faces on these people where I'm going to die. And then we go in the pool and we're like, okay.

01:06:24 Speaker_02
Now we're going to do basically like a deep end simulation thing where you have to take off your sweatshirt. You have to switch with somebody and then put it on. It's some Navy SEAL training.

01:06:35 Speaker_02
I don't know the name of it, but wild experience that you tread, you're treading and you're in like picture like so much resistance on your legs and you're like 40 pounds, 20 pounds heavier with this like weighted clothes on you.

01:06:48 Speaker_02
you're trying to swim and everyone's like everyone you're trying to like hey you got this you got this you're talking each other up and they're like all right everyone take off your sweatshirt and you have to go on a ready ready attack call so like everyone's on the exact same page and you take it off and you're treading you're treading at one arm you have to hold it up in one arm until everybody is ready

01:07:05 Speaker_02
You know, and it takes two minutes at least to get these things off. It's like stuck to you. Kids don't know what they're doing. Some kids literally are being held up by other people. I shouldn't say kids. We're like adults at this time.

01:07:14 Speaker_02
And we're treading, we're treading. And then it's like ready, ready, attack, switch with somebody. You switch. Now ready, ready, attack, put it on. So think of like a wet rag, like stuck together. And you're like trying to like

01:07:23 Speaker_02
find the opening and you're treading still for like, we're at like minute eight of treading. And then we put it on and we're like all just dying. Some kids are near drowning, like genuinely just two people holding their arms up.

01:07:35 Speaker_02
And they're like, their head is barely above the water. And if they don't complete it, restart. We did like four rounds of this thing. And they would, they'd look at the team captain and go, how quick can you do it?

01:07:44 Speaker_02
And they wanted to push the hell out of us. And the team captain says something like two minutes. Okay, do it again. They look at him again. You didn't, you didn't 150. How quick can you do it? They're like, all right, 130. You did 125.

01:07:57 Speaker_02
How quick are you doing? All right, 120. We do it, we get all the way down to like 115, 120. And we're all, we've been training water for like 40 fricking minutes.

01:08:05 Speaker_02
Cause in between, maybe you get like a quick put the shoulder on something, but you're back. Crazy experience. And that is pre YouTube challenge. So like doing that definitely showed me like, You're capable of so much.

01:08:21 Speaker_02
Those seals that day were like, listen, when you think you're done, when you think you're done, not just like, oh, I'm tired, I'm done. When you think you're truly done, you have 40% left in the tank.

01:08:31 Speaker_02
And you need to tell yourself that every single time when you're on the field, when you think you're done, 40% left, keep pushing. And I was like, damn, I'm gonna live by that.

01:08:40 Speaker_02
And like, obviously I'm not a Navy SEAL by any means or anything, but like that stuck with me. And when I get in those moments, I think there's still 40, like that still sticks with me, 40% left.

01:08:48 Speaker_02
When I'm on my marathon and I'm at mile 24, still 40% left sadly.

01:08:52 Speaker_01
Yeah, I wonder again, how many people would benefit from really formative experiences like that? You know, it's such an opportunity for you to do it as a college athlete, but most people get out of that.

01:09:05 Speaker_01
You know, I hear about these Alpha bootcamp things that are happening. I know the owners. And there's a bunch of them. Bedros has been on the show, Julian, if you know him. And it's kind of easy to mock online. because the storyline tells you too much.

01:09:24 Speaker_01
It's just way too easy of a headline where someone says, man pays $10,000 to have dude with beard and full sleeve shout at him while he doesn't sleep. It's a funny headline.

01:09:36 Speaker_01
But when you actually look at what those kinds of formative experiences maybe teach you, and the fact that you got to learn that at 18,

01:09:44 Speaker_02
Yeah.

01:09:45 Speaker_01
The reason that it's a bit, that people think it's a bit cringe, and it might be cringe, I'm not too sure. The reason that people think it's a bit cringe is, why are you at 45 needing this? And you go, well, what if you've never had it before?

01:09:58 Speaker_00
Exactly.

01:09:58 Speaker_01
What if you've never pushed yourself to that place before? Normal person, at what point in your life Are you going beyond that 40% line that you think is your normal one?

01:10:09 Speaker_01
Even someone that runs a marathon, if they're preparing for six months or a full year for it, it should be a relatively sure thing, unless you've got some sort of weird pathology and your heart blows up halfway.

01:10:21 Speaker_01
Difficult and impressive, but relatively... And then you go, okay, what about an Iron Man? Well, okay, even with that, the point is that you're training to be able to do the thing. It would be almost like... I see what you're saying.

01:10:36 Speaker_02
Doing something that you're almost not prepared for, to torture yourself so much that you will gain a much more valuable lesson than if you prepared for it.

01:10:43 Speaker_01
Correct.

01:10:43 Speaker_02
Yeah, of course. Which is crazy. Yes. And going through that, I'm very great.

01:10:47 Speaker_02
This is where the moments where I then look back at my dad setting me up in these situations where I'm like, thank you so much for even though it was rocky at times, thank you so much for making me go do this because there's a reason I'm in the position I am.

01:11:01 Speaker_02
There's a reason I can handle so much and there's a reason that I can push myself so much. And it all falls back to being in the rain, the hail, the snow, him throwing the ball a million times, and I'm like, why are we doing this?

01:11:11 Speaker_02
It all makes sense now. And the way Liver King is, it's why I respect him so much. And yes, he has had his scandals, but as a man, and you could argue this because he lied, whatever.

01:11:21 Speaker_02
As a man that I know, as he's like a friend of mine, I see his sons and then I see the way he is with them and how it was similar to my father. and the way that he pushes them and the way that my dad pushed me.

01:11:33 Speaker_02
And I look at, I looked, I told them and I said, I said, I know, and it might not make sense now what your dad is doing and how you got to do the barbarian. You got to, you know, be strict with your diet or whatever.

01:11:42 Speaker_02
I'm like, it's going to make, give it 10 years. You're going to thank him. And I, and I promise, I promise they will. I won't say I promise, but 99% there might be 1% chance that they will.

01:11:54 Speaker_02
And that's like one of those things where doing hard things is so necessary. And I think even if you're 45, I mean, what age is born? Buffett become a billionaire or a millionaire. It wasn't like 40 or 50 years. It took a long time.

01:12:08 Speaker_02
Oh, let's make fun of his. fricking sell for, why weren't you a millionaire younger, bro? Like, no, he's a billionaire now. Like, it doesn't matter what time you start, what age you start.

01:12:17 Speaker_02
I think the fact is that not everyone has the opportunity to go to a D1 lacrosse program on a scholarship and have a dad push them and care for them that much that he wants to put him in that scenario where you end up going do those things and learn those lessons at 18.

01:12:28 Speaker_02
It's unrealistic.

01:12:30 Speaker_01
Some people do have to learn lessons in adulthood that they should have learned in childhood. We all do.

01:12:35 Speaker_02
There's a million lessons to learn.

01:12:36 Speaker_01
And it's kind of, it is very strange in a world where we want people to be more resilient, there is an odd amount of sort of teasing and pity and mocking for people that take stuff seriously when they get into later life.

01:12:50 Speaker_01
And you go, okay, it's not far off the developmental equivalent of mocking a fat person going to the gym. You go, the exact thing that they need is the thing that they're trying to do.

01:13:03 Speaker_01
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01:13:14 Speaker_01
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01:14:06 Speaker_01
Speaking of fat person going to the gym, you competed recently. You got on stage.

01:14:11 Speaker_02
You called me a fat person before? I'm kidding.

01:14:13 Speaker_01
You're leaner. I was less lean. True. You competed. Yes. What was that process like? What's it feel like to be that lean? Terrible.

01:14:23 Speaker_02
So I'll explain. Once again, this is sort of a scenario where it's I tend to do things in a much shorter period of time than you're supposed to.

01:14:32 Speaker_02
One, because it's like a new challenge that I think is different than everyone else's challenge that maybe I just am drawn to. But then secondly, I think it's

01:14:41 Speaker_02
It's more interesting for videos and real life and more realistic for me I can't devote a year to train I could like I realistically I got other three other 90-day there are three other 30-day videos I want to make this year so I can't devote a year to training for a marathon I only got 30 days and then when that's done I got the next 30-day challenge at waking up at 5 a.m.

01:15:00 Speaker_02
And you can't do multiple you can't do multiple at once unless you wanted to be shit, so Restate the question sorry

01:15:07 Speaker_01
What does it feel like to be that lean? What does it feel like to be that lean? So in the process of losing that much fat in such a short space of time.

01:15:12 Speaker_02
So you look at like a bodybuilding prep, it's 16 weeks. I did mine in let's say eight. I'm always pretty lean. I never really bulk past like 15% body fat. The first week or two is, you know, like you're like, all right, it's tough.

01:15:25 Speaker_02
You're doing your cardio, whatever. Maybe you're tired. But the last like three weeks,

01:15:30 Speaker_02
um were so so tiring and like emotionally stealing in a way where i literally felt nothing like i was a corpse you could look at me in the eyes and you could be like you're thinking nothing right now you have no emotion and everyone experiences prep different some people look at in a very beautiful way and they love seeing the changes in their body for me

01:15:56 Speaker_02
It was tough seeing the changes, like dated looking back at photos. Damn, I was shredded. But then in the moment, it's very odd. Cause you look at yourself and you pinch the side of your body. And I'm like, I'm not even that lean.

01:16:08 Speaker_02
I'm so skinny right now. Like I don't look like sea bum. I look, I look stupid. I'm fat bum. Yeah. I'm posing and my legs are, my legs aren't even touching. They're so skinny.

01:16:19 Speaker_02
You know, it's like you start really picking at all these negative things in your head. And if I wasn't making content around it, I think that definitely helped keep my mind off that sort of,

01:16:31 Speaker_02
dysmorphic thought and it was like, okay, we have a mission here. We're making awesome videos at the same time. I can focus on that more, but it definitely, it took a huge toll on my relationship.

01:16:42 Speaker_02
I literally like every single emotion I just didn't have, like I couldn't feel happy.

01:16:47 Speaker_01
I couldn't feel sad.

01:16:49 Speaker_02
Honestly, I don't really deal with too much hunger, which is like a gift. It's just lack of energy. I feel like lethargic of I feel like I know my blood sugar is low. What is a hypoglycemic? I feel very hypoglycemic all the time.

01:17:02 Speaker_02
And I was like, this is just brutal. Just get to the end date. The show is a very fun experience. It's very rewarding. It's awesome being on stage. You know, yelling most muscular posing against people. Awesome experience.

01:17:14 Speaker_02
Highly recommend everybody do it maybe once or at least

01:17:19 Speaker_02
I think everybody should get pretty lean once to experience what it's like to one look at your best and to really see the different type of hard work it takes to get to the next level of body conditioning because my level and then there's even so much farther that Seabum goes and every other competitor out there.

01:17:35 Speaker_02
I just named him because I feel like what do you think you got down to? Greg Doucette said 6%. So even let's say six and a half to be friendly. Pretty lean. Pretty lean.

01:17:47 Speaker_02
And as a natural, my hormones were tanked, like 200 nanograms test, 200 free, like, oh my God, dude. Thankfully, still works. Come back. Still works, don't worry. But the feeling of 200 tests is absolutely horrible.

01:18:02 Speaker_02
And that's like one reason why I just like don't have a desire to compete anymore slash for a very long time. What was the hardest part of it? I feel like accepting, you know what it is?

01:18:16 Speaker_02
The hardest part is that same anxiety fight where these, you're like, I'm so uncomfortable and your body wants to tense internally and fight this uncomfortability feeling rather than- Always sympathetically activated.

01:18:27 Speaker_02
Yeah, rather than just like, I've talked to Chris about this recently and he was like, you have to just know that this is your choice. You can stop if you want. And it almost, I feel like he has that like, where he can turn that,

01:18:37 Speaker_02
that internal battle against it. And a lot of other successful bodybuilders have that ability. I haven't learned it yet.

01:18:43 Speaker_01
It's the same as you were saying, I've got to get up at six in the morning. I've got to get up at six in the morning as opposed to, I'm just, I'm just going to get up. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's so funny, man. I think it's, it's cool to see, uh,

01:18:58 Speaker_01
You're like an elite normal. You know what I mean? You're kind of a representation for nobody looks and goes, C-bum.

01:19:06 Speaker_01
Genetic freak, once in a generation bodybuilder with a fantastic background and the perfect nutrition and a little bit of hormonal help and all the rest of it.

01:19:16 Speaker_01
So when I ask him, he's on the show this week, when I speak to him about what prep feels like, what theory of mind have I got to know what it's like to be Chris Bumstead, the bodybuilder? None. But I feel like you're just elite normal.

01:19:31 Speaker_01
That's a great way to put it.

01:19:34 Speaker_02
We got to take my team's behind there We got to take notes and that's gonna help that's gonna help like ideas the best of the normies because if you think about it It's like that's like I did an elite normal thing the marathon elite normal thing wake up at 5 a.m.

01:19:45 Speaker_02
For 30 days It's not really that much elite. That's more normal. Yeah, um cold plunge every day.

01:19:49 Speaker_01
That's just cold having a kid.

01:19:50 Speaker_02
Yeah or we had a puppy in the same thing. But yeah, I think another experience that really stands out to me, this is kind of tangent, but an experience that I want to talk about that truly changed my life was with Wim Hof.

01:20:05 Speaker_02
And that was, oh my God, that was such a magical experience doing that in person. Cause we know what the Wim Hof method does. I'm sure, have you ever done the breathing? Yeah, of course.

01:20:17 Speaker_02
So we know how good that breathwork feels, the ice bath, you get endorphins, but imagine doing it with a dude that's like- The guy. The creator of it almost, you know what I mean? And he's the kindest person, really, I felt so safe with him.

01:20:30 Speaker_02
And I come in, first thing we do, he's like, let's- Where's this, Finland? Netherlands, Netherlands. They're all the same. I'm like, shh, where have I been?

01:20:38 Speaker_01
That whole area, I shouldn't say that, there's loads of people that listen in Finland, but did he do that thing where you have to penguin dive off the,

01:20:45 Speaker_02
He, he did it. I didn't. I was like, that's a little extreme. That water is gotta be like 31.9 degrees Fahrenheit. Um, but yeah, we, first thing he does dive in the cold water. I'm like, Oh my God. And I'm like, I'm a little familiar.

01:20:59 Speaker_02
I've been taking cold showers to prepare for this video. And I'm like, all right, we're in it. Let's go. And then we do, we do some abs, we do some breath work. And when I want to talk about the breath work, because that was the most like,

01:21:11 Speaker_02
spiritual awakening moment I've ever had in my life. He does four, three, four rounds of breath work, one minute, one and a half, two, two and a half, three. And you hold your breath for those lengths of period, the time period that I just mentioned.

01:21:24 Speaker_02
And we get to the second to last round and I'm at two, two and a half. I'm feeling so safe with him. And I'm like, you know, I'm just gonna like not fight it. And you could have that anxiety about this, but I'm here, let's make it happen.

01:21:37 Speaker_02
Hold my breath, two and a half minutes go by. that man on the dot my sister was there timing uh the the two and a half on the dot he goes and time and my sister's like Like she didn't even say anything. It was 229.9.

01:21:52 Speaker_02
And it was like, this dude, another level. And then we do the three minute and I hold my breath for three minutes straight. It feels like 30 seconds. It flies by. I open my eyes and I have just this insane euphoric feeling.

01:22:06 Speaker_02
I don't know if I was dying and maybe that's what you're supposed to feel when you die. I had this insane euphoric feeling. I open my eyes, I see my sister, I have my cameraman, I have Wim and like this feeling of just,

01:22:18 Speaker_02
purity of love and I'm just like gratitude and nothing else mattered. It was like it was almost like I was like born into this exact moment and I knew nothing about the universe and it was just how you're supposed to feel.

01:22:30 Speaker_02
It was crazy and that was a very life-changing moment. I've done the breathing a few times since then. I probably need to get back into it but that and the ice bath like The man's onto something.

01:22:41 Speaker_02
And I don't know what happened inside my brain, but that was the most content and like happy feeling, like a different type of happy. It was just, I had to share that. It was a crazy experience.

01:22:52 Speaker_01
It really does clear your mind in a crazy way. If you do some forced breath work, Wim Hof breathing, whatever you want to call it. The last time, have you ever done it and passed out?

01:23:07 Speaker_02
No, I've seen people.

01:23:08 Speaker_01
Okay, so I've pushed it a little bit hard in a couple of breathwork classes in Austin and you sort of come back around and you've got whoever the facilitator is with that hand on your chest sort of chilling you out and they do something with your neck, maybe it's to do with your nerve here or the blood flow here, I'm not really too sure, but I always see the same fucking cat.

01:23:28 Speaker_01
Every time I do it, this fucking cat pops up. It's just this face looking at me. What? I don't know what it is.

01:23:33 Speaker_02
That's the DMT being released in your brain, bro.

01:23:36 Speaker_01
Maybe it is. Are you ever going to pivot into psychedelic bro era? I did ayahuasca every day. I haven't. Oh, that's Connor Murphy right there. Yeah, exactly. Drinking semen.

01:23:50 Speaker_02
I haven't tried that yet. So psychedelics, I have friends that have done it. I have people that are close to my life that have done it and no judgment whatsoever. Cool, do whatever you want. For me,

01:24:05 Speaker_02
I feel that I almost have a little bit of an enlightened mindset as is that I feel like I've awakened from reaching a point of peace when I left Lehigh in 2018 when I was 18 years old and I quit. I had this like super

01:24:24 Speaker_02
spiritual awakening moment where I could not describe it, but I could like sense your energy in like the most pure way. I'm like, you are full.

01:24:33 Speaker_02
Like, I don't, I couldn't just, I don't know what language I needed to speak it, but I'm like, you're full, you're half, you're like, I sounded, I thought I was fucking crazy, dude. I probably was.

01:24:41 Speaker_02
And I feel like that sort of opened my mind and like, well, maybe the mind is capable of just naturally experiencing all these crazy phenomenon things.

01:24:49 Speaker_02
And I feel like I also have this undoubtedly belief in myself that maybe a psychedelic would open up for somebody else and like gratitude, like they'd open up. And I feel like I have a good base of that. And I don't want to fuck with it.

01:25:03 Speaker_02
So that's like my mindset of the same of the SSRIs. Exactly. It's like my mind, I'm happy. I love my life. Like beautiful fiancee, family's healthy. Got a dog at a house. Like my life is awesome. I truly am grateful. My fans are amazing.

01:25:18 Speaker_02
They support me, all that stuff. So it's like one of those things where it's like, if I do this, there's a chance that it goes, there's always, you hear the horror stories of it going South. And I'm like, why would I mess this up? Everything's good.

01:25:31 Speaker_02
If I find a need where I need an awakening, I don't know, maybe, but like, I also like, I've literally never done anything stronger than smoking pot when I was like a teenager, like once.

01:25:43 Speaker_02
And I've never done any brain type of, I've never touched adderall, never done cocaine, nothing at all. I probably will die never doing it, which I'm fine with.

01:25:52 Speaker_02
But I just, I'm very like protective of where my mind is and the trajectory of how my mind develops naturally and stuff where I'm like, I don't need, I don't need something to alter to, I don't need more. I'm already, I'm on that ride on my own.

01:26:07 Speaker_02
I don't need that kick. Maybe I'll be a billionaire if I took some of the crazy shit, you know?

01:26:12 Speaker_01
Or maybe you'll turn into Connor Murphy and have a... It's one of those things you don't want to risk, you know? A total breakdown, yeah. Just going back to the getting lean thing, there was this news article I saw recently.

01:26:22 Speaker_01
YouTube is to limit recommendations of certain health and fitness videos to teenagers, including those which may idealize certain body types. It says 13 to 17 year old users

01:26:33 Speaker_01
will still be able to search for and view fitness related content but will not be encouraged into repeated viewing of similar videos.

01:26:39 Speaker_01
YouTube says it is acting because of concerns that repeated exposure to such material can leave young people to develop negative beliefs about themselves.

01:26:47 Speaker_01
The platform says this will no longer be offered for teens when they can view certain types of content including videos that compare physical features and idealizes some types over others

01:26:57 Speaker_01
videos idealizing specific fitness levels or body weights, videos displaying social aggression in the form of non-contact fights and intimidation.

01:27:06 Speaker_01
The measures were being taken after its Youth and Families Advisory Committee found that teens are more likely than adults to form negative beliefs about themselves when seeing repeated messages about ideal standards in content they consume online.

01:27:18 Speaker_01
What do you think of that?

01:27:19 Speaker_02
I think it's very stupid because, and if YouTube's watching, I love you guys as a platform, but this is dumb because think about it like this. Okay, fitness might influence a teenager to do steroids, let's say. I have a video coming out on that.

01:27:33 Speaker_02
But the music videos that are dudes swinging guns or

01:27:39 Speaker_02
I don't know idolizing weird things that like there's always conspiracy behind like crazy you know music videos and stuff and I don't care what it looks like but that can just as well influence a teenager to go try smoking pot or go

01:27:54 Speaker_02
hang out with the wrong crowd or something like that. You could be influenced by literally anything.

01:27:58 Speaker_02
And also, I think this is why I don't think it's going to happen because the amount of money that fitness CPMs in fitness are well, they're not the best, but they're probably one of the top.

01:28:10 Speaker_02
They're not tech or finance, but they're not tech or finance, but they're right there, dude, like right below it on the next year.

01:28:15 Speaker_01
So many supplement CPGs.

01:28:16 Speaker_02
Exactly. So

01:28:18 Speaker_02
youtube be shooting themselves in the foot because there's so much content that's just good healthy i wonder how much uh is derived from 13 17 year olds age brackets that's a good point or uh everyone's just gonna lie about their age and nothing's gonna change and they're gonna make new accounts i do think you're right that

01:28:36 Speaker_02
I think the advertising is way too, they're way too lucrative on advertising on these videos. I mean, dude, I'm getting like 5 million views, 1 million to 5 million views on every video. You're going to cut my ads? Good for you.

01:28:47 Speaker_02
You're going to make no money. I'm going to go freaking start a Patreon. Yeah.

01:28:49 Speaker_01
Yeah. The negative beliefs thing seems odd given that we just went through a body positivity movement that was glorifying people being big. So it's like, okay, so not only are we glorifying fat people,

01:29:03 Speaker_01
We're also now limiting your ability to see people who might actually be fit. I mean, just think about the entire generation, mine into yours.

01:29:13 Speaker_01
I was the start of it with sort of Ziz, Matt Ogus, then bleeding down, I guess, into the Matt does fitness, see sort of Mike Thurston type stuff, now into your era. All of us were brought into this because of YouTube.

01:29:28 Speaker_02
The weird thing is, is that one, I've asked my YouTube rep, like, I'm like, please tell me this is, this is false. And he's like, Oh, so you brought this up? I straight up sent it to YouTube, one of the employees.

01:29:41 Speaker_02
And I was like, there's no way this is true. Right? Like you, I'm like, and if you, if it becomes true, you need to tell me ASAP. He didn't think it's like real. He was like, he said, first thing he said was cap.

01:29:52 Speaker_02
And then I was like, okay, what color hat? I'm kidding. That's a stupid joke. And so he says like, he thinks that, and then I sent him that article that you just read. And I'm like, are you sure? And he's like, I just, I don't know.

01:30:04 Speaker_02
He's like, it just sounds like it wouldn't be like plausible, but hypothetically, let's say it does. This is what's gonna happen to the fitness industry. There's gonna be a huge divide of people that

01:30:16 Speaker_02
I don't want to say that they're not intelligent enough, but they're not, let's say, social networking aware enough to adapt.

01:30:23 Speaker_01
To be able to bypass it.

01:30:24 Speaker_02
They're going to be like, oh, fuck this. I'm going to keep doing what I want. And it's just going to hurt themselves, the really dumb mindset. How many people that are 13 to 17 are watching your videos? Dude, as I get bigger, it's getting more and more.

01:30:34 Speaker_02
Interesting. It's like kids, I'll be at the grocery store and they're like, I see you on TikTok and stuff. And I'm like, all right, I'm watching.

01:30:40 Speaker_01
I'm like, what videos are you watching, bro?

01:30:43 Speaker_02
But it's like one of those things where one, I find it hard to believe that'll happen. And if it does, I have the unbelievable, I have the believability in myself that it's like, I'm good. I'll pivot, bro.

01:30:55 Speaker_01
Come at me. You know? I don't know how big your 13 to 17 year old fan base is, but I, I don't know. It's an interesting challenge because I would have been very disempowered, I think, watching YouTube and seeing fitness advice from the internet.

01:31:19 Speaker_01
It's such woolly language.

01:31:21 Speaker_02
What are you going to do like Jeff Nippard? Is Jeff Nippard going to be censored?

01:31:23 Speaker_01
Because it's evidence-based lifting, saying that

01:31:26 Speaker_02
It's like, okay, then in every video, I'm just gonna call a doctor and say, this is evidence, right? Yes, thank you. There, check. Send in for review. There's a rule, there's a way around it. That's how I see it.

01:31:37 Speaker_01
You've done a million videos with Ronnie Coleman.

01:31:40 Speaker_02
Yes.

01:31:43 Speaker_01
I get sad when I see him. I mean, I know he's still got the sort of, yeah, buddy thing, but he's also largely a man that's crippled.

01:31:52 Speaker_02
Is it tough being around him? It was something definitely to get used to at first, because I've shot five videos with him total, so I'm with him. And I was with Young L.A. before Gymshark, and I would be at events with him, always loved seeing him.

01:32:06 Speaker_02
There's been a few times where it's been like, genuinely, like I felt, I felt very bad. Um, and the few times where it's like, I completely forget. And I think almost he's forgetting.

01:32:15 Speaker_02
He's just like having, he's just Ronnie, you know, he's very authentic, which is awesome. I have a blast with him every time I see him.

01:32:20 Speaker_02
Uh, the one time where I was like, damn bro, this is like kind of brutal, like to see, because I mean, he's a legend. He was obviously not cripple at one point and fully thriving and

01:32:36 Speaker_02
It was when we were at his gym in Texas, in Dallas, Metro Flex Arlington, and the equipment is so damn congested there. And he trains there all the time, so clearly he does not mind.

01:32:47 Speaker_02
But his inability to maneuver from just one area to the next, and everybody's like, pausing and waiting.

01:32:55 Speaker_01
It's not exactly disabled access. Yeah. Oh, not at all.

01:32:58 Speaker_02
It was like horrible setup for him. But like, obviously he is where he likes to be. So he feels good. But it was like, it's like, like, do you, do you, do you want to help him? Do you want to like, Hey, you need help getting better?

01:33:09 Speaker_01
Is it patronizing?

01:33:10 Speaker_02
Exactly. I don't want to, I don't want to feel, I always, my biggest thing with anybody I'm ever with, I don't care if you're fucking Dwayne The Rock Johnson or Joe Schmo down the street.

01:33:18 Speaker_02
I always go into my shoots or like meeting people with just like, what's up bro? Like there's no, like no difference.

01:33:24 Speaker_02
Cause I, no, I don't, I don't want anyone to ever feel like I look at them in a certain way or I'm, I'm idolizing over idolizing them and that bothers them. Everyone idolizes me, whatever. Like, you know what I mean?

01:33:34 Speaker_02
So I was just, he's Ronnie's a dude, you know, whatever. So I didn't want to push boundaries too far. And then one time, another time we were on a boat and stuff. We're on a yacht. It was Ronnie's fucking yacht in Dubai.

01:33:45 Speaker_02
And he was just chilling downstairs and he was very content. And I was like, Ronnie, you want anything? Very chill, chilling. And obviously I don't know what's going through his head.

01:33:53 Speaker_02
And it's one of those things like, you know, back in the day, maybe he'd be up there fucking fist pumping and shit. He was always like a very extroverted person, still is to a degree.

01:34:00 Speaker_02
But I think it's one of those things where when you talk to him and you talk to him out, I asked him, do you have any regrets? Any regrets in like what you've done? And he's like, no, no regrets.

01:34:12 Speaker_01
Do you think that's true?

01:34:15 Speaker_02
I mean, he tells me his only regret is that he didn't go for seven or eight reps on his 800 pound squat. And then he says, yeah, buddy. And I'm like, I believe it, but I think maybe you never know. You know, I think you should.

01:34:27 Speaker_01
How much pain is he in day to day? Do you know?

01:34:29 Speaker_02
I've heard many things. I just, I don't know.

01:34:31 Speaker_01
Yeah, because I'd heard that he said my pain is always at an 8 out of 10 and I take the maximum dose of whatever that painkiller is that's super, super strong.

01:34:39 Speaker_02
He's doing a lot of stem cells. Okay. And he says with every treatment it gets better and better and better. That's good.

01:34:44 Speaker_01
So, you know. Yeah, it is uncomfortable to see, dude. And it's so odd as well because you've got Jay Cutler who is, as far as I can tell, just perfectly functional. We were with Phil Heath today. Phil Heath's healthy.

01:35:00 Speaker_01
Again, playing basketball, dicking around.

01:35:04 Speaker_02
I think that's the importance of realizing, I mean, right now I have a slipped disc in my back and I'm not able to squat. I could if I had a gun to my head, but shouldn't squat, shouldn't deadlift, all that stuff.

01:35:16 Speaker_02
But it's those type of things where, you know, when people say like, careful squatting, careful deadlifting, you're gonna mess up your knees, you're gonna mess up your back, and you're like, no, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm invincible, until you wake up and you're like, shit.

01:35:29 Speaker_02
I just, I broke something. You gotta be careful.

01:35:30 Speaker_01
Backs and knees, man. Backs and knees are two things that you just gotta be super, super sensitive with. You know, the end of my hardcore fitness career was two bulging discs in my back.

01:35:45 Speaker_01
And then I just thought, right, okay, it was uncomfortable for maybe three or four years for me to realize, okay, you can't do what you used to do responsibly. You can do it, but you're just rolling the dice.

01:36:00 Speaker_02
What did you do to fix it? Just stop doing things like that?

01:36:02 Speaker_01
So Stu McGill's big three. I heard that. Yep. So you should speak to Stu about back pain. I can intro you if you want. Please. He'd love to speak to you. He is the number one lower back pain specialist on the planet.

01:36:15 Speaker_01
He's done a lot of the studies, the original studies at Waterloo that much of sort of back pain science was built on. I get the sense that the field is continuing to progress now. I haven't spoken to him about my stuff in a little while.

01:36:31 Speaker_01
Tapped into him before I went and did stem cells in Medellin last year.

01:36:33 Speaker_02
I was just about to ask you, have you ever done stem cells?

01:36:35 Speaker_01
I did stem cells. What's your experience like? Bioxcellerator. Okay, I know them. Columbia? Yep, Medellin. Psychologically neutral, quite an enjoyable experience, the service is very good. Physically, very rough. Really?

01:36:52 Speaker_01
So for me, because I got sight injections, so I had intra-articular into the shoulder capsule and my rotator cuff, there's no anesthetic, into the quad tendon above and below the patella, and then into my Achilles that I ruptured straight into the tendon.

01:37:10 Speaker_01
So the ones that I got, I got every lumbar facet joint down my back. I got one intradiscal injection into one of the bulging discs. One of them was so bad that they couldn't, they weren't even prepared to do it.

01:37:21 Speaker_01
The other one they did, but you're under general anesthetic for that. So you just go to sleep, you wake up and you're like, oh sweet, that's all been done. But the ones in my knee and the not, the one in my shoulder was maybe an eight out of 10 pain.

01:37:32 Speaker_01
The one into my knee, I'm bouncing off the bed screaming. The nurse left.

01:37:35 Speaker_01
this nurse who's conditioned at seeing this stuff because it's a tiny little tendon like that that this guy is trying to fit viscous fluid into yeah and you think oh well at least at least that's the pain over and done with and then the inflammation response comes yeah and it is i had to walk like the tin man out of uh fucking whatever that movie is and i can't bend my knees

01:38:00 Speaker_01
Oh, for days. I was there. Do you know Aljermaine Sterling? He was the bantamweight or flyweight, whatever, the super lightweight thing in the UFC. He was the champion and he got his wrists done when he was there. He got his neck and his wrists done.

01:38:13 Speaker_01
So he was my lab partner, my clinic partner for the week. His wrists hurt so much he couldn't pick up a phone. So the weight of a phone was so much that it caused his pain, his wrists to be in a ton of pain.

01:38:28 Speaker_00
So basically,

01:38:30 Speaker_01
Pretty uncomfortable, but it's a unique category of pain because you know that it's in service of making you better. So almost all pain, you put your hand over a flame and you know that you're going to need a skin graft.

01:38:44 Speaker_01
You break your leg and you wonder whether or not you're going to ever be able to walk the same again.

01:38:48 Speaker_01
But this pain, as long as you have faith in the doctors, which I did, you go, this is kind of like the suffering that you go through before something great happens on the other side of it.

01:38:59 Speaker_01
So again, one of the themes today has been the story that you tell yourself largely determines your experience of the thing that you're going through. So the story I'm telling myself is, I'm screaming bouncing off this bed, but there was no fear.

01:39:11 Speaker_01
It wasn't wrapped in terror or worry or anxiety. It's just straight pain. All right, I'll shout and scream and call the doctor a couple of names. So that was interesting for me. Stu McGill's Big Three, I did for a long time.

01:39:24 Speaker_01
I mean, I've done thousands of hours of that one routine that he came up with. I've done it around the world. I've done it on a paddle board. I've done it in hotel rooms. I've done it in my home. I can show you. So that's helped.

01:39:39 Speaker_01
And then his main thing is he advises people to keep a neutral spine. So he calls it spinal hygiene. So the book is Back Mechanic by Stu. It's a little bit expensive. It's about 60 bucks, but it's really good.

01:39:53 Speaker_01
And in it, what he's advising is don't bend at the waist when you need to tie your shoes.

01:39:59 Speaker_01
If you're brushing your teeth at the basin, most people just hinge from the hips, but you can actually support by having one hand to brush your teeth, and the other can actually be relieving a little bit of the weight by putting your hand on your thigh or putting your hand on the basin.

01:40:14 Speaker_01
And he's got an advice for how you get up and get down off the ground without going into spinal flexion. So the whole goal is to just get your back to chill out. Wow. Um, but it's a very, especially if you had, do you have a full on back attack?

01:40:27 Speaker_01
Was it a slip disc where you were locked in? No, no. Okay. I like woke up and just like could not bend backwards. Okay. So if you even going through that, his, suggested protocol is just so slow and kind of frustrating. But now I have no pain.

01:40:49 Speaker_01
I can sit and stand for as long as I want. I don't deadlift, but step ups, lunges, reverse lunges, walking lunges, leg press, All of that is fine, and I'm sure I probably could squat if I wanted.

01:41:02 Speaker_01
I just think, I think I can achieve the same gains without doing that. So yeah, I pivot.

01:41:08 Speaker_01
One of the other things I was interested in asking you, you've worked out with a variety of non-typically fit people, like inmates and gang members and stuff like that.

01:41:20 Speaker_01
Who are some of the sort of secret fittest guys that you've been around that you wouldn't have thought of?

01:41:26 Speaker_02
Construction workers. Right? Dude. I mean, I found the strongest ones that exist, basically. Where do you find strong construction workers? You hire a really good producer. Right. And on Instagram.

01:41:40 Speaker_02
Um, they were, they do construction and they were freaks of nature. Definitely, uh, on some sauce. Definitely not Natty.

01:41:48 Speaker_00
Okay.

01:41:49 Speaker_02
I'd say another one would be the ex-convicts. I mean, that's like stereotypical. They work out a ton. They were very, they're, they're more just jacked. Big hands on the construction workers, I imagine. Monstrous hands.

01:42:01 Speaker_02
You know who has really good strength is like arm wrestlers. At least their arms. The sheer strength of Devin Laird's hands. I tried to, and even David Laid went against him, like two hands. You go, dude, you're never getting anywhere.

01:42:18 Speaker_02
Arm wrestlers are built different. Their tendons have just like calcified probably from all the scar tissue. I did one arm wrestling competition. I was walking like a T-Rex for like a week because I could not move my arms.

01:42:31 Speaker_02
And for them to do hours and hours and hours, I can't imagine what their tendons look like.

01:42:36 Speaker_01
Dude, that's so cool. Jesse James West, ladies and gentlemen. Dude, I appreciate the heck out of you. Where should people go to keep up to date?

01:42:41 Speaker_02
Guys, check out the YouTube channel, Jesse James West, and stay relentless.

01:42:47 Speaker_01
Heck yeah. Thanks, man.

01:42:48 Speaker_02
Thank you, bro. Thank you for having me. Seriously. We did it! Alright, you guys got my check?