#863 - Matthew McConaughey - The Hidden Art Of Reinventing Yourself AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast Modern Wisdom

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Episode: #863 - Matthew McConaughey - The Hidden Art Of Reinventing Yourself

Author: Chris Williamson
Duration: 01:48:46

Episode Shownotes

Matthew McConaughey is an Academy Award winning actor, a producer and an author. Expect to learn what “Don’t half-ass it” means, the story of how Matthew got his iconic starting role in Dazed & Confused, how to see the upside during any crisis, why having a sense of humour should

be your default emotion, McConaughey’s own version of his Lonely Chapter, when you should listen to your gut versus your head, why McConaughey turned down $14.5M to pursue something great, Matthew's reflections on the 10 year anniversary of Interstellar, lesson on finding the perfect partner, and much more… Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: https://chriswillx.com/deals Get a 20% discount on your first order from Maui Nui Venison by going to https://mauinuivenison.com/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM) Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period from Shopify at https://shopify.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) Get a 25% discount on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) Shop SKIMS Mens at https://SKIMS.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: https://chriswillx.com/books Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: https://tinyurl.com/43hv6y59 #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: https://tinyurl.com/2rtz7avf #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: https://tinyurl.com/3ccn5vkp - Get In Touch: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Summary

In episode #863 of Modern Wisdom, Chris Williamson talks with Matthew McConaughey about personal growth and reinvention. McConaughey emphasizes fully committing to actions, shares insights from his role in 'Dazed & Confused,' and discusses transforming crises into opportunities through humor and optimism. He reflects on self-acceptance, the importance of healthy ego, and navigating relationships amidst personal challenges. Through anecdotes, he illustrates how trust, gratitude, and identifying core values can lead to a fulfilling life, while critiquing society's focus on productivity over personal enjoyment. McConaughey advocates for a reevaluation of success to include quality relationships and integrity.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (#863 - Matthew McConaughey - The Hidden Art Of Reinventing Yourself) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_03
What does don't half-ass it mean to you? If you're gonna do it, do it. Say what you can do, do what you say.

00:00:14 Speaker_02
If you can't do it, don't say you can do it. Don't over-leverage yourself. Don't over-leverage a decision and then jump in and kind of dip a toe. I think I'll try it out. No, think if you're gonna try it out beforehand, but when it's time to go, dive.

00:00:26 Speaker_02
Finish it, find out. Come out the other side. Don't leave it and go. Ooh, if I just thought it, uh-uh, that keeps me up at night. I think it keeps a lot of us up at night.

00:00:36 Speaker_02
When you half-ass something and you just don't know whether you failed or succeeded, got what you want or didn't get what you want, finding out and looking in the mirror and going, I didn't half-ass it, I went all the way, I found out, and that ain't for me.

00:00:50 Speaker_02
Or I found out and you damn right that is for me. That's a great place to get to. But the limbo of not knowing if you half-ass something, the limbo of going, I hedged my bet,

00:01:01 Speaker_00
What could have happened?

00:01:02 Speaker_02
You don't know.

00:01:04 Speaker_00
Were you surprised when your dad said that to you? Yeah. When you were gonna take a pivot in life trajectory?

00:01:10 Speaker_02
It wouldn't have been in the top 100 things I thought he would have said. I was fully stabilizing in that moment. As I said, I called Tuesday night, seven o'clock, he'll have had a beer.

00:01:22 Speaker_02
He's already had dinner, not Monday, because that's the first day of the work week. He'll be a little more stressed. Catch him at Tuesday. when I unload this that I don't want to go to law school, I want to go to film school.

00:01:34 Speaker_02
And I really thought he was going to go, you want to do what? Again, the family I grew up in, the idea of me thinking that the idea of going into film, it's like very Saturday idea, a hobby idea, not a job.

00:01:51 Speaker_02
And when I shared it with him, the pause that he took, you know, another bead of sweat started on my back of my neck before he goes, well, don't half-ass it.

00:02:05 Speaker_02
Now I will say this though, I do know now, and I didn't know it then, I've realized it in the last 10 years, the way that I asked him is part of the reason he gave me that answer. I really wasn't asking him.

00:02:18 Speaker_02
I called him, I said, dad, what do you got in my command? He said, I don't wanna go to law school anymore, I wanna go to film school. I didn't go, I don't, I'm not feeling, I'm not sure about law school.

00:02:31 Speaker_02
I think I want to, I mean, I think I may want to go to, if I'd have stuttered into that, I think he would have, again, heard me half-assing what I wanted and gone.

00:02:40 Speaker_00
In the process of being told to not half-ass it, you didn't half-ass it?

00:02:44 Speaker_02
The way I asked. They asked, and he heard my own conviction.

00:02:49 Speaker_02
And I think what he had in that moment was what I think every parent wants to hope to have with their kids, is that, you know, we raise our kids to go in a structured form, follow this and you can get most of what you want in life.

00:03:01 Speaker_02
And that can work, but what do we really want our kids to do? We want them to follow that and then bust out of it one day and not even ask our permission. And that's when we're going, that's my boy, that's my girl, that's my child.

00:03:13 Speaker_02
We want them to break out. And I think what he heard then was I was breaking out without really asking his permission. And I was clear, I spoke up, I didn't stutter, my voice was out of my throat a little bit.

00:03:25 Speaker_02
And I think that was part of why in that moment he gave me the answer, don't have to ask.

00:03:29 Speaker_00
Do you think that sentiment carried forward into how you got the role for Dazed and Confused, that I'm going to continue to lean in, I'm on the front foot and 10 toes down?

00:03:41 Speaker_03
Yes.

00:03:42 Speaker_02
Now how much that direct sentiment from that night when he told me don't have facet had to do with that? I mean, yeah, it did have something to do with it.

00:03:51 Speaker_02
Look, when he said don't have facet, he was, and I talked about this in the book, he wasn't only giving me permission, he was giving me a responsibility. He was going, I knew I had his word with me in my future decisions.

00:04:07 Speaker_02
I was making them for more than myself. I wanted to fail less because I didn't want to embarrass him. And that was extra motivation, extra strength, extra courage, extra sobriety, extra like, well, let's find out. Go for it, man. Go for it.

00:04:20 Speaker_02
He carried on into other stories of other jobs. Time to kill with Joe Schumacher going, I want the lead. That's me going, I want to find out. And dad told me not to half-ass it back there a few years ago, you know?

00:04:31 Speaker_02
So if I don't go for it, if I embarrass myself, I'm embarrassing him. So that was also some incentive and some weight behind those moves that I made, some of them. Are you a brave person in that way, do you think?

00:04:42 Speaker_03
I don't know.

00:04:49 Speaker_02
People say that I, I don't think I take enough risk. I'm told that people whose opinion I admire, So I think that that's my greatest asset that I take, the risk I'll take and the bravery I'll take. And you still have a hunger for more?

00:05:04 Speaker_02
I think I'm still a chicken shit. I mean, not overall, but I think there's many things that I'm not fully assing.

00:05:15 Speaker_02
I think there's many things that I'm still could take further, that there's still many things that more risk I could take and more bravery I could have.

00:05:27 Speaker_00
Yeah. Could you tell that story, the Dayton Confused story of leaning in, of taking that Risk.

00:05:35 Speaker_02
Yeah, so, I mean, the initial one started when I went to, on a Thursday night, went to my favorite bar at the top of the Hyatt, because I knew the bartender, he was at film school with me, he'd give me free vodka and tonic, so I went there.

00:05:46 Speaker_02
I get there that night, he brings me and my girlfriend vodka and tonic, tells me, hey, there's a guy at the end of the bar producing a movie, let me introduce you to him. I walk over, he introduced me to him.

00:05:53 Speaker_02
Four hours later, that man, Don Phillips, legendary casting director, who was actually a producer on Days to Confuse, We get kicked out of that bar. I've had as many vodka and tonics as he had since I sat down, so I'm not leaving easily either.

00:06:07 Speaker_02
And I'm standing up for my new friend, who we hadn't done anything to get kicked out of a bar, really hadn't. We were just kind of standing on top of the tables, imitating some golf shots we had played on similar courses in the past.

00:06:18 Speaker_02
So we get not so politely escorted out and he's in a cab or we're in a cab. He's ride with me to my apartment, gonna drop me off before he heads back to his hotel. He pulls out a joint or I pulled out a joint.

00:06:34 Speaker_02
Start smoking, he goes, hey, you ever done any acting? And I said, man, I was in a Trisha Yearwood video for a second, kind of more of a modeling job. I was in a middle light commercial for about that long. I go, I don't know if you call it acting.

00:06:48 Speaker_02
He goes, well, you might. Come to this address tomorrow morning, 9.30. You might be right for this part. It's this character called Wooderson. This movie, Days Confused. I think you might be right for the part.

00:06:59 Speaker_02
This is three something in the morning, so 9.30 came really quickly, and I was on time probably five minutes early. And we were already pretty tuned at this time. Now, mind you, I get there, I walk in, they go, Matthew? I go, yes.

00:07:10 Speaker_02
They go, Don left the script for you. I open it up, it's signed by him.

00:07:14 Speaker_02
Hey, here's the part, Wooderson, I got three scenes in there, three lines, they're all marked, check them out, I think you might be right for it, good luck, let me know, we'll call you in for an audition. I go away, I go look at this,

00:07:25 Speaker_02
these three lines, one of them was what I like to call these days a launch pad line, which is a line that sometimes they'll have in a script where if that character means that line and that character's not playing that line as an attitude or a wink or a joke, if that character means that line, you could write a book on it.

00:07:46 Speaker_02
You could write a book based on that reality.

00:07:48 Speaker_02
And that line, in days confused from the character of Wooderson, was a line when he's leaning against the wall outside the pool hall, high school girls walk by, he checks one of them's backside as they go by, and his buddy says, Wooderson, you gotta cut that out, man, you're gonna end up in jail.

00:08:02 Speaker_02
And Wooderson says, no, man, that's what I love about those high school girls, man. I get older, they say the same age. That line, I went, who is that?

00:08:14 Speaker_02
There's a book on somebody, if that's not trying to be cute, if that guy's not trying to say something coy and clever, if he believes I've got life figured out, man, this is my North Star. So that line informed who the character was.

00:08:29 Speaker_02
I go, I read for it. I remember the first time I got called back because they said the sound was bad. And now I come back, I don't know if the sound was bad or the fact that I just needed to come back.

00:08:39 Speaker_02
She used to come back and read for Richard Linklater, the director, who I did read for and I got the part. Now the role was also based on, as I wrote about in the book, who I thought my brother was when I was 11.

00:08:50 Speaker_02
My 17 year old brother was already my hero. He was cooler than James Dean. And we had one day where his car was broke down and my mom, when I was supposed to pick him up from school and he wasn't where he was supposed to be, we're looking for him.

00:09:02 Speaker_02
I'm looking at the back of our station wagon and there I see this silhouette. of this guy leaning against a brick wall, left boot heel against the brick wall, leaning back, Lazy Sig in the right-hand smoking, and it was my brother.

00:09:16 Speaker_02
And in that silhouette, he was 13 feet tall, coolest dude in the world. And just as I went to go, wait, there's Pat, I remembered I was gonna get big trouble for smoking, so I won't say it's him. My mom goes, who? I go, nothing.

00:09:29 Speaker_02
But that image in my 11-year-old eyes went, that was Wooderson. So we get to the set one night, and I just go in for what's supposed to be a makeup wardrobe test, meaning put on makeup, put on wardrobe.

00:09:42 Speaker_02
When the director, Linkletter, can leave the set and get to a minute, he comes, checks you out, eyeballs, gives you a few notes, and you say goodbye. I'll see you when I come back for work. Well, on this night, I come out of the trailer.

00:09:52 Speaker_02
Linkletter shows up, has a look, as he's walking up, his hands go out, he's just going, yeah, yeah, Wooderson. He's like, peach pants. Is that a nude t-shirt? Ah, I like that. What's that over there, that tattoo? That's a Black Panther tattoo.

00:10:05 Speaker_02
He goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Look at the hair, the comb over. I like it, I like it. I said, cool. About to say goodbye, I think. And he goes, hey, man.

00:10:14 Speaker_02
He goes, you think, you know, Wooderson's been with the typical hot chicks in school, the cheerleaders and stuff. I'm like, yeah. He goes, you think Wooderson would be interested in the redheaded intellectual?

00:10:28 Speaker_02
And I'm like, yeah, man, Wooderson loves all types of chicks. And he goes, well, listen, the actress Marissa Ribisi is over here in her car. She's got her nerd friends in the back. It's the last day of school.

00:10:40 Speaker_02
You think maybe you want to pull up and try and pick her up? And I'm like, yeah. And he goes, OK, you want to do it now? I said, give me 30 minutes. I took a walk. Now I'm about to be in my first scene. There's nothing written.

00:10:54 Speaker_02
I've not done this before, but I'm going over scenarios. Where are we? Last day of school. I got some change in my pocket. I'm working with the city. Sure, Red Hill. Next one, we're gonna go out. I'd probably speak a little Spanish.

00:11:04 Speaker_02
Next thing I know, I'm in the car getting a lavalier mic put on me. I'm getting a little anxious, but I'm going, who is my man? Who is Wooderson? What do I love? What do I love? What do I love? As this mic's getting put on me, I'm like, I love my car.

00:11:16 Speaker_02
I said, bam, I'm in my 70 Chevelle right now. There's one thing I got going for me. I said, I love rock and roll, man. I said, shit, man, I got Ted News at Stranglehold rocking in the eight track. There's two. I said, I love getting high.

00:11:29 Speaker_02
I said, well, man, Slater's riding shotgun. He's always got a doobie rolled up. There's three. And that's when I heard action. And as I looked up, dropped it into drive, thought of the three things I had while I was going to get the fourth.

00:11:44 Speaker_02
And I said to myself, and I love picking up chicks, in drive, pull out, three affirmations of the three things I did have on the way to get the fourth. All right, all right, all right.

00:11:58 Speaker_02
Pull in, have the scene, try and pick her up, ditch the geeks in the back, gonna be a, you know, fiesta in the making, whatever it was, kind of spoke a little Spanglish, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:12:08 Speaker_02
And all of a sudden it was over, and a lot of people laughing. And Rick comes up and goes, oh, that's great, that's great, great, we'll try it one more time, do this, that.

00:12:16 Speaker_02
did the scene two, maybe two times, three times, I don't remember, and finish it. I get out, people are laughing, I just had fun.

00:12:23 Speaker_02
I think with Cochran in the seats, Roy Cochran, the actor who played Slater in the shotgun seat, he's giggling, he's like, that was good, man, that was good. And I'm like, cool.

00:12:33 Speaker_02
And all of a sudden I'm about to leave and Rick invites me back the next night. I put in some other scene. Anyway, he invited me back every night for three weeks, and I worked three weeks.

00:12:45 Speaker_02
Now, what I found out two years ago was Rick also asked me that night on the sidewalk, hey, you'd think he'd be interested in the redheaded intellectual girl, is because he had just noticed that night that they had a story hole.

00:12:57 Speaker_02
They didn't know what car they were gonna go, I think, pick up the Aerosmith tickets in. And who else had a car? Pickford had a car and I was the only one who had a car and had a little, a guy who had a job.

00:13:08 Speaker_02
And he was trying to start to fill a story hole. He didn't tell me this till like a year ago.

00:13:13 Speaker_02
And that's why he invited me into that first scene at the Top Notch Barbecue where I said those three words, which were the first words I say on screen, which were the three affirmations for the three things my guy did have. And

00:13:25 Speaker_02
I think they came from, not intentionally, but leading up to that role, I was listening to a lot of Doors.

00:13:33 Speaker_02
And there's a live track of Morrison at some Doors concert, I don't know where, I think he's in Europe somewhere, where he barks out, all right, all right, all right, all right!

00:13:44 Speaker_02
Very aggressively, not Wooderson style, but like four or five, all right, all right, all right, all right. And somehow that popped, I had no plans, but it popped in my head in that moment,

00:13:53 Speaker_02
as being, let me take that version, just give three of them for the three things I've got for myself, but in a more laid back, cool way. All right, all right, all right, pulled up.

00:14:03 Speaker_00
How did it feel to have that positive reinforcement so quickly out of nowhere, both privately and then publicly after?

00:14:11 Speaker_02
Well, I mean, it felt fun in the moment, it felt good. And then it became public right there with the crew and the cast. Now publicly it became, a year and a half later. I mean, look privately on that, I remember going, that was so much fun.

00:14:31 Speaker_02
I think I was good at it. People were telling me I'm good at it. I'm getting invited back. And then the other thing was I'm getting scale. I'm getting 330 bucks a day. And I'm working a job at Catfish Station waiting tables.

00:14:44 Speaker_02
And the most I've made there in one night is $73. And now I'm getting 340 or whatever it was for doing this. I was honestly, I remember going, is this shit legal? Is this real? What am I getting away with here, man?

00:14:59 Speaker_02
Yes, I'll come back for the pay and because it's so much fun. And then, you've probably known the story, five days in, my dad moved on.

00:15:12 Speaker_02
Rick and I were just talking about this the other day, because his father just moved on a few days ago, which I met yesterday. I went home, came back to work,

00:15:24 Speaker_02
Still had going through mourning with my dad, but had that sobriety that comes when you lose a loved one to death. You talk about sobering up and courage of the world, even more than my dad tell me don't half-ass it.

00:15:36 Speaker_02
Him passing gave me some real courage, man. I mean, of looking at the world straight in the eye and not being intimidated by mortal shit anymore. And so it really helped me stay and focus on the role. Had a great time.

00:15:53 Speaker_02
probably a little quieter than I was in the first five days, more to myself a little bit.

00:15:58 Speaker_02
That's where Rick and I kind of became more friends than just director or actor at that time, because he was the kind of person I was talking to about how I was feeling and how to deal with my dad's death.

00:16:08 Speaker_02
I finished that, I go back to University of Texas, graduate film school. On the way out, already packed up at the U-Haul, get the Texas Chainsaw Massacre job for like five weeks, which is super fun. Another under the table cash for play that part.

00:16:23 Speaker_02
Unloaded the U-Haul and drove out to Hollywood. And a year after that, I would say, When time to kills when all of a sudden I noticed, oh, wow, I'm famous. Life, I've cashed a new check that I didn't know about where I saved the world become a mirror.

00:16:42 Speaker_02
There was no more anonymity. That was a whole new drug.

00:16:50 Speaker_00
I think one of the themes of your worldview that I've become familiar with is alchemizing bad times into good ones. A reminder that things that seem bad can end up being good.

00:17:03 Speaker_00
And in retrospect, I think it's obvious and almost romantic to think about that alchemy in that way. But in the moment, it's basically impossible. How can people, or how do you have more of that perspective during a hard time? Yeah.

00:17:22 Speaker_03
Well, look, a couple of things.

00:17:24 Speaker_02
First off, I probably start off intellectualizing something that I know I probably should believe in, but don't believe in it, and convince myself, even to an extent to trick myself, that

00:17:45 Speaker_02
You know, sit here and go, or you just tell yourself, this too shall pass. Okay, great. Well, what the hell does that mean? Even if it's true. In the moment, you're like, what are you fucking talking about, man? I'm in the debit section.

00:17:55 Speaker_02
I'm in a warning section. This sucks. I think that how much I'm conscious of it or not, my undeniable optimism and faith that

00:18:12 Speaker_03
This isn't how it is.

00:18:14 Speaker_02
And if it is, so what? That's okay. Well, then really, so what? You know what I mean? What's the big deal? It minimizes, I seem to have a tendency not to make a bigger deal out of things that Other people make a bigger deal.

00:18:31 Speaker_02
Dramas, I don't like to create false drama. When it comes in a chart, I am affected. I get the blues, I get sad, I get mad. I'm a shit to be around. I can't get to sleep. I got demons in my own head trying to work the riddle out. Why did this happen?

00:18:47 Speaker_02
That's the other thing that's tough for me is I think that any bad thing that happens to me, my initial reaction is, what'd you do wrong to lead to this? Like in a relationship, Camilla and I get in an argument

00:18:57 Speaker_02
My mind immediately goes, what'd you do in the last two weeks to let this get to a point where you just had to raise your voice or she had to raise her voice at you? Usually there's some P's and Q's that were not handled to get to that point.

00:19:11 Speaker_02
So I like it when things are running like this. The challenge when things are running great is we all tend to think, aha, This is it, I've found it, bottle it.

00:19:23 Speaker_02
If I realize this, I can maintain this forever and the truth is bullshit, no we can't, but we can minimize it.

00:19:28 Speaker_02
There are habits that I notice of things I take care of in my life, health wise, faith wise, father wise, husband wise, that I know that if I'm doing that consistently, there's less valleys, there's less stress, there's less warning signs, there's less,

00:19:45 Speaker_02
problematic, oh shit, how'd we get in this? So there's consistently behaviors that I know I can act upon that have worked in the past.

00:19:54 Speaker_00
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00:20:50 Speaker_00
That's m-a-u-i-n-u-i-venison.com slash modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout. I'm fascinated by people who take responsibility for things that aren't their responsibility. We often get told pieces of advice in the modern world.

00:21:08 Speaker_00
It might not be your fault, but it is your responsibility. And one of the ways to unburden yourself is to assume that everything is, but there is a cohort of people. It's an arrogant notion. Yeah. Look at how I, if only I could have stepped in.

00:21:22 Speaker_00
Yeah, you make yourself a center.

00:21:23 Speaker_02
But also the first side, I'm the reason that I stepped in shit, which is also an asset. Even if someone go, why are you giving yourself so much credit for screwing that up? Yeah, beautiful. Yeah.

00:21:38 Speaker_02
I mean, look, I think part of this for me comes from we didn't get in trouble in my family for the bad deed we got in trouble for getting caught. So times where I can screw up and get away with it,

00:21:55 Speaker_02
I feel better than times that maybe I didn't screw up as bad, but got busted. Because I got caught, because I got busted, because I got myself in the pickle, because things didn't go how I wanted it to go or how I believed it could go.

00:22:10 Speaker_00
Is there something that you try to remember about the upside of a crisis during a crisis, or do we just need to ride that out? That's a good question, yeah, right?

00:22:19 Speaker_00
Zooming out would be so beautiful, and in retrospect, if only you could give yourself the gift of distance, of time. And yet you know something hard is going to come again, and you're going to be swept away by the wave.

00:22:36 Speaker_02
For me, I think it's an obvious dance to the both because you can't jump to the objective right away and go, inshallah, oh, fate will have it, this too shall pass, I'm fine. No, because then you don't deal with the crisis.

00:22:51 Speaker_02
I do have a pretty quick threshold for being able to laugh, like honestly start giggling when I'm in the shit. because I've found that I'm able to handle the shit better if I just start, the quicker I start going, are you kidding me?

00:23:03 Speaker_02
And I will, and I also, my, I'll get objective and remind myself things like, you gonna die, McConaughey, which gives me that, ah, so what, this is not as big of a deal as I thought.

00:23:18 Speaker_02
I also quickly somehow comes in my head, not right now, but one day this is gonna be a great fucking story. I quickly go to that, I'll project forward into those places that ease me a little bit, at least maybe look at it with a good eye.

00:23:33 Speaker_02
You're almost imagining being that future you laughing back at this present you.

00:23:37 Speaker_02
Yeah, and I think that goes back to the faith and belief that, again, I'm nervous before I'm gonna go speak or something, I got a little thing in my wallet, you're gonna die one day, McConaughey, and I'm like, oh. That relaxes me.

00:23:51 Speaker_02
If I'm going in complacent, I got another note, I'm telling myself, what you're about to say and do will outlive you. So you better fucking do it well, to get me more on edge.

00:24:02 Speaker_00
This balance is so fascinating. Being able to thread that needle, being able to find the golden mean, as Aristotle talked about. But yeah, I've heard you say that you should make a sense of humor your default emotion.

00:24:18 Speaker_03
Linklater and I came up with that in a conversation about 12 years ago, Richard Linklater. And we were just talking about how mad and angry and upset and offended people get if they don't know how to react, if they don't have an opinion on something.

00:24:43 Speaker_02
And we were like, yeah, man, wouldn't the world be a better place, easier to get along with everybody if the default emotion, if you're not sure how to respond was... Okay. Now, most people think they go, well, that's insensitive.

00:25:01 Speaker_02
But it's not insensitive. They usually think that means you're not giving the crisis credit, if you can laugh at it. And I wholeheartedly disagree.

00:25:10 Speaker_00
Oh, that there's some sort of tribute in solemnity.

00:25:14 Speaker_02
Yeah, that you're not... core enough about it, man, whatever that, you know what I mean? It's like, oh, you're not taking it seriously. You're actually putting me down.

00:25:22 Speaker_02
And just because you're saying you're not, you don't feel victimized and you laugh at this situation, you're telling me, you're making fun of me being a victim. No, no, no, no, no. I'm trying to deal.

00:25:33 Speaker_02
Because, especially when we talk about, if it's inevitable too, that's it. I laugh a lot quicker when I know I'm in an inevitable pickle. I have no other resource to get out of it that I know of.

00:25:44 Speaker_02
So I'm gonna start giggling a little quicker so I keep my eyes open and figure my way, maybe, because sometimes the hard work and the endurance and the elbow grease, the work harder we were talking about, that hustle is not the way out.

00:25:57 Speaker_02
Sometimes it's, I need to back up, laugh, have a sip of my favorite whatever, and dance my way through the raindrops out of this sunbitch. Maybe it's not banging your head on the wall, maybe it's backing up and seeing, oh,

00:26:09 Speaker_02
I got a key in my pocket that unlocks the door I've been bloodying my skull over, banging into.

00:26:16 Speaker_00
I do wonder why... I like being serious. I'm serious about the things I do. I'm serious about this podcast, as you might be able to tell by the fact we've renovated an entire barn. but there is something that you can take that too far.

00:26:31 Speaker_00
The seriousness can become a kind of rigidity as opposed to being dynamically persistent. You know, taking things too seriously, not swaying in the breeze. Presuming that you like the things you do and you want to keep doing them,

00:26:46 Speaker_00
the less robust and flexible you are, the more likely you are to break in those ways. And I think that humor is a lovely bit of ballast that helps to balance that out. I would frame it this way.

00:26:58 Speaker_02
Be very serious about sense of humor. Be very serious about comedy. I'm extremely serious about comedy. And I... you know, do I take myself seriously? Yes, but also take seriously the shit I don't, do I wanna know everything?

00:27:16 Speaker_02
Yeah, but I also take seriously the shit that I don't know. And go, be serious about that you don't know that. Be serious about that this is fricking funny, or at least it's gonna be. So I try to take the comedy seriously.

00:27:28 Speaker_02
So I think we can take sense of humor seriously, and we don't have to create a new category of going, oh, I need to be lighthearted or more careless and carefree. We can just care more maybe about the validity- The right thing.

00:27:41 Speaker_02
Of a good sense of humor.

00:27:42 Speaker_00
Yeah.

00:27:43 Speaker_02
You know? Instead of it being a relief, oh, let me let go of the pressure here. I mean, it's almost like it's not another bucket. It's in the same bucket of commitment and persistence and endurance.

00:28:00 Speaker_00
Talking about that balance between good times and bad times, the lessons that we take from each. Heard a quote recently that said, every man knows reflection and introspection when he's at his lowest.

00:28:15 Speaker_00
Bad times, you can't do anything other than wallow in retrospective assessment.

00:28:22 Speaker_00
But one of my favorite things I've learned from you is when things are going well, given that that's presumably what you want to have more of, maybe worth deconstructing that. Yes.

00:28:34 Speaker_02
I wish I could more, and I think more of us could all deconstruct our assets. Happiness, you can't guarantee it, but there is a science to satisfaction. You can look at habits that engineered

00:28:52 Speaker_02
less pain in your life, maybe more pleasure, but at least less pain. And that's a win. I try to deconstruct, look, I don't, do I write it, did I used to write as much?

00:29:09 Speaker_02
Look, anybody who's ever kept a diary, what's the old sort of nostalgic idea of a diary? You go there when you're in pain and you share thoughts that you don't wanna share with anyone else of those reflection

00:29:23 Speaker_02
I did used to, for some reason, I don't know why, but would force myself to write every day, no matter how happy I was. And I didn't a lot of times want to go write when I was happy, because I was like, no, I don't need to write it.

00:29:33 Speaker_02
I don't need to become conscious of it. I'm having too much fun. It's getting in the way. Come on, I'm doing it. It's living, it's happening.

00:29:39 Speaker_02
But, and in writing Greenlights, when I went back, that's a lot of the consistencies that I found that I wrote when things were going well, that I was taking some, for some reason, taking time to go,

00:29:51 Speaker_02
Can I try and bottle some science here to why things are going well? And I did find consistencies. who I was hanging out with at night, what I was drinking, what bar I was at, what food I was drinking, how exercise, preparation for work, for school.

00:30:12 Speaker_02
And I found things, I was like, you were really happy in this segment of your life. Let's go back and look at what you were doing. Oh man, I had Augmentino's Scrolls. I was on them every day. I had some discipline where I was checking in with myself.

00:30:25 Speaker_02
Oh, you were going to church on Sundays. You were giving, you were saying thank you, God, before you went to bed each night. You were appreciating more. You were pointing out beautiful things and not taking them for granted.

00:30:40 Speaker_02
And so I found a list of things. I'm like, and when I get off track, I try to remind myself, ah, you've been slacking on some of those. And I could pull it off. I've evolved. I got different ways. I get away with some now, but, you know,

00:30:55 Speaker_02
I've definitely found consistencies and I think we all have them if we just notate them along the way that they're not by accident. Because we sure as hell deconstruct the reasons when we're in the funk and we don't believe they're by accident.

00:31:08 Speaker_02
We can take ourselves to behind the woodshed and show ourselves exactly why we're guilty for every reason and condemn ourselves for every damn reason we got to that spot.

00:31:20 Speaker_03
Yeah.

00:31:22 Speaker_02
Well, if we're gonna do that, I just say, let's cheers, let's have a cheers on the way for all the things that are work for when we have shit going right. Also knowing that it's not forever, that we will have a mountain to climb here shortly.

00:31:37 Speaker_00
Isn't it interesting so much of content that people like to consume, books, podcasts, autobiographies, memoirs, is deconstructing the success of others. So we'll happily dissect success in other people, and yet only dissect failure in ourselves.

00:31:56 Speaker_00
This odd asymmetry where we bestow all of the glory on those people. Well done. And I must find out how to do it more, even if it doesn't fit me, even if they're a different constitution, different background, different time.

00:32:10 Speaker_00
For me, I'll focus on the negatives. There's a really interesting stat around the likelihood of you ensuring that your dog completes a course of antibiotics is about 95%.

00:32:21 Speaker_00
The likelihood that you ensure that you'll complete a course of antibiotics, it's about 50%. So we're prepared to look after an animal twice as well as ourselves. I was writing a note the other day, man. What does that say on the back of your phone?

00:32:39 Speaker_02
A sticker. Oh. Cheers to shine. Very cool. My daughter gave me that.

00:32:43 Speaker_00
Yeah.

00:32:43 Speaker_02
I wrote the other day, and then most of what I do is I use this Notes app, right? And I wrote the other day, where is it? It was on that note. I was like, what's my best advice I need to give myself right now? Is listen to my own damn advice. Yeah.

00:33:04 Speaker_02
And followed that up with, where is it? Yeah, trying to live with less gravity and more backbone is a salty task. What's that mean to you? Trying to live lighter with less gravity, live lighter, not take certain things so seriously, but still.

00:33:24 Speaker_02
had the principle backbone because as I'm getting older, we get older and the black and whites turn to gray and then there's a great word, compromise, we all say, which is such a mature thing to do.

00:33:36 Speaker_02
And then all of a sudden we let things slide and then we start going, well, change will happen. Hey, change is inevitable, let change happen. And I'm not ready, that's part of getting old. I think not just getting older, same with cynicism.

00:33:50 Speaker_02
It's a disease of getting too old and I'm not ready I don't wanna be ready to give up certain things. I'm going, no, man, the beauty of ignorance, those things that we believed in, I've gotten away with so many things because of my ignorance.

00:34:07 Speaker_02
I'd be dead 14 times in this life if I wouldn't have been ignorant of the situation I was in.

00:34:14 Speaker_03
And so, yeah, I... you know, not knowing or knowing what we know, it's a...

00:34:31 Speaker_02
Anyway, yeah, it's more backbone to hold on and be principle to what I stand for, what I stand against when it becomes easier and easier to just go with the flow. And I'm not ready to go, let's just go with the flow.

00:34:46 Speaker_02
I don't wanna pick the wrong battles. I'm trying to be discerning and not picking the wrong fights. Cause I like picking fights and going after challenges, but I'm gonna play, I'm kind of like, man, it's tough duty to win the fair fights.

00:35:01 Speaker_02
and there's a lot of unfair fights out there. And why do I wanna spend my time if I got 24 hours a day picking unfair fights when I'm gonna be busting my ass to win the fair ones?

00:35:09 Speaker_00
Well, also picking fights with yourself. You hinted just there at the difficulty of a negative inner voice. You take things seriously. You care about what you're doing.

00:35:21 Speaker_00
You want to achieve things in this world, which means that you need to have high standards. You need to posit an ideal.

00:35:27 Speaker_00
But as soon as you posit an ideal, you then begin to compare yourself to that ideal, and often you find yourself lacking because it's a fucking ideal.

00:35:34 Speaker_02
I think it's why a lot of relationships don't work. We make her Wonder Woman, and she makes us Superman, and neither one of us can live up to it. And that we've got that bulb, that honeymoon bulb turned up to 100 watts, and the honeymoon's over.

00:35:49 Speaker_02
We're trying to deal with some real, just some real base stuff. Let's leave it at 20 watts. We're just lit, but we're not just feverishly, you know, superhuman.

00:35:57 Speaker_02
And I think a lot of us just purport that on someone else and they can't live up to it and it ends up not being fair to them. And then they do the same to us and we both walk away going, I underwhelmed.

00:36:09 Speaker_00
Do you know the idea of the Michelangelo effect? Have you heard of this? Awesome.

00:36:13 Speaker_00
So the Michelangelo effect describes a situation in a relationship, friendship or intimate partnership, where each partner sees the best in the other and tries to help bring that out. So the sum of the parts is greater than it is individually.

00:36:29 Speaker_00
And the reason I love it is why it's called the Michelangelo effect. So the block of marble that David was carved from had been attempted by a number of other sculptors previously. Huge, monstrous thing.

00:36:42 Speaker_00
If you've ever seen David in person, it's ginormous. And when you're looking up as well, with that angle on the plinth, it's even bigger.

00:36:51 Speaker_00
Previous sculptures had attempted and failed, but Michelangelo saw inside of the marble what was David, and he just needed to get away all of the things that weren't. And I love that idea.

00:37:05 Speaker_00
I think in life you want to be finding people that believe in you more than you believe in you, that hold you to higher standards. I think that's the definition of a good friend.

00:37:14 Speaker_02
I think that's the definition of a good partner. I think that's the definition of a good husband, wife. You know, they remind us of the best of ourselves. They shine that light and remind us, because we do. I know I do.

00:37:28 Speaker_02
I put the blinds on it and I don't see it. A lot of times when I'll be reminded, this has always been a thing for me. And I don't know how this correlates, but I've never been as good in my dreams as I am in real life.

00:37:46 Speaker_02
I never win the day, get the girl, ace the test. I can perform in my dreams. I never have, never have. As well as I will in real life. Think I'm the same. And I'll get, and I'll be, I guess what I'm saying is I'll be, I'll pull something off.

00:38:08 Speaker_02
I'm like, everyone see that? And my friends are like,

00:38:14 Speaker_03
No shit, that's you, bro. What's the biggie?

00:38:18 Speaker_02
You know what I mean? It's kind of what I like about living in Austin, Texas. They're not really impressed with shit that I pull off. They thought it was cool, I won an Oscar, but they were like, well, no shit.

00:38:30 Speaker_02
And I was kind of like, oh, all right, yeah, yeah, thank you, man. And that's what friends will do in a way. Loved ones will do that and be like, yeah, there you are.

00:38:41 Speaker_00
Again, it comes back to that. It's so much easier to be supportive and gentle of other people than of ourselves.

00:38:50 Speaker_00
You will happily bestow this sort of gentle, reassuring pat on the shoulder when somebody succeeds or falls short when they tried their best.

00:39:01 Speaker_00
yet given the fact that you tried your best, you give yourself a kick in the dick on the way out of the door and a harsh word to follow you.

00:39:08 Speaker_02
Yep.

00:39:09 Speaker_03
What do you think about when you do succeed and a lot of people go, nope, that's nothing.

00:39:23 Speaker_02
I prescribed, I think we should take some time to be able to look in the mirror and own that thing that we pulled off and go, Good job, that's what you wanted, that's what you got.

00:39:37 Speaker_02
At the same time, be able to, as we do more often, look in the mirror when we fail and go, eh-eh, bogey, you did not pull that off. You know what I mean? But I mean, it's kind of,

00:39:52 Speaker_02
I'm big on the ownership idea of the fail or the gain, ownership being really important. And I don't, I'm a fan of the ego. I wish people, someone said this to me before. Look, oh, this, this, this, a queen said this.

00:40:10 Speaker_02
It came off the cuff, I didn't even think about it. She was like, Matthew, you're so full of yourself. And I, without thinking, I was like, well, who else am I supposed to be full of?

00:40:20 Speaker_00
That's a good line.

00:40:20 Speaker_02
And I stopped after, I was like, that's exactly what I meant. And I wrote that down. I wish more people were more full of themselves. Not in the arrogant way, but I'm talking about a healthy ego to understand.

00:40:31 Speaker_02
And I understand ego's difference between I and me. Me is the objective, but to know the I, I wish more people, I wish we were more full of ourselves. I wish more people in the world were more full of themselves.

00:40:43 Speaker_02
I think part of the challenges in life is a lot of us are running around half-assing ourselves.

00:40:49 Speaker_02
half fooling ourselves, not full of ourselves, not studying ourself enough, not holding ourself to task enough, not patting our own self on the back when we do get what we want enough, not cracking our own whip on our backside when we do get out of line, even though we knew better.

00:41:04 Speaker_02
I wish we were more full of ourselves that way.

00:41:07 Speaker_00
The guy that was sat there yesterday, Dwayne, I asked him, Something not too dissimilar about self-esteem.

00:41:15 Speaker_03
He took a little while, he said, I like me. I'd buy me a beer. I just thought that's so fucking great.

00:41:24 Speaker_02
Yeah, man. I'd buy me a beer. I'd buy me a beer. Hey, he's shaking hands with himself, you know? And sweet man, I got plenty of times where I sure as, I'm the last guy I wanna have a beer with.

00:41:40 Speaker_02
I'm happy to say I've got some time, I'm like, I appreciate drinking alone. You know what I mean? I mean, yeah, it'd be nice. Would that be, not more than nice, there's a better word than nice, but if...

00:41:56 Speaker_02
go try to be today someone you want to have a beer with. It's pretty good, easy way, pretty good bumper sticker.

00:42:03 Speaker_00
You know what I mean? Could have been in the book. Yeah. Talk to me about the non-deserving complex. Yeah.

00:42:08 Speaker_03
It feels similar. Yeah. So, it definitely, and I think it's called in their term imposter syndrome or something like that. When I got famous off of Time to Kill, I had more people saying, I love you.

00:42:34 Speaker_03
And I'd only said that like four times in my life to 40 people. And I was like, wow.

00:42:41 Speaker_02
This is, they mean it, you know? The red carpets and caviar, I started to get that, you know, why me? Why me? There's other people that deserve this more than me.

00:42:54 Speaker_02
And that's back when I had a, I was using the word deserve, which I'm not the biggest fan of now. I prefer earn, but I didn't feel like I deserved it in the big scheme of things.

00:43:06 Speaker_02
It was a, I think it's a, we have to, what's dangerous about it, I think at its core, it's a coping mechanism, but it's a false humility. Yep, yep, I understand. It's like, it's almost arrogant to think that you're

00:43:23 Speaker_02
You did all that even, you know, it's almost like guilt is an arrogant thing. Like who makes you the judge and jury of you on that? You know, it's like saying, being very arrogant to go, oh no, no, no, not me. I shouldn't have that.

00:43:40 Speaker_02
It does help you deal when the stimulus of the world's brand new and coming on you, it helps you back up. Cause you can't, you don't want to take any more arrows cause you're feeling it all as arrows. I sure felt that when I first got Famous.

00:43:55 Speaker_02
Talk about all the options and yeses, brand new yeses for me in the world. I pushed against it. And I even had clumsy times where I got ugly just to counter it. Like I said, I'm tripping myself running downhill.

00:44:09 Speaker_02
I tripped myself because I felt like, man, things are going too well. I need a bloody nose. Bam! I give myself one. Now I feel more. Okay, now I'm where I'm supposed to be.

00:44:19 Speaker_02
Does part of that come with the fact that I grew up in a middle-class, blue-collar family in New Valley, Texas, 12,000 people from a dad who's like, you get out there and you earn, you break a sweat? Probably, I don't know.

00:44:31 Speaker_02
So much stuff was coming at me and I didn't feel like I'd broken a sweat to get it. I was having fun what I did and I couldn't give myself enough credit for maybe he's going, you're good at what you're doing. And I was looking for the proverbial sweat.

00:44:45 Speaker_02
I was looking for the, Where's the exhaustion of a full working day where I actually, I drew blood, man, I did it, I made it through.

00:44:54 Speaker_00
Dude, the Puritan work ethic runs strong. I used to struggle, I ran nightclubs for a long time, and there was a period where I didn't miss a single Saturday, which was our big event, for 204 Saturdays in a row.

00:45:09 Speaker_00
And I would go on holiday, the holidays I was having, you know, I'm 22 to 26, something like that, so prime young guy territory.

00:45:18 Speaker_00
And I would go on holiday from a Sunday morning until a Thursday evening and then make sure that I was back in the northeast of the UK. Why did you make sure you got back on the Saturday night?

00:45:25 Speaker_00
Because I couldn't bear to have success without having bled for it. Okay. Because if it There were so many hoops I had to jump through in order for me to get a pattern on the back. It had to go well, because if it went badly, I was less.

00:45:42 Speaker_00
But not only did it have to go well, I had to suffer in service of it going well. Because if it went well but came easily, that was also somehow lesser.

00:45:53 Speaker_02
For me, I felt like it was a sin, almost. Yes. Not a disease, but more of a sin. I was like, I didn't pay a penance there, man. I didn't, I hadn't given enough tithe. I didn't, like I said, break the proverbial sweat, draw the blood to earn that thing.

00:46:05 Speaker_02
And yet I'm getting all this? Didn't, wasn't able to look in the eye. Didn't feel it. Needed things to feel. I also needed, at that time, anonymity, which I lost.

00:46:18 Speaker_03
Yeah.

00:46:18 Speaker_02
And I think everyone, needs an anonymous soul, and I had lost mine, and I didn't know what was up, down, left, or right. I got through stuff.

00:46:30 Speaker_02
If I look back at my interviews the first two years I got famous, I bet you they're so damn boring, because my two rules were be a gentleman and don't lie.

00:46:38 Speaker_02
Two pretty boring rules if that's only what you're going in for and you're creative and you got a colorful life, but I was just, Repeat it, stay down the line.

00:46:46 Speaker_02
It wasn't until later on that I was like, oh man, I trust myself enough, I believe myself enough to share how I feel about things.

00:46:54 Speaker_00
Yeah, privacy is one of the privileges that people are born with that they don't realize until they've lost it. And this has been a little bit of a trajectory that I'm starting to dip my toe into over the last few years as well. Loss of privacy.

00:47:10 Speaker_00
Increased scrutiny, a sense of eyeballs, and even a micro-niche degenerate version of proper fame, but still this sort of sense of vigilance being watched in some way or another. And yeah, it's one of those odd inverted privileges.

00:47:31 Speaker_00
Most people think about privilege as something that is bestowed upon you after you have done X, Y, and Z. But this is one of those things that as you tend to go on the trajectory most people want to go on, it's something that gets derogated, something that you lose.

00:47:45 Speaker_00
Sure. And you

00:47:48 Speaker_02
People have, you skip the salutations of hi, how you doing, what's your name? People have bio on you. They have an idea, an opinion for you before you ask for it. Sometimes it's hyperbole to the awesome, overly exaggerated awesome.

00:48:09 Speaker_02
Sometimes it's well below.

00:48:12 Speaker_02
and you walk outside, you don't even have to talk to the world, you know, you feel eyes, you see how people move towards you or move away from you, or you catch it all in your periphery and you start going, I know what they think.

00:48:27 Speaker_02
And maybe that's false. feels a lot better when it's maybe false, but to the, oh, they even think I'm better than, they think I did better than I did. But still disconcerting either way. Either way, it's all fountains, because it's not on parts.

00:48:41 Speaker_02
Why I headed out to Peru after I got famous, took the 22-day backpack trip, and I remember writing down, I said, I need to go test my, who I am, my character, on people who know me as a stranger.

00:48:59 Speaker_02
And when I left, after 22 days, the hugs and the tears of the, no longer strangers after 22 days, but the hugs and the tears were coming from people that only knew me as a guy named Matthew, and that's it, who showed up and met me from there, no biography on me, had no idea I was famous, no idea I was in the movies, and 22 days later, they're weeping tears of gladness and sadness saying goodbye to me.

00:49:24 Speaker_02
That gave me trust back, and I was like, I got it, I did this, okay, I got it. I can still fix a tire. This whole thing isn't just AAA coming to fix the car. You know what I mean? Okay. I needed that.

00:49:38 Speaker_02
It gave me a lot of confidence to come back to Hollywood and look a lot of the what I was deeming excess, look it in the eye and go, I get it. I get it. I know I earned getting here. I'm still, I still, I got, I got the goods.

00:49:50 Speaker_02
All of this, I may not have earned that. I didn't even ask for a lot of this, but I know I got myself here. Okay.

00:49:55 Speaker_00
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00:50:54 Speaker_03
Did you ever have a lonely chapter during your trajectory? Looking back, I would say I did. I mean, look, I had some wonderfully fun and healthy and honest single years that were, became sort of revolutions, that became sort of structurally tangent.

00:51:27 Speaker_03
And it was fun. Stayed on the surface purposefully. I kept it there. They kept it there.

00:51:37 Speaker_03
but I would still, you know, have many lonely nights when a man lays his head on the pillow, no matter who was in the bed, I was sleeping with me and felt like many times I was in neutral, didn't have something that I was building towards and chasing relationship-wise, even career-wise at that time.

00:52:05 Speaker_02
I got through it fine, I didn't go overboard and overindulge and didn't get dangerous with my health or anyone else's. mainly because if I did get to, if I get the blues, I'd be like, open your eyes, bro. Look around, man. You kidding me?

00:52:25 Speaker_02
Take your time. And so, you know, I would say ultimately I was lonely in that time because I knew it was a stop, not a stay. And I knew I wanted more career relationships, et cetera.

00:52:40 Speaker_03
But I wasn't really,

00:52:44 Speaker_02
fully committed, I didn't have maybe the wherewithal, the identity to go actually chase it and go, I know what I want, I wanna live a way to attract that.

00:52:54 Speaker_02
I did have a time where I tried to go find it, but as I talked about in the book, I mean, I had a time where I was every red light, who's over there? Produce section, who's over there? Every party, who's over there?

00:53:06 Speaker_02
You know, looking for the one, and once I was like, uh-uh, I had that great dream of the 88-year-old bachelor that I was with all the kids showing up. That dream gave me grace, man, because I quit looking for that one.

00:53:19 Speaker_02
I did start acting like someone though. My target drew the arrow. I started acting like someone who had a wherewithal and a peace of mind with myself, not needing someone to fulfill that drew her to me that I didn't have before that dream.

00:53:37 Speaker_00
You've had a front row seat to some, a variety of rhythms of marriages. Your parents, yours. What have you learned about choosing a good partner?

00:53:54 Speaker_03
Well, and I'm still learning, but... Friends.

00:54:08 Speaker_02
First, I mean, did Camille and I become friends first? No, we became lovers pretty quickly, but the things I respected about her and saw that she had were things that I valued in a close friend.

00:54:22 Speaker_02
Someone who respected their past, someone who had a great sense of humor, but was never gonna lie to put themselves to get what they wanted in front of me or take advantage of me.

00:54:36 Speaker_02
Someone who, you know, was impressed with who I was much more than they were impressed with what I did. Someone who very quickly saw the best in me and was like, I like that, let's see some more of that, you know, and watered that side of me.

00:54:52 Speaker_02
As we talked about earlier, see some more of that. Let me set things, let me put some more fuel on that fire so you can even be more of that. Why not be all of that, you know?

00:55:03 Speaker_02
Then if you're gonna get together, I think this was a Susan Sarandon line when she was married to, what's his name, Tim. Who was Susan Sarandon married to years ago? An entire room of people shaking their heads.

00:55:19 Speaker_02
Great actor, Shawshank Redemption, Tim Robbins. There we are. They had a line that said, We have similar moral bottom line. It's always stuck with me.

00:55:33 Speaker_02
When you're gonna partner with someone, especially if you're gonna have family, I think, make sure you got a similar moral bottom line. Because, and look, Camilla and I are going through new challenges now because we have teenagers.

00:55:44 Speaker_02
Our moral bottom line and do's and don'ts and what's accepted and what we wouldn't accept had been pretty part and parcel up until now. Teens are getting like, well, I'm a little loose over here. Yeah, let them go. Let them go.

00:55:58 Speaker_02
get that scar, let her go get their heart broke, whatever that is, let them go try it out and fail or succeed, let them go negotiate, free play. She's a little more, and so we're, her and I are working on that balance right now.

00:56:11 Speaker_02
And it's a new balance having teenagers as they're getting their independence, but having a similar moral bottom line, you know, connected to bringing out the best in the partners is having somebody you're a fan of and that they're a fan of you.

00:56:30 Speaker_02
You call each other on your shit, or you don't have to call it, because the look says enough, and you're like, yeah, I know. Yeah, that was me, bogey, you know, or yeah, I got away with that one again, no more, cut that out.

00:56:45 Speaker_02
And then what I'm learning now, trying to learn is that It seems we're essentially all the person that, for me now, I think I'm essentially the same person I was as I was 19 years ago.

00:57:00 Speaker_02
You know, it seems essentially the same person I was when I was eight, 51. But our value systems reorder as we grow independently,

00:57:12 Speaker_02
And as a couple, your value system changes for every parent when they become a parent for what's important in their life. So you read, you're moving things different places on the chart and the number one spot, the two spot and three spot.

00:57:26 Speaker_02
But to understand that it also happens with us as individuals and going that we do change. And how do we, even by being essentially the same person that we fell in love with, we still,

00:57:42 Speaker_02
need room to change along the way and go through things that may seem inconsistent with who the DNA of why we fell in love with that person or what we love, who someone was, but there's still essentially that, but give them room to change, give them room to change.

00:57:56 Speaker_02
Also the, I think it's a Springsteen line, you know, you don't, about sometimes you're running and the other one's walking. And it's okay to be ahead, but don't lose sight.

00:58:10 Speaker_02
Don't get so far ahead that you leave your mate lost back there going, you know, sometimes, you know, somebody's real healthy. The other one's on IR or still on the same team.

00:58:24 Speaker_02
that takes patience by the one who's healthy and takes persistence by the one who's on IR.

00:58:30 Speaker_02
But you gotta wait up to hold that hand to go, we're still doing this together, even though maybe in this zone right now in my life, I'm flying and you're walking. So certain things that I find, well, she's flying and I'm walking, you know?

00:58:46 Speaker_02
And so navigating that and how we change as we grow up and measuring that against, who we initially fell for in the first place and seeing, well, they are still that. Of course it changed. Hell, I've changed.

00:59:00 Speaker_02
I wanna say, you know, and a lot of times I know I, we say it, I know I said, well, you've changed. I was like, well, heaven yeah, I've changed. I'd hope so. You know, and doing that with a partner is part of the work, I think, of a relationship.

00:59:21 Speaker_00
sort of talking about transformations, trajectories, pivots, changes. Let's escape Hollywood and go to South America and see what's going on over there. Let's escape singlehood, pivot into a marriage, pivot into family from dyads to triad to so on.

00:59:44 Speaker_00
I'm fascinated by the aggressive pivot that you made between different movie categories.

00:59:52 Speaker_00
and that requires, I think, a lot of courage and hope and self-belief and faith in order to do, to let go of something good for the chance at something that you think could be great.

01:00:08 Speaker_00
I think that's something that a lot of people wish that they had a little bit more fuel for.

01:00:16 Speaker_02
It was a big risk, it was a big chance, and it was no guaranteed return ticket. It was a one-way ticket possibly to, I'm a head coach of high school football to this day. One-way ticket to a dead end.

01:00:27 Speaker_02
Or to something new, but a one-way ticket to a dead end in Hollywood, it's an actor for sure.

01:00:35 Speaker_03
Look, it's no coincidence that at that time, to have the courage to make that decision, I did have,

01:00:47 Speaker_02
really cool things going on in my life. I had fallen in love with Camilla. She'd just become pregnant with our first child. That gave me some significance of like, ah, that's what I've always wanted to be. As a father, here we go.

01:01:03 Speaker_02
If I stick with it, this will give me a home base to feel secure in, even though I'm stepping away from what has made me, given me significance for so many years and decades in my life.

01:01:14 Speaker_02
having her to sit there as much as I knew it was the right decision and it was a 3 a.m. decision in my own soul, she's always been very good with me about going, now say it out loud and we're gonna do, here's what we're gonna do.

01:01:28 Speaker_02
If we're doing this, she's the one that said, this could be dry for who knows how long. You may not get work ever again, but if we're gonna do this, I'll be here by your side and we're doing it together and there's no going back.

01:01:42 Speaker_02
There's no, we're not gonna get, we're not gonna get nerves at the goal line. If we don't know where the goal line is, we're not gonna get down the line and go, oh, I pulled parachute. Even if it's a $14 million parachute.

01:01:53 Speaker_02
Even if it's $14 million parachute. Even if it doesn't work out and you become a teacher or you go become a lawyer again, whatever. So making that a choice that was inevitable, that there was no pulling the parachute on,

01:02:06 Speaker_02
Sure as hell helped with the endurance of me being away for what was 20 months. I learned a lot of endurance in that year in Australia though. Same way, that gave me a lot, very thick skin for enduring something. So that 20 months was really hard.

01:02:21 Speaker_02
And I've said it before, that proverbial bottle on the shelf was looking better and better earlier in the day as time went on. I mean, how many more times could I work in the damn garden, man? I'm like, I'm not a gardener for life.

01:02:33 Speaker_02
I like this, but I gotta come on, man. But she helped me stay steady. I stayed steady. My faith helped me stay steady. I did have a real belief, whether I was tricking myself or not, that

01:02:45 Speaker_02
There's a bigger pot of gold for me on the other side of this, if I just out endure it. If I just out endure this so much. And it became a little like the year in Australia.

01:02:54 Speaker_02
I started to gain pride and honor with the longer the penance went on of being without what I wanted. And I started to be like, well, I'm definitely backing out now, man. I'm six months in. Turns into momentum.

01:03:06 Speaker_02
All in a year later, I'm like, I'm a year in, man. This is getting good. Okay, come on. And Out of the blue, 20 months later, I'd been gone long enough to become a new good idea. Where's McConaughey?

01:03:22 Speaker_02
Plus he said no to that $14.5 million offer three months ago. And I guarantee you that tells some people in Hollywood, what's this so much up to? You don't say no to a $14, $15 million offer. The offer's too big to get out." And he said, no, no.

01:03:39 Speaker_02
When someone does that, you get a little more attracted to them. This dude's on to something. He's got his own program. He's playing offense on something. He's not just regressing. And I think that also sent a bit of a signal.

01:03:52 Speaker_02
It was my hunch through Hollywood. And then the fact that it was just, honestly, 20 months, almost two years later, where's McKay? We haven't seen him in a rom-com. We haven't seen him on the beach shirtless. Where is he?

01:04:06 Speaker_02
He hadn't shown up in front of our faces. I don't even know what he's doing. Does anyone know what he's doing?

01:04:11 Speaker_00
Do you fear or did you fear not being sufficiently prolific, not being sufficiently sort of a front of stage, keeping your name out there? What if somebody else takes that place of me? What if I become irrelevant? What if people forget?

01:04:27 Speaker_02
I didn't have any fear of anyone taking the place. Because my place at that time was rom-com king. And I was sure, I was like, I've done enough of those right now. I don't need another one of those right now. I don't want another one of those right now.

01:04:38 Speaker_02
If someone steps in to take the place, bravo. I always like to say, I took the baton from Hugh Grant. And then I had my time. I was like, who do you think you threw it to? I don't know.

01:04:49 Speaker_02
The rom-coms are definitely not as healthy of a genre now as they were then. We were rolling in the rom-coms. They were like, can't miss this, man. They're medium budget, 30, 35 mil. So the studio's not blowing their wad on the budget. They come out.

01:05:04 Speaker_02
They make good money. Studios make good money. All of them kind of worked. Even the ones that didn't work as well kind of worked. Huge potential audience. Everybody can go see it. Repeats on Valentine's Day. Come on.

01:05:17 Speaker_02
So I don't know that they did really hand it to you. I don't know if anyone's really jumped in that lane or if that lane's even got a help wanted sign anymore. Did I feel the irrelevance? Sure, I felt the unease of irrelevance.

01:05:34 Speaker_02
I mean, but then I became irrelevant. I mean, it got to the point where I knew I was irrelevant. It got to the point where I remember my agent saying, I said, you heard anything? He goes, Matthew, I haven't heard your name in over two months.

01:05:48 Speaker_02
I was like, and you're my agent and you only have five clients. He goes, yeah. I haven't even heard your name. I'm like, that sounds pretty much like irrelevance to me, bro. Okay. All right.

01:06:01 Speaker_03
But never, like I was shaky, but never was I going to go, okay, I'll go back. Rip Cole, I'll do it. Never was I going to pull the parachute and

01:06:18 Speaker_02
You know, what if I didn't? What if those calls never came? Would I regret that sitting here now? I don't know, maybe I wouldn't be sitting here now, but I bet everything I got, there's no way I'd regret it.

01:06:28 Speaker_02
Whatever I'd be doing in my life right now, I would have said this opened up.

01:06:31 Speaker_02
We start off the conversation with this, the things you don't get put us more in places where we are, where we find our own satisfaction than the things that we do get in many ways.

01:06:43 Speaker_02
I mean, like say it's, you know, life's mystery going forward to science looking back. When you look back, we can all connect every single dot. It's mathematical, scientific how we got to this table right here.

01:06:57 Speaker_02
We got plans for this afternoon, but we're not sure what's gonna happen. But everything looking back, it's all connected if we go back and look at it. And there's a whole lot of, I thought that was the end.

01:07:07 Speaker_02
Well, it was the end, but it was the beginning of this thing. Or I caught that red light and therefore made me 60 seconds later to get to that cafe where I met that movie producer or that woman who became my wife or whatever that is.

01:07:21 Speaker_02
It don't make sense at the time, but boy, looking back, it's all a science.

01:07:26 Speaker_00
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01:07:37 Speaker_00
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01:08:28 Speaker_00
That's l-i-v-e-m-o-m-e-n-t-o-u-s dot com slash modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout. There's that quote about, the ironic tragedy is that life has to be lived forward, but only makes sense in reverse.

01:08:47 Speaker_03
Yeah.

01:08:49 Speaker_00
Ironic tragedy.

01:08:50 Speaker_02
Who said that? I mean, what do you think about all the, life's the ironic tragedy, life is pain, and it just is nothing but pain, but so if just if we can endure it. Like I, my mom, I,

01:09:10 Speaker_02
Can't help, she's worn me down with her endurance of her prescription on life. How old is she now? And she's absolute proof of the value of denial if you really commit to it. Absolutely. I'm a committed denialist. Committed denialist.

01:09:29 Speaker_02
And it's not an intellectual trick. There's no, oh, I'll intellectually deny it, so then I'll talk myself in, so now I can- I'm faking it until I make it.

01:09:38 Speaker_00
No, it's bam. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:09:40 Speaker_02
Fait accompli. No, it didn't happen. No, mom, it didn't. No, it didn't. Not to say it didn't. It didn't. And she's not, you don't catch her in between the lines or off by herself realizing like, oh, well, it did. No, it's done. Non-negotiably done.

01:09:54 Speaker_02
Her favorite word is yes. Well, mom, how do you think you're living so long? Well, I can't imagine not being here. Oh, geez, oh man, that's pretty good. I really can't. I honestly cannot imagine not being here.

01:10:06 Speaker_02
So she's beating two types of cancers on aspirin. And we're like, that doesn't make any sense. And we have to tie her up and haul her to the doctor, the dermatologist, if you get something on her leg. because going to a doctor in her mind- Recognition.

01:10:28 Speaker_02
Is recognition of possible sickness. So you go there, remove a cancer, take some cancer medicine. Do you have cancer? No, I don't. And you wink and she does not wink. I don't, I don't, what?

01:10:44 Speaker_02
Anyway, if you're not following suit, you don't believe it, next question. That's how she is and she's banned because she's not playing a trick. She just does it. It's a full on commitment to denial and it's awesome.

01:10:56 Speaker_02
She would not prescribe to life is painful and you have to get through it. She thinks it's, now mind you, she's very anti because she's someone who, like I said, I think I've touched on in the book, she had a horrible,

01:11:11 Speaker_02
motherhood, mother and parental growth. She did not know how to be a mother. How'd she become a great mother? By saying, I'm doing the opposite of what that bitch did. There's value to that of going, well, this sucked.

01:11:23 Speaker_02
I don't know how to do this, but if I just do the opposite.

01:11:25 Speaker_00
Dude, I love this idea. So I grew up in a very working class town, Northeast of the UK, famous only for having the highest teen pregnancy rating in England. And then it lost that. So it didn't even have that anymore.

01:11:38 Speaker_00
And I think there's that idea of food deserts in America where it's areas in which it's difficult to get good food. And I think that Stockton-on-Tees in the 90s was a role model desert, at least for me.

01:11:54 Speaker_00
So I wasn't around many people like the person that I wanted to be like. And at the time, I think I was desperately looking like a thirsty man parched for water for somebody that would be that. But in retrospect, again, ironic.

01:12:12 Speaker_00
There were a lot of people around me that were people I didn't want to be. And I was able to plant flagpoles in the ground that helped me to avoid the catastrophes and the tragedies that would have awaited me had I have done that.

01:12:25 Speaker_00
So I don't want his relationship with his family. I don't want the way that he drinks in order to be able to deal with his emotions. I don't want the way that he speaks negatively about all situations. I don't like the way that...

01:12:37 Speaker_00
I think much of life is avoiding pitfalls, not necessarily expediting successes, because the pitfalls can take you out of the game completely in one form or another.

01:12:47 Speaker_00
And yeah, I don't like dwelling on the negatives in that way, but also that's another version of alchemy that we were saying before. Hey, here's something that you think is useless or toxic or not valuable.

01:13:03 Speaker_00
and you've managed to turn it into something that benefited you.

01:13:06 Speaker_00
It's the same reason why teaching people lessons that you've gone through from tragedies, traumas, whatever in your life, it's kind of like pointing at the thing that was bad and say, you didn't get me.

01:13:18 Speaker_00
I'm gonna make sure that you're not gonna get them either.

01:13:21 Speaker_03
Yeah, and even looking at the things that are bad and going, oh, thank you, appreciate that. I mean, the push off You have established leverage rather than the create.

01:13:41 Speaker_02
You're gonna lean into something, but you also need something to push off. What you're leaning into is that mystery going forward, right?

01:13:50 Speaker_02
That ironic charge that you have something to push off the, well, I don't know what I do want, but I do know I don't want that.

01:13:56 Speaker_00
You have leverage. Yes, yes.

01:13:58 Speaker_02
It's there. I don't know. I mean, we can get into a big discussion on victimhood here as well. But I wrote about in Greenlights about how we always say, well, who are you? I want you to figure out who you are. And I try not to ask my kids that now.

01:14:18 Speaker_02
Why don't you know who you are? And a part of that who's helped me is Bob Dylan's line. He's like, I don't know what all this talks about who we are, man. We are all just what we create ourselves to be. And that gives me a little, oh, that's relaxing.

01:14:30 Speaker_02
But it's so much easier to figure out who you're not. And if you start eliminating who I'm not, by sheer mathematics, you end up- Moving toward. Of what feeds you and who you are.

01:14:44 Speaker_02
And it's a hell of a lot easier thing to go, how can I get rid of some bullshit in my life, than it is to go, well, how do I go to my true self?

01:14:52 Speaker_00
Do I want to press the accelerator more quickly or do I want to take my foot off the fucking brake? Right, yeah.

01:15:01 Speaker_02
Yeah, and sit there and, because I'm banging my head here and I'm going to eliminate some of that stuff. I want to get some of those things out of the way that didn't had another hangover. I drank the same amount.

01:15:14 Speaker_02
When I didn't, you don't usually have a hangover. Oh, maybe it was the conversations I was having. Maybe it was, you know, maybe it was the people I was hanging out with. Just clocking some of those things and eliminate them.

01:15:25 Speaker_02
It's a much easier place to start, you know, and maybe, Maybe more, is it maybe more valuable? I mean, I don't know.

01:15:35 Speaker_02
I always like to think that the UFC champ or the boxing heavyweight champ that believes they are the greatest is more empowering than the one who's out for revenge. But man, the one out for revenge wins a lot of the times.

01:15:51 Speaker_02
The one who's pushing against, now I'm gonna get back at you. Rage, nothing gets more shit done than that emotion of rage.

01:15:59 Speaker_02
We like to say, no, freedom and light is the one that carries, man, I don't know, that's maybe too evolved for us to really grab a hold of. Rage and anger and revenge are mighty powerful emotions, man.

01:16:12 Speaker_00
but get a lot of shit done. Yeah, especially in the beginning, especially for a short period of time. I think when you, it's a potent fuel that's toxic in the longterm.

01:16:21 Speaker_00
And I think that it's the sort of thing that you use to overcome the activation energy, especially the beginning of a thing. I need something to kick me up, the chip on my shoulder from the kids that didn't believe me in school.

01:16:32 Speaker_00
The fact that I felt like I was mistreated or victimized or in some form, there was something, some limitation placed on me. It's a pretty good fuel. That'll get you a long way.

01:16:45 Speaker_00
But you do not want to be using that two, three, four decades down the line. Well, and you'll, what do you call it?

01:16:53 Speaker_02
Self implode because you can't recognize your allies from your enemies. And you start taking it out on your allies. We see it in relationships. You start taking it out on your mate, start taking it out on your wife, your husband, your lover, and like,

01:17:07 Speaker_02
I'm an ally, man. We're on the same team. But you're back to that non-deserving. No, I've gotta bleed. No, I gotta win. I gotta get angry. No, you, hey.

01:17:18 Speaker_00
Well, also, the lesson that you've taken is enemies are more functional, motivating sources than allies. Right. Therefore, if I can make enemies out of allies, I will just find Lillipad, Lillipad, Lillipad. I'll just keep jump, jump, jump, jumping.

01:17:35 Speaker_00
Yeah, but I think what you're saying is that trajectory starts to go laterally now. Well, what have you got left? You've got an entire world filled with enemies, or at least no allies.

01:17:46 Speaker_00
And yeah, as someone who used a chip on his shoulder for a good while to get some activation energy, I much prefer the version that I am now. Me and a friend have three versions of ourselves that we think about.

01:18:00 Speaker_00
So we have Dopamine Chris, we have Serotonin Chris, we have Cortisol Chris. And Dopamine Chris is lean in. He's thinking about plays on the show and how magnificent and big it's going to be and awards and money and stuff like that.

01:18:15 Speaker_00
And Cortisol Chris is seeing threats and anxiety. He's looking out for that ambient vigilance that I was saying before. He's on edge.

01:18:24 Speaker_00
Then Serotonin Chris is taking a microdose of magic mushrooms, he's playing pickleball with his friends, or he's lying under a tree, looking up at the sky. I want to spend as much time in Serotonin Chris as possible. You do? Yes.

01:18:36 Speaker_00
I want to spend as much time in Serotonin Chris as possible.

01:18:39 Speaker_02
And I find myself- Wait, where's Serotonin Chris? Magic mushrooms in a hammock, hanging with his buddies?

01:18:42 Speaker_00
Exactly. I want to spend as much time in that as possible. But that wouldn't have got me out, that wouldn't have been the escape velocity that I needed to be able to leave whatever atmosphere I was in.

01:18:55 Speaker_00
I needed to run away from a life that I didn't want, and run toward one that I did. I needed to escape something that I feared, and I also needed to go towards something. But the real bliss is when you go orthogonal to both of those, which is

01:19:13 Speaker_02
Or let me ask you this. So when you're serotonin Chris, magic mushrooms with your buddies in the hammock, how long can you lay in that hammock before you get to? the imposters, the thing, hey, I gotta go accomplish.

01:19:31 Speaker_02
For me, it's going to accomplish something, to have some sort of purpose. I'm still working on getting better on vacations.

01:19:38 Speaker_02
My wife knows that I'm much easier to get along with on vacation if I get a couple hours to write in the morning and get a workout in. Dude. I wish I could go two weeks with going, Hey man, whatever, but I get antsy, I get edgy.

01:19:51 Speaker_02
I'm not present because I need a little time to go break a sweat mentally, physically, and then I can be, then man, the rest of the day, I'm great.

01:20:00 Speaker_00
I love this topic. I've been thinking about it so much recently. Type A people with type B problems, type B people with type A problems.

01:20:11 Speaker_00
So the insecure overachiever needs to learn how to lie in a hammock, and the lazy person who's on the verge of bankruptcy needs David Goggin shouting in their face. Now, the interesting thing is, because of culture,

01:20:25 Speaker_00
and because of the way that people are perceived, a person who is overworked but outwardly very successful will always seem to be in a more preferable position than someone who's on the verge of bankruptcy and needs to get off Xbox.

01:20:37 Speaker_00
So we gift more sympathy because it seems charitable, it seems supportive to the person who you just need to work harder. Think about what you have contributed to the world, which are movies.

01:20:48 Speaker_00
In every movie, the training montage of the down underdog is them working hard and learning to get up on time and be disciplined and so on and so forth.

01:20:59 Speaker_00
I don't know of any movies where a guy learns to log out of slack at 6pm and lie on a beach holiday. How

01:21:08 Speaker_02
like opulent and transactional and dopaminergic are you that you need to be taught how to chill out you not know there's people out there that would kill to be in the position that you are that's that's that's the dialogue right there that's interesting how about a how about a movie about the um a low handicap movie movie for the type a that needs to learn how to get off slack and go hang in a hammock and pulls that off

01:21:32 Speaker_02
And don't ask permission to tell it. Don't ask for boo-hoos for the character. Just, because no one's showing that. I mean, look, what do we do today? What are the things going on? You probably know better than I do.

01:21:46 Speaker_02
There's a lot of, it's like, people have gotten much more into meditation. Successful people got much more into meditation. You brought one up earlier, psychic psilocybin is now sort of an avant-garde sort of here. Hey man, this is a way to deal.

01:22:02 Speaker_02
Breathwork, cold plunge, sauna, sound healing. Yeah, now how many of those are we gonna look at 10 years and go, that was a fad? How many of those are we gonna go? That was a really cool discovery.

01:22:14 Speaker_00
Well, here's the vicious thing about those modalities that a lot of people, I call it productivity purgatory, which is the things that you do for fun, you only do in order to be able to service more productivity when you get back to it.

01:22:29 Speaker_00
So why do you do your breath work? not because it makes me feel good and I like to do breath work, but because I watched an Andrew Huberman podcast episode that said that it allows me to work 15% harder the next day. You go, no, no, no.

01:22:42 Speaker_00
Like your recovery modalities should be in service of themselves.

01:22:47 Speaker_02
Do you think this is a, if we're gonna call it a sin or disease, I'm gonna do that for stereotype and typical word. You think this is a sin or disease of the West? Because for instance, I'm in Italy,

01:22:58 Speaker_02
And we were with this wonderful couple, older couple, and they were both like 80, and they were just having shit together, man. And the lady was a great, she was like, you get great shape.

01:23:06 Speaker_02
She goes, oh, I was swimming around this island each day, and then I swam there. And my question was, how far do you swim? And she was like, what? I swim until I don't want to swim anymore. I was like, that's a very Western idea. How far? How much time?

01:23:27 Speaker_02
She was like, I swim until I don't want to swim anymore. You wanted to quantify it. I was quantifying.

01:23:33 Speaker_00
You tracked it on Strava, right?

01:23:34 Speaker_02
You've got a spreadsheet for this. Do you have your aura ring on? She was like, what? She was confused at my question. And I was like, ah, a beautiful stereotypical difference in a European thought and a Western.

01:23:47 Speaker_00
thought. But it's similar to that. It is very much. I mean, we were playing friends birthday earlier this year in Miami, and there was a pickleball court. But we were playing I like good British blokes. We were playing sort of foot tennis instead.

01:24:01 Speaker_00
And I realized that we were playing to win. and I didn't want to play to win. That wasn't the energy I wanted. I was in dopamine, Chris, and I wanted to be in serotonin, Chris.

01:24:09 Speaker_00
So I said, why don't we change the rules of the game and work both teams separately, but together to try and make the most beautiful game that we can. I want everyone to be doing trick shots. You want to set up the other side to do trick shots.

01:24:20 Speaker_00
Some of the guys were good football freestylers, stuff like that. And the first response from my friend that came up with the serotonin dopamine cortisol thing, George, his first response was, Yeah, and we can count them.

01:24:30 Speaker_00
And that's your lady swimming around. How long? How far? How many times? Yeah. Yeah.

01:24:40 Speaker_02
What? Yeah. I'm taking this thought to my, I'm going to play tennis for two hours when I leave here and the girl I'm going to hit with as much as I can, I'll see if I can do it. I doubt I can do it for two hours, but I'll see how long I can do it.

01:24:53 Speaker_02
Let me try and set her up for great shots and see how the rallies go.

01:24:58 Speaker_00
But even then, within that, well, was that shot better than the last one? Was that more beautiful? You know, it's this infinite fucking regress of performance metrics and all the rest of it. Speaking of which.

01:25:10 Speaker_00
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01:25:22 Speaker_00
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01:25:45 Speaker_00
Right now you can shop Skims menswear by going to the link in the description below or heading to skims.com. That's S-K-I-M-S dot com. Fastball. In six weeks time, it's the 10th anniversary of Interstellar.

01:26:04 Speaker_00
And I think it's being re-released in theaters in 70 mil IMAX. In IMAX. Yeah. Okay. How did that movie change you? It's my favorite movie of all time.

01:26:15 Speaker_02
So thank you for- I have a lot of people tell me that, that that's their favorite movie of all time. And that's another that a lot of people go, had to go watch four times. There's a lot to take in. There's a lot to take in. Classic Nolan. Um, yeah.

01:26:28 Speaker_02
Um, how did it change me? And you're not talking about like the success of the movie, but like the subject material and everything else.

01:26:33 Speaker_00
Either working with Christopher, learning about, I mean, you know, Kip Thorne, fucking the consultant physicist on that show. So much stuff.

01:26:42 Speaker_02
Yeah. Also, you know, it was in that, in that sense, it was similar to when I did a movie called Contact and I got to sit with Carl Sagan for three and a half hours.

01:26:53 Speaker_02
And he went through, and I remember walking away from that going, oh my gosh, as a believer, God's backyard's a whole lot bigger than I thought it was, which is a very humbling and empowering thought.

01:27:07 Speaker_03
I mean, look, the main thing was, I think, on the human side of the real,

01:27:17 Speaker_02
Me personally, I was like, oh, you don't leave your kids to go do what your dream is. And then when I changed dream, what your dream is to go do what you were meant to do, what you were born to do, that you have an ability to do like nobody else.

01:27:35 Speaker_02
I'm just like, ooh, well, maybe you do leave your kid. That argument and that leaving, which is that countdown, That's, I remember, that's where I was.

01:27:47 Speaker_02
That's the scene I'm remembering, is the price you pay, the cost, the consequence of chasing downside.

01:27:53 Speaker_03
And I had, my initial thought was, oh, Cooper's being selfish in the wrong way. You know, don't, and then, it's a good argument though.

01:28:07 Speaker_02
I don't think you can easily say that. There's a major consequence with that, but look at what, And I, look, I deal with it now. I got three kids doing my favorite job, but I think I was, I find extreme and endless purpose in parenting.

01:28:25 Speaker_02
But I'm dabbling in different versions of leadership that have to do with the betterment maybe, I hope, of more people, but it would become a consequence of being there and being present, like I wanna be for my three children and my wife as our family.

01:28:38 Speaker_02
I haven't found anything that I believe is worth that, at the sacrifice of this yet.

01:28:45 Speaker_02
And my argument with myself there is the best exports we can have, if we do it well as our children, no better export you can put out, a better extension of yourself, no better way to, you know, affect- Create legacy. The world.

01:29:07 Speaker_02
than hopefully having some healthy children that can go be independent enough and you taught them when they see the world in the right way and can chase down things that they love and they hopefully love the right things.

01:29:18 Speaker_00
So contributing to anything in place of that is a net negative.

01:29:22 Speaker_02
Well, that'd be my argument at the sacrifice of fewer that I feel like, oh, that's my lineage. I've really got to, I've got it.

01:29:32 Speaker_02
That's, I'm helping give them the palette to paint on and I'm handing the right colors to them and letting them fall from the right heights to the wrong, the right trees, you know, to where they get bruised but hopefully don't break a neck.

01:29:45 Speaker_02
You know what I mean? So, but it's a good argument, one that I understand on the other side, and I have friends that go, have sacrificed that.

01:30:00 Speaker_02
I have friends that have been very successful, even in the career of being an actor in Hollywood, and a successful actor in Hollywood. You know, this brings me back to when we first had kids before Camilla pulled the goalie,

01:30:15 Speaker_02
To get pregnant, she goes one condition, you go, we go. And my first reaction was, Hey, hey, hey, hey, I'm lone wolf artist here, man. I go off my Airstream with my dog. I'm a solo, you know, coyote here, man.

01:30:34 Speaker_02
And while I'm saying that, I heard my mother's voice go, you better nod your head and say, she's giving you a gift. Say, yes, ma'am. And I did, yes, ma'am. And that, we've done that. I have a 16 year old, a 14 year old and 11 year old.

01:30:51 Speaker_02
No doubt that has a major contribution to whatever strength our family is, and I think our family is very strong, and the security that my kids have, and the courage that they have, because we've never been away from each other that long.

01:31:05 Speaker_02
They picked up, came with. There's another side, I understand. You go, got opportunities that can do great things and I can share art or leadership in the world that, hey, I'm gonna be a way.

01:31:17 Speaker_02
And maybe that's even, there's argument that that could be better for your children later on, or maybe better for their children.

01:31:27 Speaker_00
But this is the, you know, we were talking about that infinite regress of being mean to yourself or it's emotions about emotions and stuff.

01:31:34 Speaker_00
Thinking about the decision that Cooper needs to make and also the decision that you need to make, you can always continue to kid yourself a little bit more.

01:31:42 Speaker_00
Is it more virtuous to stay at home with your children, to raise your children despite the fact that the likelihood of them surviving into the future and their kids surviving into the future is lessened by that?

01:31:53 Speaker_00
Okay, but then if you go and do the thing, you leave them, You're making that sacrifice, but are you doing it because you want to save the world or are you doing it because it's your dream?

01:32:01 Speaker_00
The fact that you can get something virtuous out of something that's also your dream is that fucking Puritan work ethic we were talking about before, which is the only way that this can be a virtuous decision is if I suffer more.

01:32:15 Speaker_00
It's only suffering, not just that it's good for the future, but also that I don't want to do it because if I don't want to do it, then I know that it's really, really true because it's a high price that I pay. Because go pull it off.

01:32:27 Speaker_00
as far as I can see, the curse of the deep thinker.

01:32:30 Speaker_03
Amen, amen, amen.

01:32:34 Speaker_02
A curse and gift, because it does do one thing that we hadn't brought up at a very base level.

01:32:46 Speaker_02
And I think this goes along with stress, anxiety, at the very base, in something that we can't take for granted, because not everyone has it, it means you give a damn.

01:32:55 Speaker_00
Yes.

01:32:56 Speaker_02
And let's not throw that out like, oh, of course you, no, because not everybody does. It means you give a damn about more than just yourself. And that's a high-end value and not an old-fashioned, nostalgic thing to go, oh, that's so 1950s bullshit.

01:33:13 Speaker_02
That's a real thing.

01:33:14 Speaker_00
Some people can't care, or some people struggle to care about things. Or in Thai people that go through their lives, it's odd, especially in the UK. loving things, being too keen. Americans kind of have permanent first-line cocaine energy.

01:33:29 Speaker_00
They're very excitable, and I like it. I like excitable people. I like enthusiasm. However, the UK doesn't necessarily have that quite so much, and I always think

01:33:44 Speaker_00
how much more I would, how much I wish I could gift that back to the UK, about how much that positive reinforcement, we were saying it before, that first scene that you do, and the guy next to you goes, hey, that was pretty good.

01:33:59 Speaker_00
The right encouraging word, the right time, where would that push people to? And okay, if that's what you want for you in the world,

01:34:11 Speaker_00
You have the opportunity to be that for other people and maybe it's going to start to come back around and maybe we can begin to change culture a little bit by doing this.

01:34:18 Speaker_02
When will that English, or does it, does it have someone though that is constantly like, ah, bullocks, that goes and succeeds that the English culture goes. Fucking bravo.

01:34:33 Speaker_00
Rarely. Was it ever? Rarely. So, interesting stat around the UK. Globally, so far in 2024, the UK has the second highest number of millionaire exits on earth. What's a millionaire exit?

01:34:46 Speaker_00
A millionaire that has left the country and is now living in a different nation. China, first, 15,000. UK, second, 9,500. But the UK is 3% of the population of China. Wow. So pro rata, we have got by far the most millionaires leaving, by far.

01:35:05 Speaker_00
We do not have a good culture around supporting success, around people doing different things. Another great example of this, the UK has got three universities, two or three universities in the top 10 in the world, as does America.

01:35:22 Speaker_00
So it'll be Oxford, Cambridge, maybe King's or Durham in the UK, and there'll be Yale, Princeton, Harvard, something else in the US and a couple of others.

01:35:31 Speaker_00
And we have 20% the number of startup founders, despite the fact that we have the same number of university graduates going from top flight universities. Why? Culture. Well, speaking of that, what did you learn? You did The Gentleman with Guy. Yeah.

01:35:47 Speaker_00
You spent a good bit of time, presumably, enmeshing yourself into British culture. What did you learn while you were there?

01:35:54 Speaker_02
Well, so there is still a royal dance to play the part and do, and I found that interesting and quite entertaining. I remember

01:36:10 Speaker_02
you know, that everything has, there's a costume and a timing and who goes here when, and here's how you sit there, and this is how we do this, and I found it very interesting and- Pomp and circumstance.

01:36:21 Speaker_02
Yeah, it was all there, and I indulged and played that part and enjoyed. Bit of whimsy. Now, when I went out and they saw that I was actually a very good shot at pheasants, I got a few, hey, I got a few attaboys.

01:36:35 Speaker_00
Bring the American over here.

01:36:36 Speaker_02
Hey, we like you now, right? Good with guns. And then I remember this one though, where the, I think the term is where the posh went overboard, but nobody seemed to notice it but me. And we were at this dinner and it was one of those dinners where

01:36:54 Speaker_02
24 people on this side, 24 people on this side. Mrs. is down there and Mr. is down here. Mrs. has a 24 foot by 18 foot oil painting of herself over her chair and Mr. has a 24 foot by 18 foot over his chair.

01:37:07 Speaker_02
And it was just absolutely, it's all just fucking great. Everyone had their own waiter that saw, ding, on time. And this is just absolutely great. Well, after the dinner,

01:37:16 Speaker_02
The youngsters, the sons and the daughters had come over with their friends and they were all, it's all so posh to smoke a cigarette, yes? And I remember this one kid flicking the ash. There's an ashtray right there on the table, boom, on the carpet.

01:37:28 Speaker_02
I was like, dude. And without even saying it, he's like, no, man, it's more posh, it's a, it's a, it's a, I'm posturing, it's cooler to go, I can drop my hash on your $550,000 Persian rug than it is to put it in the ashtray. And I was like.

01:37:52 Speaker_02
Well, that one, I think y'all went overboard. I think you went out of bounds on that one. But the fact that that was, it was games and shit, but they were doing it, and consistently.

01:38:01 Speaker_00
Isn't it fascinating, the Americans are basically blind to class. You've had to use the word posh almost in speech marks there. Right. It's like a word that- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:38:11 Speaker_00
There is not a single school child that doesn't use the word posh in primary school once a day in England. everybody. And it means class? It means this person is well-to-do from a well-to-do background. Okay.

01:38:24 Speaker_00
And there's, you know, I remember there was a guy that I played cricket with. Cricket's still a working-class sport in the UK. It's not necessarily upper-class. It's a very working-class town.

01:38:35 Speaker_00
There was a kid who got an A-class Mercedes used for his 17th birthday, which is when you can drive in the UK. And I was like, wow.

01:38:46 Speaker_00
Danny's from a posh family, I never really knew that much, but I knew he had money, he always had a nice kit, he always had new boots at the start of each season, but I was like, wow, he got a Mercedes.

01:38:54 Speaker_00
In retrospect, it's maybe a seven grand car, 10 grand car, something like that. For me, I'm like, oh, Mercedes, posh.

01:39:01 Speaker_02
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is there something though going on with the, as the royal family and the king and the queen are losing

01:39:13 Speaker_02
power and that's becoming is is is these these millionaire exits is this still a bit of a how dare you become that wealthy in the private sector you're not a royal or no i don't think with regards to that but there is definitely a skepticism around the monarchy at the moment i'm

01:39:33 Speaker_00
I'm really not sure where I stand on that. One of my friends has a very compelling argument that we should do away with it, doesn't like the word your highness, higher than what. But also, what was it that you were just saying?

01:39:45 Speaker_00
What have we got if we don't hold on to the culture and the things that people know us for? I like the Pomp and Circumstance.

01:39:53 Speaker_00
When I graduated from Newcastle University, there's this 10-minute procession of different mace bearers literally wielding medieval weapons, dothing their caps to different people in different sequences in order to show who and where and why.

01:40:12 Speaker_00
It's like, this is fucking cool.

01:40:14 Speaker_02
Whatever it is, it's still, because America, we're, whether we know it or not, we're hungry for ritual. Yes. And we don't have near as much ritual.

01:40:24 Speaker_00
It's not established, right? There's trees that are older than your country.

01:40:27 Speaker_02
Yeah, we're just puppies. I hope that you don't get watered down to where, because y'all have amazing ritual. Laugh, giggle at it or not, do it and appreciate it and go, this is, a different place and it's been around a while.

01:40:45 Speaker_02
Yeah, posh, it's class, okay.

01:40:48 Speaker_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little bit well-to-do.

01:40:51 Speaker_02
Okay.

01:40:52 Speaker_00
You mentioned there about some of the prices that people need to pay in order to be who they are. Yeah. I'm fascinated by this question. I'm fascinated by the cost of entry, price of doing business. to be a person that other people admire.

01:41:11 Speaker_00
Because I think that it helps to humanize other's success, and it helps to mitigate jealousy and envy, because you see what someone has had to go through in order to be in a position that you think you want to be.

01:41:24 Speaker_00
And they go, oh, you get to see this much. By the way, there's this monster hiding behind.

01:41:33 Speaker_03
What do you wish more people knew about the price of success in life? Well, success has taken on different definitions.

01:41:48 Speaker_02
over time, it used to have to do, and some people listening to this will be like, ah, come on, McConaughey, it used to have to do with integrity. Actually, I think it was a word that was in the definition in 1901 or 11.

01:42:04 Speaker_02
And now, you know, money, fame, that's your definition of success. So it seems to be that, and always has been to some extent, Whoever has more is the most successful, more access, more money, you're the winner.

01:42:22 Speaker_02
The last, for a lot, that is, I'm not saying it's a race to the red light, but I am saying the fourth quarter of that being your goal, the residuals decline on quality.

01:42:42 Speaker_02
I've met many more very rich men who chased that dollar to be successful and to be relevant for having the most money that the last 15, 20, even younger years were bewildered. lost, had no relationships, didn't have purpose.

01:43:05 Speaker_02
Chasing the dollar, they just did it. They were good at it and made it happen, but they didn't feel what they were doing.

01:43:10 Speaker_02
They couldn't even necessarily say what they were really good at, just good deal makers or made the right calls in certain mathematics. But that's definition. It's also why I wasn't surprised when Trump first got elected. He had fame, he had money.

01:43:29 Speaker_02
We sell that every day in the West as this is how you make it. It's America. This is what you do. That's America. That's America. Yeah. So I was not surprised because that's what we're getting fed. What a success. Let me pre-phrase it with this.

01:43:49 Speaker_02
We all wanna be relevant, but I think we all forget to ask ourself relevant for what before we chase our relevance or chase success. I think there's a difference between success and profit. I mean, profit does pay you back.

01:44:04 Speaker_02
Can you do things, and I love money, I'm all for it, but there, I see a lot of one-way tickets that are, you can get successful, win, have more money, but not be making a profit in your life. How many times we sacrifice quality for quantity?

01:44:20 Speaker_02
The two don't have to be. separate. Now, you may have to make some sacrifices of quantity to have more quality, but I think we should give quality more credit than we do.

01:44:29 Speaker_00
Well, are we not ultimately having more quantity in the hopes of more quality?

01:44:33 Speaker_02
You're sacrificing... But that's not a quid pro quo. It doesn't equal out to that. We believe it. It will. And hey, it can access... I mean, I got a lot of things now for money I've made that I'm like, Damn right, man. I'm glad I have that.

01:44:48 Speaker_02
That makes my life not even more convenient. I actually like that more. I like what I can do with my family more with that. I like what Camille and I can do as a husband and wife. I like what I can do solo even more with that and enjoy it.

01:45:01 Speaker_02
And again, it feeds me.

01:45:04 Speaker_03
But would I be any less, would I be any less happy if I had, a 30th, a 40th, a 50th of what I have right now? No, I know that. There's no way I'd be any less happy.

01:45:24 Speaker_02
No way I'd be less happy. Do I wanna give all that away and say, well, will it make me poor? Sometimes I'm like, yeah, you need to be more poor. Other times I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Don't be getting the imposter syndrome on this one.

01:45:36 Speaker_02
You're using it for, you're using it pretty good. You could use it even better, but don't be, don't get mad at it. You know what I mean? I think we just need to ask ourself that question, relevant for what?

01:45:48 Speaker_02
And also in the pursuit of quantity, which is what the world rewards, ask ourself, watch out just drinking the Kool-Aid and go, what is the quality? What do I want? And again, that's a hard question of what do I value the most?

01:46:02 Speaker_02
What do I really value the most? And it's a hard question to answer, but if we can answer that, it'll make us answer the quality question.

01:46:12 Speaker_02
of what we want more of, and not just the quantity question, because a lot of us, I've done it too, been blind as can be chasing the quantity to see, let me see if I can get the biggest number. That's dopamine, Matthew.

01:46:22 Speaker_02
Dopamine, Matthew, and I'm pretty damn good at it.

01:46:24 Speaker_02
If I want to put all my business out and go, that's all I'm going to be right here, found out I'm pretty good at it, but I don't want to stay in that dopamine, Matthew, on that, because I don't get the reward.

01:46:34 Speaker_02
I get the reward of the acquisition, but the acquisition does not equally pay back the dopamine of the getting, it's the conquering, that's the hit, you know?

01:46:47 Speaker_02
Everyone can have their own definition of success and ask yourself, can I have quality with the quantity and can I have profit with my success? And profit goes into, leans into relationships. I think profit ends up to be a spiritual question too.

01:47:06 Speaker_02
and how we treat ourselves and others. I think it's a longer game. This chase for just success, if that's money and quantity, is a short-sighted game. if that's all you're after.

01:47:18 Speaker_02
Now, I understand some people out there who can't pay their rent or are sick and trying to make it to the next day would listen to this and go, easy for you to say. And I say, you are correct.

01:47:26 Speaker_02
I'm speaking from where, from my position, because you asked me. Because you've got some people that are going, this is a hyperbolic conversation you're having. I'm trying to make it to the next day.

01:47:36 Speaker_00
Type B person with a type A problem thinks, what a champagne issue that is.

01:47:41 Speaker_02
But it's a real one and I'm apologizing for it, but I understand the difference.

01:47:46 Speaker_02
But I would say that if more people that are type A or maybe other things are working out, just check your quality as you're chasing your quality and make sure that whatever you're succeeding at is giving you actual profit and actually paying you back.

01:48:01 Speaker_00
Matthew McConaughey, ladies and gentlemen. Dude, I really appreciate you. I love the way that you think. I love your insights about life. Congratulations on the new book. Congratulations on the tequila. Thank you. Thank you for coming today.

01:48:15 Speaker_00
I really, really enjoyed this.

01:48:17 Speaker_01
I did too, Chris, very much.

01:48:18 Speaker_02
I'm glad to be here, man. Met up top in a barn somewhere in Austin where I was looking down, didn't even know where I was going. Showed up at a barn, I was like, oh, this is where we are. Yes, it is. Seems on brand for you.

01:48:27 Speaker_00
I like it. Heck yeah. Dude, until next time. Until. Thank you very much for tuning in. Look, we went to a lot of effort to get Mr. McConaughey here and convert an old barn that's from the 1800s in Texas. So I really hope you enjoyed it.

01:48:44 Speaker_00
I'll see you next time.