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Episode: #740: Greg McKeown and Diana Chapman

Author: Tim Ferriss: Bestselling Author, Human Guinea Pig
Duration: 02:08:49

Episode Shownotes

This episode is a two-for-one, and that’s because the podcast recently hit its 10-year anniversary and passed one billion downloads. To celebrate, I’ve curated some of the best of the best—some of my favorites—from more than 700 episodes over the last decade. I could not be more excited. The episode

features segments from episode #355 "Greg McKeown — How to Master Essentialism" and episode #536 "Diana Chapman — How to Get Unstuck, Do “The Work,” Take Radical Responsibility, and Reduce Drama in Your Life."Please enjoy!Sponsors:Momentous high-quality supplements: https://livemomentous.com/tim (code TIM for 20% off)Wealthfront high-yield savings account: https://wealthfront.com/tim (5% interest on your savings, and when you open an account today, you’ll get an extra fifty-dollar bonus with a deposit of five hundred dollars or more)Helix Sleep premium mattresses: https://helixsleep.com/tim (between 25% and 30% off all mattress orders and two free pillows.)Timestamps:[00:00] Start[05:26] Notes about this supercombo format.[06:28] Enter Greg McKeown.[06:49] What is non-essential?[07:46] Overcoming the planning fallacy.[13:30] The problem with taking ownership of someone else’s problems.[15:44] How to avoid committing to the unsustainable.[21:26] Three rules.[25:28] The personal quarterly offsite.[33:05] Enter Diana Chapman.[33:22] A transformative gift.[36:56] The Drama Triangle.[43:36] The whole-body yes (or no) and how it can serve us.[46:06] Diana guides an experience to help pay better attention to our whole-body yes (or no).[54:36] Observations made during the exercise and how Diana recommends using this inventory.[1:01:39] Fostering playfulness for those who mute their desire to celebrate.[1:08:28] Diana’s “black belt in practicing candor.”[1:09:37] Diana’s thoughts on loving pressure and how to bring it into a relationship.[1:13:24] Applying loving pressure to people you don’t know well.[1:15:08] Diana’s guidance on introspection leading to perspective shifts; using Byron Katie’s “turnarounds.”[1:17:48] Diana guides me through a turnaround.[1:23:58] A turnaround’s purpose is to identify and embrace alternatives, not invalidate the inspected belief.[1:29:06] The importance of introducing the somatic into the process; suggestions for difficulty with this step.[1:31:47] The role of the witness in this process.[1:33:54] Walking the line.[1:35:40] Welcoming the opportunity to learn from the experience, even if it’s not preferred.[1:37:35] Alternative tools for dysregulation in the moment.[1:39:31] Risks Diana and her husband Matt took to keep their relationship vital; who initiated the first difficult conversation.[1:45:11] How Diana figured out who she needed to be during this time.[1:47:11] Navigating decision points together as a couple.[1:49:42] Examples of commitments from The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership.[1:53:22] The Mind Jogger app and how Diana uses it with the commitments.[1:55:55] Assessing self-awareness in hiring interviews applied to non-job situations.[1:57:53] Books most gifted.[1:59:35] Parting thoughts.*For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast.For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsorsSign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday.For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books.Follow Tim:Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferrissYouTube: youtube.com/timferrissFacebook: facebook.com/timferriss LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferrissPast guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, Margaret Atwood, Mark Zuckerberg, Peter Thiel, Dr. Gabor Maté, Anne Lamott, Sarah Silverman, Dr. Andrew Huberman, and many more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_02
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00:04:46 Speaker_00
At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question?

00:04:53 Speaker_01
Now would've been a perfect time.

00:04:57 Speaker_03
What if I did the opposite?

00:04:58 Speaker_00
I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue of a metal endoskeleton.

00:05:09 Speaker_02
Hello boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferriss.

00:05:12 Speaker_02
Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to sit down with world class performers from every field imaginable to tease out the habits, routines, favorite books, and so on that you can apply and test in your own lives.

00:05:26 Speaker_02
This episode is a two for one, and that's because the podcast recently hit its 10th year anniversary, which is insane to think about, and passed 1 billion downloads.

00:05:35 Speaker_02
To celebrate, I've curated some of the best of the best, some of my favorites from more than 700 episodes over the last decade. I could not be more excited to give you these super combo episodes.

00:05:47 Speaker_02
And internally, we've been calling these the super combo episodes, because my goal is to encourage you to, yes, enjoy the household names, the super famous folks, but to also introduce you to lesser known people I consider stars.

00:06:01 Speaker_02
These are people who have transformed my life and I feel like they can do the same for many of you. Perhaps they got lost in a busy news cycle, perhaps you missed an episode.

00:06:11 Speaker_02
Just trust me on this one, we went to great pains to put these pairings together. And for the bios of all guests, you can find that and more at tim.blog slash combo. And now without further ado, please enjoy and thank you for listening.

00:06:29 Speaker_01
First up, Greg McKeown, the New York Times bestselling author of Essentialism, the Discipline Pursuit of Less, and Effortless, Make It Easier to Do What Matters Most, and host of the Greg McKeown Podcast.

00:06:44 Speaker_01
You can find Greg on Twitter at GregoryMcKeown.

00:06:49 Speaker_00
People don't do moderation well. I decided to go off sugar a year ago, almost a year ago, New Year's Eve, talking to somebody. I've been thinking about doing it for a while. They've been off sugar for 12 years. And I'm like, OK, you can do 12 years.

00:07:00 Speaker_00
I can do a year. I'm going to make this decision. If I've gone 95 percent off sugar, I'll know I'm out before I begin.

00:07:08 Speaker_00
Everything's an exception well that's you know that's amazing cake i'm gonna eat that i mean that's this is a holiday i'm gonna eat that is the weekend i'm going out with my wife i got it now she's got.

00:07:20 Speaker_00
Everything's an exception so i think there's a variety of things in life it's a much much easier to go. 100% than it is to go 95% because what you're doing is you're taking out the decision process. It's done. We are not doing sugar.

00:07:37 Speaker_00
Now, I don't have to think every time. And by the way, there's crazy amounts of sugar in this world. I don't have to think about it every time. The decision's already made.

00:07:46 Speaker_02
So first, I want to just mention one of the concepts in Essentialism that I really appreciated is trying to find the one decision that removes a thousand decisions, such as the elimination of sugar that you mentioned. as just one example.

00:07:59 Speaker_02
I will tell you where I struggle, and I think I'm better than maybe average Joe or Jane at saying no to things. I'm quite good, but one of the great ironies of writing a book

00:08:13 Speaker_02
called, say, Essentialism or the Four-Hour Workweek, is that if those concepts hit and the books do well, you suddenly have a flood, a torrent of inbound requests and all sorts of new categories of things to contend with.

00:08:28 Speaker_02
And I find myself struggling to say no to

00:08:34 Speaker_02
people who probably land on the spectrum of good acquaintance to reasonably good friend who ask for help with various things and There are certain things that I feel very comfortable saying no to like the book blurbs but I have hundreds of requests those aren't all from friends, but dozens certainly for

00:08:59 Speaker_02
promotion of their books on social. It's usually book-related because people want their books to sell.

00:09:03 Speaker_02
Being on the podcast, you name it, I feel like friends who do not fully think of the ramifications of their request, oftentimes when it's last minute, where they wouldn't ever go to the New York Times the day before they have something come out and ask for everything to be reshuffled for their benefit,

00:09:22 Speaker_02
That is what ends up happening to me on a fairly regular basis. So I think I allocate too much time to trying to explain myself to those people or placate those people in some way and I would love to hear your thoughts on

00:09:41 Speaker_02
best practices or heuristics related to that specifically. Because I don't view myself as a people pleaser, but nonetheless, with this particular subset of people, I do find it really challenging.

00:09:53 Speaker_02
And there are times when people I would like to maintain a good relationship with who come to me last minute for help that I cannot deliver without massively inconveniencing my entire team and reshuffling,

00:10:06 Speaker_02
get very pissed, in a way, or they take it very personally, and maybe that's okay. I tend to think that it is, and I'm going a little long here, but it's, I think, a challenge that a lot of people face. What are your thoughts?

00:10:19 Speaker_00
Well, let's just agree on the problem, first of all, because a CEO friend of mine once told me, he said, I take every time and resource estimate that's given to me now, and I multiply it by pi.

00:10:34 Speaker_00
So he's saying, I thought he was exaggerating at first, but he's saying people so massively underestimate everything. And there is another heuristic for this, right? It's called the planning fallacy.

00:10:46 Speaker_00
The planning fallacy is saying we as humans underestimate almost all the time how long things will take And we do that even with things we have done ourselves before. Driving from point A to point B takes us 15 minutes.

00:10:59 Speaker_00
But if we're in the middle of writing an email we will convince ourselves we can do it in five minutes this time.

00:11:06 Speaker_00
will get all green lights everything's going to work out somehow we don't five minutes of course we do it doesn't take that long take fifty minutes and we're late for the meeting but we want to call ourselves into it what you're describing I think as two pieces to it the first is this piece and the second is the relationship impact of how to handle this but what you're describing is a problem where somebody is really underestimating what their request is.

00:11:31 Speaker_00
They're saying in their head they're going this is a two-minute favor. Tim, it's not hard. All you have to do is put out a tweet. How hard can it be? Or whatever. And so in their head, their ask is very small.

00:11:47 Speaker_00
But the reality is that their ask is much bigger.

00:11:51 Speaker_02
They also don't think about the reputational risk or anything like that of endorsing something that I don't have time to read. For instance,

00:11:57 Speaker_00
Well that's exactly so.

00:11:58 Speaker_00
So I think that there is something around this again before we get to the relationship impact of maybe you already did it but of actually creating one page you got the email bounce back document having a page that says look this is the real cost.

00:12:16 Speaker_00
The total cost of ownership of me saying yes to this. And maybe there's even once it's created it could be used in a variety of ways. One is reactively right when the request comes in. OK I need you to read this first. I understand.

00:12:28 Speaker_00
But maybe there's a proactive approach which is like look I'm just putting this out there. This is what this actually costs. Because even what you just said reputational cost not the people aren't thinking about that.

00:12:39 Speaker_00
they're just thinking about getting their thing achieved.

00:12:41 Speaker_00
And so being able to try and calculate all of that, the total cost of ownership, I mean, that's what you have to do with the planning fallacy is we have to consider the total cost so that we don't start projects that we don't complete.

00:12:52 Speaker_00
In fact, there's a New York Times just ran a piece about exactly this that I'm aware of because it's quoting essentialism in trying to address the problem. But if all these projects we start, we don't finish. This is just a version of that problem.

00:13:06 Speaker_00
Maybe I'll be thoughtless. Maybe they don't think they're being thoughtless. They just think it's not a big deal for you, and they don't understand the full range of impact. So I think writing this out like almost like it's a recipe, this is the cost.

00:13:19 Speaker_00
And in that, I think in the helpful side of it, you could say, so in the future, if you want to be considered This is the process you would need to go through.

00:13:29 Speaker_00
So again, what's happening is that you've got to help other people's problems be their problem.

00:13:36 Speaker_02
Right.

00:13:37 Speaker_00
And there's a story that I came across with a book that I really like on this principle, which is, I think it's a true story.

00:13:43 Speaker_00
Can't quite remember now, but it's, um, but Dr. Cloud, he's talking about meeting with a couple, a husband and wife, parents, and they come to see him and they say, um, they say, look, you know, our son, we have so many problems with our son.

00:13:56 Speaker_00
He's on drugs, he's drinking all the time. He's living back at home with us now. I mean, he's just not got a job. Everything is just such a mess for us. It's just so concerning. He says, OK, well, I understand. Where is he, though?

00:14:08 Speaker_00
You have an appointment here to deal with this. Where is your son? They said, well, you know, he doesn't really see that he has a problem. And Dr. Patterson says, well, I think he's right.

00:14:18 Speaker_00
And what would you mean that he's right when you just described all the problems he said no he says listen he says if you look outside your window in the morning.

00:14:28 Speaker_00
And your sprinkler head on your lawn is faulty and it's spring on your neighbor's grass. And your neighbor's grass is green and your grass is dying who has the problem. You've got the problem, right? Because your grass is dying.

00:14:46 Speaker_00
Your neighbor doesn't have a problem. Their grass is fine. Your son doesn't have a problem because he's comfortable at home with you. He gets to do whatever he wants. He's looked after. Life is fine. He doesn't have a problem. You have a problem.

00:14:59 Speaker_00
And your job now is to help your son to have a problem. Let your son have his problem.

00:15:11 Speaker_00
You've been well intended but you got it all wrong you've got to let him own it if he doesn't have a problem if everything's taking care of him he can't move forward he can't get better.

00:15:22 Speaker_00
And so now obviously it's a bit strong to use that example with the example that you led this conversation with but it is a similar principle.

00:15:30 Speaker_00
is that there has to be a boundary and there has to be an education of going, you've made this my problem right now. Let me just lay this out so that you can own the problem, so in the future we can do this perhaps in a better way.

00:15:43 Speaker_02
Yeah, it makes perfect sense. I was told something not too terribly long ago, maybe two years ago, which was along the lines of,

00:15:50 Speaker_02
a line you could use with such people, although you'd probably have to dress it up a little bit, which is, you know, your lack of planning does not constitute my emergency.

00:16:00 Speaker_02
Which is, I suppose, in theory makes a lot of sense, but it sometimes falls by the wayside in practice due to fear of social repercussions, which we can get to in a second. I mean, I've had some awful experiences, and I don't want to turn this into

00:16:14 Speaker_02
a 100% Tim Ferriss therapy session, but just so people know, for those people out there who may be like, oh yeah, that Tim Ferriss, he never agreed to X, or whatever it is.

00:16:23 Speaker_02
I've had instances where journalists from mainstream publications have reached out for book blurbs or help with their own projects.

00:16:30 Speaker_02
I've very politely declined because I've been unable to help them in the capacity they required, and they've gone on to write hit pieces or hatchet pieces or slam pieces about me out of spite. And it's like, that kind of shit happens.

00:16:44 Speaker_02
So I think I'm a little once bitten, twice shy from a lot of those experiences. But ultimately, does any of that prevent me from doing the essential project that we discussed? Not really.

00:16:59 Speaker_00
That right there is a course is exactly the point you know one can say let's take the opposite argument for a moment and i'll just play non essential list of the conversation which is yes ten.

00:17:11 Speaker_00
You getting it wrong you're thinking about yourself too much.

00:17:15 Speaker_00
And every single request that someone from media or any friend or any acquaintance that anything that they want from you, you should be saying yes, because you know, you got helped by lots of people.

00:17:30 Speaker_00
Therefore, you're under total obligation to do it for everybody else. And you've got this wrong. So, is that argument right, Tim? Is it really right? It could be right. Is it right?

00:17:39 Speaker_02
I don't think it's right, and even if it were right, it's not sustainable. Right?

00:17:43 Speaker_00
Even if... Yeah, but if something's not sustainable, that's, like, foundationally clear that it can't be right. Because, like, by definition, if something's not sustainable, it will not continue. It cannot continue. Right.

00:17:57 Speaker_00
So what you just said, which is awesome, is, like, it's correct, other than it's impossible.

00:18:03 Speaker_02
Yeah, right, right, right.

00:18:04 Speaker_00
But you've just done a favor, which is that you've helped us to understand the basic foundational error with non-essentialism. Like the problem with non-essentialism is that it's the only problem happens to be a lie.

00:18:19 Speaker_00
It's just got that inconvenience associated with it. You can't actually do everything. Can you imagine how many books were being sent to Oprah at the height of the Oprah show and everything? Just insane.

00:18:32 Speaker_00
The number of warehouses full had to be warehouses full of going that way. And she had to get somehow, we assume she appeared to get to a level of peace with going, look, there's no way I can even touch any of that stuff.

00:18:45 Speaker_00
I've got to be true to this voice within me clarity about what my mission is my essential mission and not all of this other stuff it's not being unhelpful to the world.

00:18:59 Speaker_00
Are you to say no to something that's less important is not being unhelpful or selfish in the world. That i don't buy that your obligation is to the highest point of contribution you can make what i think happens a lot is that people get caught up.

00:19:17 Speaker_00
In the idea that. Can i do this thing it's like they pretend there's nothing else going on in their life the request comes in and they go can i do this. Yes i can do this i know how to do this i can make this happen and that's not life.

00:19:31 Speaker_00
That's not essential junk that's just rubbish the question is if i do this thing what doesn't get done.

00:19:38 Speaker_00
What else gets pushed out now i'm not saying don't be helped the people that come requesting things that can be absolutely ways of helping people i want to help people but if it's at the cost of.

00:19:49 Speaker_00
Something that's actually more important that makes a higher contribution we have a obligation not to do it.

00:19:55 Speaker_00
There's one more piece here which is important which is that you don't want to hurt these relationships and that's where the concern really comes from.

00:20:01 Speaker_00
So the question is how can you deal with this in a way that minimizes the damage to you through some media outlet stuff doing some hit piece or help people understand the context behind it. And I think that still comes back to at least.

00:20:17 Speaker_00
For yourself writing this all out. This is what I am trying to do and why it matters. I mean, in a way, it's having the conversation we've just had, but written out so that it can be expressed again and again and again.

00:20:32 Speaker_00
The why behind this answer, the why, is the thing that we miss out on. So let's in fact move to step three.

00:20:39 Speaker_00
So step one was what is essential, step two is what is non-essential, and step three is how do you create a system that makes executing what's essential as effortless as possible.

00:20:49 Speaker_00
It's a perfect way to get there at this point because having this written out document, I mean, how you'll use it is, I'm not sure yet about that in my own head, but if you have it clearly written out, this is what I'm doing, this is why, this is the cost of disrupting that, this is what it does, this is who will lose out if I don't stay focused on this now.

00:21:11 Speaker_00
All of that becomes like a communication core for yourself, a place to pivot to. When the request comes in and you can change everything today to make that possible and you go hold up.

00:21:23 Speaker_00
Let's go back to the document my assistant was away for a little while. Couple weeks and the amount of damage i managed to do in those couple weeks.

00:21:34 Speaker_00
Yeah the number of things i managed to commit to actually she's gone for a month i'm remembering now it's the honeymoon and she comes back.

00:21:42 Speaker_00
I was very positive I wasn't saying I messed everything up I said let me tell you all the things that happened in the month you've gone and it was just kind of a little silence at the end of it all because she's like she didn't say it but this is what's in the silence it's like.

00:21:55 Speaker_00
What's wrong with you? How are you thinking that you can take on all of those projects and all of those ideas? You know, like you aren't thinking fully about the cost of doing all those things. And she was dead right.

00:22:08 Speaker_00
And what grew out of that is we came up with three rules of things that I would and wouldn't do. And I'll give one of the rules was no personalization. I don't do any personalization.

00:22:21 Speaker_00
So if I'm doing you know it's workshops whatever I'll listen I'll understand what the company of the client of the conference needs but I'm not going to redo rethink rechange not changing the slides I'm not changing that you know the subtle things you can do in the moment but I'm not redoing stuff.

00:22:38 Speaker_00
Because if you personalize everything as I want to do, it's like you're rewriting a book every time. I mean, you have to rethink everything. And so that was one rule. And we had two other rules. And those are so helpful.

00:22:50 Speaker_02
Are you willing to share the other two rules?

00:22:52 Speaker_00
I should know what they are, right? If I say there's three rules and they were really useful to me.

00:22:58 Speaker_02
If they come up, they come up. We can also wait for them to surface.

00:23:02 Speaker_00
Yeah. So actually one was, Don't overcorrect it based on a negative feedback. That's a little more vulnerable to share that one, but I think everybody suffers with that. That's why, you know, which is most person's most universal.

00:23:17 Speaker_00
So we do an event, do a conference, gets good feedback. One of the people, you know, in the comments says X. And I think he's absolutely right. That is a valid criticism. Let's change it.

00:23:29 Speaker_00
Let's redo how we're doing this to address that concern it's the same sort of thing it's what is overreacting to it and frankly when you overreact to this kind of feedback.

00:23:39 Speaker_00
You really cause a problem for other people giving feedback and I in hindsight can see how that's been in my life right somebody's trying to be helpful trying to be honest to giving the feedback and I'm multiplying the effect of it so that was number two.

00:23:52 Speaker_00
And I think number three might have been something like. It was like either no new projects like beyond what we'd identified like we've already identified a couple of really big things I want to go after it's like no new projects outside of that.

00:24:07 Speaker_00
It might have been specifically no workshop business, which is there's always a demand for it with essentialism. There's always been interest in it. I always feel an obligation because one, there's a need. People are interested.

00:24:21 Speaker_00
And two, just I think there's a full business here and it could easily be or have been successful business. And those things keep pulling me into it. And I just, whenever I start working on it,

00:24:34 Speaker_00
I'm like, you've been at a supermarket, you see a kid on the floor, not throwing a tantrum, they're just lying on the floor, like legs spread out, arms spread out, they're just like, they have no energy to even get up off the floor.

00:24:49 Speaker_00
This is how much passion they feel for being in the supermarket on this day. They're just like, nothing here is interesting. Not one part of me wants to be getting up and doing this. That's how I feel in that business. It's just not worth it.

00:25:03 Speaker_00
It's not what I'm supposed to be doing. And my assistant has had to hear me say that in one way or another so many times. Okay, I know I should do this. Okay, let's do it. Oh yeah, we're gonna make it happen.

00:25:20 Speaker_00
And finally, he's just like, look, there's no part of you that wants to do this. Why are you doing this? And so we merged. I think those are the three rules we got there.

00:25:28 Speaker_02
Could you perhaps elaborate on what the personal quarterly offsite is?

00:25:35 Speaker_00
It's creating space for you to actually think long-term really matters. In the greater scheme of things I mean it's the same as any executive team.

00:25:48 Speaker_00
They have a quarterly off site annual off site why do they do it because they know if they don't they're gonna get buried in. Reacting to.

00:25:55 Speaker_00
Proximate issues instead of seeing strategically where they want to be headed and what trade offs they need to make in order to get there. It's just the same for. The individual level. My wife and I- started doing. Quarterly off sites.

00:26:10 Speaker_00
Two three years ago.

00:26:12 Speaker_00
In fact one of the things i did to try and correct the system to make sure we forward through is i did it where we had a few people come together and i was just leading the process but underneath it one of the important intense of it was so that i could actually.

00:26:26 Speaker_00
have a full day once every quarter you know away from everything else and to think about the long term goals and out of that process for us what are you doing on that in that process you you're saying okay what's happened over the last.

00:26:43 Speaker_00
Big picture you can say okay what's happened in my life what's the long term perspective here where am I where where have I been what's been going on so you're trying to get a clear view of.

00:26:55 Speaker_00
Your life what's been going on with it and then you can going forward long term perspective what would i like to be achieved what feels important again it's not just success. Set it's not just goal setting you to set the wrong goals.

00:27:09 Speaker_00
It's what's essential to me what it feels like my mission to pursue and I remember in that very first official session that we did and she was going to the process and identified a couple of things that were really important and I could tell they were.

00:27:25 Speaker_00
They had been within her but they just came to us the surface what was the sound funny to people but it was like horses horses like that's a weird thing to say that's not what you expect me to say she said.

00:27:39 Speaker_00
I just had this vision of having a place with horses. And it's not necessarily even that we would own the horses. It wasn't even necessarily that. And we don't have any horse background. It's not like we're horse people. Nothing like that.

00:27:55 Speaker_00
But it was a sense of if we were to achieve what that means, our children would grow up in a certain kind of environment. It was like a symbol. of a certain type of childhood and our children were at the time what sort of in the golden years.

00:28:14 Speaker_00
Which means the years before they're driving and after they're out of diapers and so it's like a magical period because you can do things you can make memories together you can do it and we weren't living in a place time we're in the middle of silicon valley which is terrific and lots of ways but it's not not gonna end up with horses right you have to think differently.

00:28:32 Speaker_00
And that single insight in that court we off site shifted a whole sense of intent and we realized if we want to do this while our children are still in this golden years we gonna have to move sooner rather than later.

00:28:46 Speaker_00
To be able to achieve this dream otherwise we're gonna achieve it after at least the eldest is out of the house and then what was the point.

00:28:54 Speaker_00
And so it was an insight strategic insight that has had profound influence on a you know it's a one decision that makes a thousand is a whole series of things we have to do to put in process to be prepared to organize it find such a place and so on and it took a while to do it.

00:29:10 Speaker_00
But it took a couple of years maybe maybe as much as that now we live in a community that you're required to have space for horses you don't have to have them you have to have space for them and that single criteria again makes a lot of other.

00:29:24 Speaker_00
influences change, right? You're going to be around a lot of nature. You're going to be even the kind of people in some ways that you're around, a certain value system that they care about and all those kinds of things.

00:29:35 Speaker_00
And so that's sort of a personal example of why to hold personal quarterly offsites. It shifts the whole direction you're going in. It tilts and bends your narrative as you go forward.

00:29:49 Speaker_02
Do you have any recommendations for other format best practices or any best practices for personal off-sites? Is it an afternoon? Is it a day? Is it two days? Is it in your living room? Is it off-site?

00:30:03 Speaker_00
Okay, I think here's what I think. I think it's off-site. It's in nature or thereabouts. It's somewhere that's quiet,

00:30:12 Speaker_00
Uninterrupted i know some people i've never done this but i know someone who has a second phone and the second phone is like one of these little credit card sized phones and only two people in the world i have the number to this phone and so when they go it means they can be reached for emergency but that's it.

00:30:28 Speaker_00
I just gone so that they can have another trip to space which is very hard to have these days do you want to be in an uninterrupted environment you want to not have. Text email and all of that available.

00:30:40 Speaker_00
I recommend you either do it on your own maybe with one of the person you know what design partner you can really go through the process i think that the longer the perspective is the better.

00:30:51 Speaker_00
When i was referring to we actually started prior to our life. Who started it great grandparents in fact great grandparents parents your own life and then going forward.

00:31:02 Speaker_00
to the end of your life, your kids, grandkids, great grandchildren, or if you don't have children, it's just the people that you would influence generations from now.

00:31:09 Speaker_00
And it's that kind of huge vision, that kind of level of perspective that helps to draw up within you an unexpected insight, something that you already know, but somehow is being buried because you're thinking about life in just sort of reactive ways.

00:31:24 Speaker_00
The whole idea is to create space to be able to discern that voice We will have lots of names for it, right?

00:31:34 Speaker_00
But we'll just the voice, your own conscience, your own sense of direction, and to be able to listen to that, so that you can discern again, between all these good things, all these different pools and so on. And really what you came here to do.

00:31:50 Speaker_00
And that's the point of it.

00:31:55 Speaker_02
Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront. There is a lot happening in the US and global economies right now, a lot. That's an understatement. Are we in a recession?

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00:33:07 Speaker_01
And now, Diana Chapman, co-founder of the Conscious Leadership Group and co-author of The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership. Find Diana at conscious.is. Diana, welcome to the show.

00:33:24 Speaker_02
So nice to see you.

00:33:25 Speaker_03
Oh, thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here.

00:33:28 Speaker_02
So I thought I would just establish some bona fides right off the bat, and then we're gonna do a little chronological shuffling. So first, I want to read a quote from the team portion of the website. So under your name at conscious.is,

00:33:47 Speaker_02
There's a quote from Dustin Moskovitz. Now, for those who don't know who Dustin is, Dustin is co-founder of Asana. Prior to that, he was co-founder of Facebook.

00:33:57 Speaker_02
In 2011, he was, at least at the time, the youngest self-made billionaire in the history of the planet, as far as I know.

00:34:06 Speaker_02
And here's the quote quote working with diana has dramatically changed the way i react to challenges and stress in my life preserving my energy to direct towards more constructive pursuits as a coach she has a gift for guiding me through introspection on the stories i create about events and people in a structured way that inevitably leads to perspective shifts.

00:34:24 Speaker_02
We can't control the fact that bad things are gonna happen but how we react to those events is what really matters. and that we can learn to control.

00:34:32 Speaker_02
When we have the right attitude and resourcing, adversity becomes strictly an opportunity to learn and grow." Okay. So this is the kind of quote that a lot of folks would kill for, maybe die for, certainly amputate a few fingers for.

00:34:45 Speaker_02
Before we dig into all sorts of juicy bits that we could pull out of that quote as a jumping off point, I want to go back to 1997. So I did not expect to find this. I didn't expect to find anything in particular, but this is what I found.

00:35:01 Speaker_02
This is on Criteo.com. In 1997, Diana Chapman was a stay-at-home mom teaching scrapbooking in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Quote, as mainstream a life as they come, end quote, she says. I didn't know any of this.

00:35:15 Speaker_02
So number one, you can't believe everything you read on the internet. So is this true? And then assuming some aspect of it is true, could you tell us about the gift from your brother-in-law around that time?

00:35:29 Speaker_03
Yeah, so it is true. I was the quintessential stay-at-home mom. All things being with my kids, being part of the school, you know, head of the PTA, all that good stuff.

00:35:42 Speaker_03
And I was, though, very interested in personal development, spirituality, human consciousness, that was always in the background. But I was very devoted to my children. I was teaching scrapbooking to other moms. I mean, I was so cute. I was really cute.

00:36:00 Speaker_03
And my brother-in-law was a top CEO in the country. And he was very, very devoted to personal development. And he was a connoisseur of finding great coaches. And I think the truth was that he and my sister-in-law were concerned about my marriage.

00:36:17 Speaker_03
and wondered if we were going to make it. And so they recommended that we go out to California and take a training with Gay and Kathleen Hendricks of the Hendricks Institute. And so actually they gave us five grand.

00:36:30 Speaker_03
He said, you can do whatever you want with the money, but I'm going to recommend you go out to California. So I joyfully could not wait to go. I didn't know anything about them, but he said, they're the best.

00:36:42 Speaker_03
So off we went and it was a profoundly life-changing week. And I thought to myself, why am I just learning these tools, and I'm gonna devote the rest of my life making sure people get access to them, and that's what I've done.

00:36:56 Speaker_02
What did you feel or experience or what changes did you observe that led you to have such a strong reaction?

00:37:08 Speaker_03
First of all, I learned about this thing called the drama triangle. which many people out there may have heard about. But I realized my whole life is running around on this drama triangle.

00:37:19 Speaker_03
And the drama triangle was created by Stephen Cartman back in the 70s. And he defined ways in which human beings get caught in victimhood that create reactivity. And I realized I'm on the triangle most of the time.

00:37:33 Speaker_03
And there is a big cost to me and my people when I'm on a drama triangle. And so that was the wake up call for me. And then I just, spent every day since looking for all the tools I can for how to keep myself out of that triangle as much as possible.

00:37:49 Speaker_02
Since you mentioned it, let's just jump right into the drama triangle. Could you give us an overview of what it is and how you might use it?

00:38:00 Speaker_03
Okay. So Cartman says, Many of us got trained to live in a state of victimhood and there are three unique flavors of victimhood in the drama triangle.

00:38:10 Speaker_03
We call them bases So the first base is the pure victim and the pure victim, you know, it's so hard here. I'm trying I don't know.

00:38:19 Speaker_03
It's just any kind of a Oh help, you know, it's got this very disempowered feeling And it's somehow like they've got the power somebody else has it not me and i'm very at the effect of things

00:38:32 Speaker_03
So I could be at the effect of my bank account, at the effect of this email that just came in, at the effect of the traffic, at the effect of the new policy on going back to work, at the effect of COVID. All those things are forms of being a victim.

00:38:47 Speaker_03
Then the next role in the drama triangle is the villain, and the villain's job is to blame. So I can blame me.

00:38:53 Speaker_03
God, I should have known that, or I should have been more prepared, or Annie should have overheard on me, or I'm not smart enough, or I can't count on myself. That's all. villaining toward myself, or we can villain toward another.

00:39:05 Speaker_03
You know, you, you're the reason why I'm not having as much fun as I could be having, or we could be a villain to a group of people, which is very popular in our culture, so we all know who's screwing it up for the rest of us.

00:39:17 Speaker_03
You know, it's that group over there, and everybody's pointing to particular groups who are the bad guys. So villain's very popular because it gets our adrenaline really kicking.

00:39:27 Speaker_02
I think it's actually in the terms of service on Twitter that you have to play that role when you use the service. Anyway, just a side note.

00:39:35 Speaker_03
Right, right. Who's screwing it up? Who's wrong? Yeah, you don't know. You're wrong. I'm right. And so the last role in the drama triangle is the hero. It's also called the reliever or the rescuer. And the hero's job is to seek temporary relief. So

00:39:54 Speaker_03
oh my god i had such a hard day today at work let me come home i'm gonna drink my alcohol or do my gaming or get lost in netflix or whatever i'm gonna do to give myself some temporary relief and it works but i gotta do it again tomorrow because tomorrow i'm gonna come home potentially burn out again and i'm gonna have to do the same pattern so heroine is temporary relief over and over again so i can hero myself i could hero another you know oh you look like you're struggling at work and let me take over some of your

00:40:23 Speaker_03
work that you're doing. I could do that from a place of real presence.

00:40:27 Speaker_03
But when I'm in hero doing it, I'm actually creating some codependence where I keep needing you to not be able to handle your work so I can keep helping and then I'll resent you over time. And then we can hero them.

00:40:38 Speaker_03
You know, there's lots of philanthropies, especially in the past.

00:40:41 Speaker_03
They're getting better at this now where we just throw a bunch of money at a population and then next year they have all the same issues and they need more money and nothing ever really changes. So The key thing is temporary relief.

00:40:52 Speaker_03
So we all know the story about you can give the man a fish every night or you could teach him to fish for himself. So the hero gives the man the fish night after night after night.

00:41:02 Speaker_03
And if you're off the drama triangle, you shift to a place where you see people as empowered and the hero ask good questions to help people get more effective around them.

00:41:13 Speaker_02
So my next question, I wanna share an observation from my rereading of the book, and then the next question, just to plant the seed, is I'm gonna ask you why it's called the Drama Triangle, what drama actually means here.

00:41:28 Speaker_02
But in my reread, which I'm in the middle of right now, of The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, which was recommended to me by Dustin, and I think it was also recommended in my last book, In Tribe of Mentors, by Dustin,

00:41:42 Speaker_02
There's a section that I needed to reread which was related to the drama triangle and it pointed out that the villain could take the form of someone in a meeting who to try to resolve conflict, or maybe not resolve, to try to

00:42:00 Speaker_02
Minimize conflict always takes the blame like eventually at the end of the meeting they just say you know what it's my fault i should have done this this this this and this and it's easy at least for me to conflate. Radical responsibility with.

00:42:17 Speaker_02
overly blaming myself for everything. And I don't actually have a great way to approach navigating, discerning those two for me, if that makes any sense.

00:42:31 Speaker_02
So we could try to unpack that, or we could jump to why it's called the drama triangle, but I'll let you choose the direction.

00:42:37 Speaker_03
Well, let me do both. So the reason why it's called the drama triangle is because the whole triangle is set up for a na-na-na. It's, I'm right, you're wrong, you're to blame, or I'm to blame.

00:42:48 Speaker_03
It's not asking everybody to really take 100% responsibility for how they're co-creating experiences. So if I'm in the drama triangle, the villain, if I'm taking on, I'm more responsible,

00:43:02 Speaker_03
What happens is I'll say, oh, I'm here at the meeting, you guys, and look, it's my fault. I'll take some of your responsibility and take it all on me. And so there is a place to say, hey, I have a part in how I've co-created this.

00:43:15 Speaker_03
Let me tell you my part. That would be me taking my hundred percent. I would also know that everybody else has a part to play too. So I'm not taking on their responsibility as well. That's the difference between

00:43:30 Speaker_03
villain and somebody who's just simply acknowledging I have a role to play here.

00:43:35 Speaker_02
Thank you. So we were chatting before we started recording, and you and I have spoken quite a few times before. We've met before, spent time together. And you asked me why I invited you on to the podcast. And there were a number of answers I gave.

00:43:52 Speaker_02
One of them was related to kinesthetic awareness, or what our mutual friend and your business partner, Jim Detmer, have called, at least in his notes to me, for this conversation. This may be your term for all I know, BQ.

00:44:08 Speaker_02
So like IQ, EQ, but body intelligence. And I feel like you're very well calibrated for this. And when we spoke Maybe a year and a half ago, two years ago, I was working on this no book, you might recall.

00:44:26 Speaker_02
And then as I kept working on it and kept working on it, I kept coming up with great reasons to say no to the entire book, which was very meta, and I ended up stopping. But we spoke a lot about the whole body yes.

00:44:41 Speaker_02
And I would love to maybe use that as a wedge to start the conversation because I found this so incredibly helpful when I am certainly prone to over intellectualizing everything into some extremely complicated matrix or spreadsheet or God knows what.

00:45:00 Speaker_02
So could you lead us into that in whatever way makes sense?

00:45:04 Speaker_03
Sure. The idea is that we have these different centers of intelligence. So we have our head, our heart, our gut, and IQ, EQ, BQ are some of the ways we might be describing those things these days.

00:45:19 Speaker_03
So body intelligence is a recognition that I have an instinctual awareness that is known by my sensations, known by how the body feels, and that

00:45:35 Speaker_03
There's a lot actually there that if we start to drop into the body and pay attention It's got a lot of guidance for us as does our emotions as does our intellect And so I do have a ton of access to my body intelligence I think it's what I lead with in my own getting clarity about which directions to go in my life And i've put a lot of attention on it.

00:45:58 Speaker_03
So it's very palpable to me. My body screams often, no, don't do that, even though my intellect might have an understanding of why.

00:46:07 Speaker_02
Let's, if you wouldn't mind, walk people through how they might understand and use the whole body, yes? Because for me, When something is screaming, I'm decent at paying attention, but it's not always a scream. Oftentimes, it is a little more nuanced.

00:46:27 Speaker_02
Could you walk people through the whole body ES and what the flight checklist looks like?

00:46:36 Speaker_03
have people, if we wanted to, go through an experience of starting to feel what their whole body yes and no's feels like.

00:46:42 Speaker_02
Great. Yeah, let's do that. Let's do that.

00:46:43 Speaker_03
Should we do that? It's very experiential, so it'll take about 10 minutes and I'll have people, if they're listening, I'd recommend they close their eyes.

00:46:51 Speaker_02
Wonderful. Does that work? We have all the time in the world. This isn't morning television.

00:46:56 Speaker_03
Okay. So the idea is that your body knows when there's a no, when there's a yes, and when there's a, what I'm going to call a subtle no. And we say anything other than a whole body yes is a no.

00:47:07 Speaker_03
And to your point, it's easy to hear those screaming no's, but not so easy to hear the subtle no. For example, someone contacted our organization the other day and he wanted to talk.

00:47:18 Speaker_03
And it wasn't clear to me whether he was trying to sell us something or whether he genuinely had clients that he wanted to connect us with. And even in my, I had suspicions that it wasn't as

00:47:31 Speaker_03
Clean as he was suggesting and I asked for clarification and his clarification still I couldn't really tell but My body did know and I felt this flat feeling in my body when I thought about having the call And unfortunately my head said well, maybe you're not sure so let's have the call and indeed it was a sales call and it was not a good use of my time and I quickly hung up and

00:47:58 Speaker_03
that was a time in which i skipped over my no because it was very subtle and my intellect started to get worried like what if i'm missing something and you know what if you don't know.

00:48:09 Speaker_03
So i use this all the time and i'm still learning as i did just last week to pay attention to the intelligences that are outside of just my intellect and so for you all if you want to learn more about this what i'd like you to do is close your eyes and

00:48:25 Speaker_03
I'd like you to bring to mind an experience from the past that was deeply valuable to you. It was something that was nurturing. It was something you would gratefully repeat that scene again. It could be a time when you were celebrated.

00:48:43 Speaker_03
It could be a time when you were in a highly creative state that made something valuable. It could be a time when you were in nature feeling deeply centered.

00:48:54 Speaker_03
And so I'd like you to go back into that scene as best you can and see the images of that scene and hear the sounds.

00:49:05 Speaker_04
And as you're in that scene, I want you to start to pay attention to the body and see if you can notice just simply how the body is vibrating right now. When you imagine yourself in that scene,

00:49:24 Speaker_04
seeing those images, hearing the sounds, how does your body vibrate?

00:49:31 Speaker_03
Is there a particular direction in which energy is flowing through the body? Now some of you might go, Diane, I'm not feeling anything here. That's fine. Just imagine if you were feeling something.

00:49:44 Speaker_03
Would it be okay that it might feel like pretend, just for now?

00:49:51 Speaker_04
Is there a certain temperature that you notice in the body.

00:49:57 Speaker_03
For some people, they might feel very specific sensations. It might feel like shapes inside the body.

00:50:04 Speaker_04
And some people might be auditory and hear tones or see visuals in their mind's eye. What you're doing here is getting a map of what does a whole body yes feel like.

00:50:24 Speaker_03
strolling around inside of the body feeling what you're feeling no right or wrong answers here and everybody's so unique we all have our own different ways we feel it for me my body gets warm there's a uprising of energy it flows up for me there's a push in the flow for me but yours will be what it is and so then i'd like you to take one last

00:50:53 Speaker_03
like a memory, take a memory shot of this so you can remember what this feels like. And then I'd like you to shake it off and let it go. And then I want you to think of a scene in the past that you don't want to repeat.

00:51:08 Speaker_03
And I don't recommend finding something traumatizing. Find something that you really didn't feel like was a good use of your time, didn't serve you, you don't want to repeat it ever again, or you prefer not to.

00:51:23 Speaker_04
If you can bring that image to mind and again, see the visuals of that memory and hear the sounds. And I want you to notice what happens now in the body. Is there a different way that body's vibrating?

00:51:48 Speaker_04
How is the direction of energy flowing or not flowing in this version? Is there a difference in temperature?

00:51:56 Speaker_03
Any other significant sensations or shapes you feel in or on the body? And again, tones in the ears or visuals in your mind's eye may also be included.

00:52:10 Speaker_04
And you're getting a map for what? No. This is a big no.

00:52:19 Speaker_03
Uh-uh. I don't want this. I don't think this is going to serve me.

00:52:25 Speaker_04
Just mapping the territory in the body for what does this feel like? And take one last picture of that and shake that one off.

00:52:41 Speaker_03
And then we've got one more to do, and this is the subtle no. This is similar to what I was just describing earlier of taking a meeting. You know, it didn't kill me to take the meeting. It didn't hurt.

00:52:52 Speaker_03
Lasted 10 minutes and I got off the phone, but I don't, It wasn't a yes, it wasn't an alive experience for me. So this is called a subtle no.

00:53:01 Speaker_03
So I want you to think back, everybody's got in the last two to four weeks, something that's happened in which it was a eh, wasn't bad, wasn't good, eh.

00:53:10 Speaker_04
So if you can come back and see that scene in your mind's eye and hear those sounds, And you're gonna check and see what's a subtle no feel like for you. How do you experience that scene? What do you notice in the body? How does it vibrate here?

00:53:37 Speaker_04
How does energy flow or not flow? Is there a difference in temperature? What parts of the body light up, sensations? and tones or visuals as well.

00:53:56 Speaker_03
Trying on here, and again, if you don't notice much, that's okay. Just imagine if you did notice, what would you notice?

00:54:05 Speaker_04
And this is your map for what a subtle no feels like.

00:54:14 Speaker_03
And you want to remember this feeling so that the next time somebody says, hey, you want to go out to lunch, or could you meet me to talk about ABC, that if you feel this, likely it's an invitation for you to try no.

00:54:28 Speaker_03
So you can shake that one off, and then we'll bring our attention back to the ongoing conversation. How was that for you, Tim?

00:54:38 Speaker_02
It was a great exercise. It's been a long time since I've done an inventory like that. And I took notes, I took some notes, and I'll share a few things just in case this helps other people. I noticed that all three had different breathing patterns.

00:54:55 Speaker_02
The breathing was very different. Cadence and feeling. Nice. So that seemed to be a very clear variable. across the three and just give an example of the clear no.

00:55:15 Speaker_02
The strong no was frontal head tension, chest tightness, feeling hot, none of which exists in the yes state as an example.

00:55:27 Speaker_02
And then I thought of this subtle no, which I don't think I've spent much time on before, which is hilarious because of course it's probably where I need to spend the most time is assessing that. And I thought of this experience recently.

00:55:41 Speaker_02
It was the first example that came to mind because I really try not to say yes to things. But sometimes you say yes to things that seem like a yes and then you get into the experience and it's not a yes. The bill of lading was deceptive.

00:55:58 Speaker_02
And I ended up at this dinner that was kind of play fancy. I didn't expect it to be play fancy, but it was an expensive dinner and it just was not enjoyable food wasn't great and i didn't want to be there and i was thinking of this experience and.

00:56:17 Speaker_02
I noticed that in contrast to the strong yes and the strong no both of which have a certain degree of focus. I in the subtle know have a very, I wrote down shifty energy and fidgety, just like feeling unsettled.

00:56:38 Speaker_02
And that then I suppose becomes your landmark off in the distance where you can orient yourself with respect to decision making or continuing or not continuing with something. So I found this very,

00:56:55 Speaker_02
helpful, and I should also just mention that this has historically been a, what would we call it, development opportunity, aka weakness, growth opportunity, slash massive Achilles heel, this body awareness.

00:57:12 Speaker_02
I think we can spend a lot of time on it, we don't need to, but I learned to dissociate very effectively really early on in my life for a lot of reasons, and so it's getting reacquainted with feeling. has been a long process. And thank you for that.

00:57:30 Speaker_02
I found that very helpful. Could you help us connect this to how people would use this inventory?

00:57:39 Speaker_03
So I'd recommend starting out using it in really simple ways. So start with looking at a menu.

00:57:46 Speaker_03
And as you're looking at the menu, just notice, like, does that fidgety come in when you look at the sandwich, you know, versus the sandwich and see if you can start to see what yes feels like.

00:57:57 Speaker_03
Or you're driving back home and you've got a couple of different routes to take home. You know, try on, okay, I'm going to go this way and notice what happens in the body versus I go this way.

00:58:06 Speaker_03
So you're just going to make, make this a practice for things that don't have a lot of meaning that, you know, it's not a big deal. And then as you, you can also do it with time.

00:58:16 Speaker_03
Let's say you're thinking about gathering up with a group of friends and they say, what time? Try on like, okay, well, what if we met at five?

00:58:23 Speaker_03
And just notice what happens in the body when I try five and then five 30 and six and six 30, and just see if you've got like a place where your body starts to hum like, oh wow, six 30, that's where it really hit. And then let's choose six 30.

00:58:37 Speaker_03
So that's a, way to do it. And then what you'll notice is, at least for me, I really liked the results I kept creating in these simpler options. And then I just kept using it more and more.

00:58:50 Speaker_03
So with more important decisions, and then now, the biggest decisions, this is something I choose regularly, I, and I, I've learned to trust it so that, you know, I had a client who I thought was in trouble in another country. And

00:59:06 Speaker_03
I contacted the family and said, I think you need to go help this person. And they're like, you want us to leave and go check on this family member? And I said, my body was shaking with clarity about it. My head was like, I don't know.

00:59:22 Speaker_03
I'm not, I couldn't tell you for sure, but my body knew. And they went and it turned out it was a really, could have been a life saving moment that they went. And intellectually, I had some data,

00:59:35 Speaker_03
But my body was the one that really guided me to be aggressive in getting that person's support.

00:59:40 Speaker_02
Yeah, this has been really impactful for me, and it seems so simple, and on some levels it is, but very often it's the simple, valuable things that we neglect, perhaps, because we think they are simplistic, but that's not the same thing.

00:59:59 Speaker_02
And I think that it's common also for people who are very head-centered, intellect-focused, who have been rewarded for that, to just end up being a hammer looking for nails, basically. And I had a lot of trouble identifying what yes felt like.

01:00:20 Speaker_02
And I still do, if I'm being honest. There are times when it's super obvious when I'm just like the yes in all caps and like marquee lights and neon, yes, okay, fine.

01:00:29 Speaker_02
Then when it bashes me over the head with like awesomeness, I know what that feels like.

01:00:34 Speaker_02
But if it's, in some cases, a meeting or an investment or a person or a dinner with certain people, it's hard for me to identify what a full body yes feels like, but I know what it doesn't feel like.

01:00:49 Speaker_02
If I go from head to chest to gut, if there's any tension in one of those three, it's a no.

01:00:57 Speaker_03
Good, then I would say your yes is a void of those sensations. So let that be what it is. Let yourself go, that is a whole body yes. My whole body yes is a void of those no sensations. And that's enough. You don't need to make it any more than that.

01:01:16 Speaker_02
Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

01:01:18 Speaker_03
And it makes sense to me that you might not have the whole light up. Some people do have this zing that they feel is a yes, but some people don't. And so just trust your own version of it. So you'll just know, oh, my yes is

01:01:33 Speaker_03
just is without the reactive patterns I notice in my body when the no is here.

01:01:39 Speaker_02
Let's use that as a segue in the fact that I don't have the zing. I'm not sure that the fact I don't have this zing, and I do have it when it's again sort of an avalanche of spectacular goodness, but otherwise my yes response can be very muted.

01:01:56 Speaker_02
I do think that I have trained myself Sometimes in the name of stoicism i think often in the. Hope to protect myself from disappointment to not celebrate and i do think premature celebration of huge business deals and stuff can.

01:02:15 Speaker_02
Buy you in the ass and that's a good idea to temper expectations at the same time there's a cost. there's a very real cost to training yourself not to celebrate.

01:02:26 Speaker_02
And one of the notes that Jim, as in Jim Detmer for people who are listening, sent to me included, I asked him what your superpowers were, and he gave me a number of them, and one was,

01:02:40 Speaker_02
Play is a way to live life increase learnings deep in relationships and lead organizations diana is the best of anyone i have. Ever met at living a life of play in inviting others to play along so for those who don't know jim.

01:02:55 Speaker_02
Jim would not say something like this lightly. So could you please, this is something that I want to cultivate in myself, and I really am not sure of how to go about it. So I would love to explore this, and you can take that anywhere you would like.

01:03:16 Speaker_03
When you were talking earlier about not sure you know about that yes, you think maybe you'd like to have more of that, one thing I would say is

01:03:24 Speaker_03
I think yeses are very, they're about igniting our creative energy and our creative energy is very connected to our sexual energy. And so for me, yes feels very sexual. I feel turned on.

01:03:38 Speaker_03
And so I think there are a lot of people who put that away for good reasons along the way.

01:03:45 Speaker_03
And so one of the things that I think is important is for people to start coming back and tuning back into letting themselves be a sexual being, letting themselves have sensations that feel igniting.

01:03:57 Speaker_03
And that doesn't have to mean that you want to go have sex or do it. They're very different things. I know a lot of people are having sex without sexual feelings, so they're separate.

01:04:06 Speaker_03
But I want to invite people to feel how good you can feel in the body.

01:04:13 Speaker_02
How do you do that? I know that sounds silly, but it's like, how do you foster slash allow that? I'm not consciously, I don't have any Catholic guilt or anything that leads me to consciously throttle that.

01:04:28 Speaker_02
I don't have a voice in my head that says that's not okay. I feel like it's more, if it exists in me, it's more subconscious.

01:04:36 Speaker_03
Well, just in general, just see if you can find one place in the body that feels pleasurable. It doesn't have to necessarily be named sexual, but just where's the pleasure in the body?

01:04:47 Speaker_03
And it could just be a tiny little spot or you could feel something like for me right now There's like a tickle in my chest I feel some bubbly kind of champagne bubbles coming up through my spine Feels like it's coming up through floating out of the top of my head.

01:05:02 Speaker_03
I feel some warmth in my feet. It's pleasurable And so it's just starting to put your attention on pleasure itself and then

01:05:14 Speaker_03
keep attending to it keep giving your attention to it and then it starts spreading around and then all of a sudden there's this really wonderful like woohoo quality that's happening in the body and then for me that's part of then what ignites the play there's so much aliveness joy creative possibilities and then it's like okay what are we going to do with this and then how much fun could we have it's just sort of the

01:05:43 Speaker_03
Why do I swim in?

01:05:45 Speaker_02
Has it always been that way? Is this Diana out of the box or is it something that either you've trained more in yourself or that you've seen people train effectively, right, in terms of turning the tide?

01:06:00 Speaker_02
Because I'm sure you have a lot of clients, I have to imagine, who are doing therapy, coaching, medicine work, et cetera, and they're like, God, I just need more play. I just need more play. And it's like, okay, well, now what, right?

01:06:13 Speaker_03
Well, I might say, let's play with the fact that you need more play. Can we make that bigger? Oh, I need more play. Oh, God.

01:06:21 Speaker_03
I tend to say, let's exaggerate everything because that's one of the easiest, quickest forms of play is exaggerate where you're at. Make wherever you're at bigger.

01:06:31 Speaker_03
If it's like, I can't play, it's so hard for me to play, I go, okay, well, let's play with that. Make that bigger until all of a sudden now you're giggling because it seems funny, and then you just played. So exaggeration is one of my favorite ways.

01:06:44 Speaker_03
So when I am coaching people and they're in some place that they say they don't want to be in, I say, well, then let's make it bigger wherever you're at. And then it always pops them through.

01:06:58 Speaker_02
Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront.

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01:08:15 Speaker_02
That's Wealthfront.com slash Tim. Wealthfront will automate your investments for the long term and you can get started today at Wealthfront.com slash Tim. Loving pressure. Let's talk about loving pressure. That was a term that Jim sent over.

01:08:34 Speaker_02
Bringing loving pressure to relationships. She's a genius at bringing the right balance of pressure, kick you in the ass, and love, support, understanding, empathy. And as a result, she's a black belt in practicing candor.

01:08:48 Speaker_02
So this is something that has always struck me in our interactions. This is not gonna be a perfect segue, but I have to bring this up because who knows if what I wrote for the No Book will ever see the light of day.

01:08:58 Speaker_02
I hope it will, maybe in a blog post or an article at some point. But could you please describe the voicemail message that you had some years ago? Do you know the one I'm talking about?

01:09:10 Speaker_03
Yeah. It was something like, hi, you've reached Diana. I may or may not respond to this call, and I'm going to just listen to, if I feel called, I will, and if I don't, I won't.

01:09:28 Speaker_03
I'm going to listen in and decide whether I'll call you back and when I'll call you back. It was just basically saying, don't have any expectations.

01:09:37 Speaker_02
So your candor has really jumped out as this sort of defining characteristic of Diana for me. So that's sort of the end of this bullet that's in front of me, but How should people think of loving pressure?

01:09:56 Speaker_02
Because I find myself flip-flopping often between two polar extremes. This is especially noticeable in my intimate relationships where either I'm like the hard-ass

01:10:10 Speaker_02
Olympic coach kind of like the coach in the disney movie miracle if anyone seen that ice hockey or i am from my perspective extremely permissive and. overly supportive to the point of subjugating my own feelings.

01:10:30 Speaker_02
It's not entirely dishonest, but I'm kind of disavowing part of me to be really, really supportive.

01:10:39 Speaker_02
And this is especially true with my girlfriend, where there are times to, I've learned, I think this is important, there are times for me to listen to listen, for her to feel heard, and then there are times for me to listen

01:10:53 Speaker_02
to help with problem solving, and it's very good for me to clarify which she wants in advance. But how do you think about loving pressure and bringing that to relationships?

01:11:06 Speaker_03
Well, again, I think in order to do that well, you have to be connected to your head, your heart, and your gut. That's certainly been really clear to me that I have to be fully present to know then what's the balance of challenge and nurturing.

01:11:20 Speaker_03
So for example, I had a guy who called me recently who was wanting to know if we could work together, and he was very, very depressed. And I was asking him questions, and he was really stuck.

01:11:31 Speaker_03
And he had a lot of critical thoughts about himself, and he couldn't get motivated to do anything. And I asked him about therapy. He said, yeah, I've been in therapy for a year. And I said, OK, you need to fire your therapist.

01:11:43 Speaker_03
I said, uh, because you got a lot of stories in your head that you're believing and nobody's challenging you.

01:11:49 Speaker_03
And the guy stood up, like he sat up really straight and I felt him like pop out of some haze he was in, like the challenger so woke something in him.

01:11:59 Speaker_03
And so the story I always make up about that guy is he was just getting so nurtured, but nobody was bringing the challenge that could help him break out of the state he was in. And so, you know, I just,

01:12:11 Speaker_03
knew that because and i was thoughtful of from my own presence here of what do i need to say to this guy that he can hear i care about him but i also say cut it out because where you're how you're organizing yourself here isn't going to take you to this new place you want to go and he was really grateful and he said thank you i really hear you that i need to question these beliefs i'm holding so

01:12:33 Speaker_03
That's my practice over and over again, is being able to listen to my body.

01:12:37 Speaker_03
I was with another conversation the other day, and people were talking about their opinions about the world, and I just said, hey, I notice I'm contracting, my body's contracting as I hear you guys talking. And that's all I had to say.

01:12:48 Speaker_03
It was just, I'm just gonna report what's happening over here, and it was a form of challenge to them. And they went, wow, you know, you're right, we're really in some fear-based thinking here.

01:12:59 Speaker_03
my body helps just sometimes i just report i notice i'm bored or i notice i'm withdrawing or i notice i'm getting confused or i notice i'm contracting those are ways i might just express a little pressure by just revealing what's here and not making it mean anything but just saying here's what's happening maybe this is about something i don't know about yet but let me just tell you what's happening i don't think we do that enough with each other

01:13:24 Speaker_02
So let me ask a question about that example.

01:13:27 Speaker_02
So there are some folks talking about whatever they were talking about, and some kind of fear-based, or what they recognized as fear-based thinking in conversation, and you say, I'm noticing that I'm feeling contracted.

01:13:43 Speaker_02
I just want to let you guys know. Were these people, and they respond, they responded constructively.

01:13:51 Speaker_03
These are people I know well, and we play a similar game in which- So you've agreed to this type of interaction? Yes, I would not do this with just anybody.

01:14:01 Speaker_02
Okay, so what would you do if you're in a mixed group or with people who have not agreed or made the commitments, and we could talk more about the 15 commitments and commitments in general.

01:14:16 Speaker_02
But is there a way that you can give voice to that with people who perhaps don't have the same playbook in front of them?

01:14:24 Speaker_03
Sure. I might say something like, so what I hear is you believe you're right that XYZ is occurring. And that could be true. And I'm just wondering if you're open to another possibility that maybe it's not as true as you think.

01:14:38 Speaker_03
So I might just gently bring a little challenger of asking them to consider that there might be another option.

01:14:45 Speaker_03
That's another form of how we challenge each other, is questioning the stories we tell, because we're all just telling stories all the time. Or I might say, oh, I hadn't considered that perspective.

01:14:58 Speaker_03
I've been holding this perspective, and I might share my perspective. And it just depends on how well or not well I know the crowd that would help me be more thoughtful in how I might respond.

01:15:08 Speaker_02
When you're working with a client, and I'm coming back to the initial quote that I read from Dustin, so she has a gift as a coach, she meaning you, has a gift for guiding me through introspection on the stories I create about events and people in a structured way that inevitably leads to perspective shifts.

01:15:27 Speaker_02
Could you walk us through how you might do that with someone? For instance, this guy was depressed and he says, you know what? You're right. My therapist sucks. I'm being handled with kid gloves, but that's making me remain a kid.

01:15:40 Speaker_02
So I could use like a occasional slap in the face from someone who's very supportive and challenging. And you say, okay, great. From that point then, what do you do with those stories in this person?

01:15:54 Speaker_03
I'm a huge fan of Byron Katie and I really love her work. And I do the work with myself and I do the work with my clients. And I say, okay, is it true? Is it true this thing you believe? Can you absolutely know it's true?

01:16:10 Speaker_03
And you know, I'm wise enough now to know I can't absolutely know anything. And then what's it like when you do really believe you're right? And I help people find there's always some suffering.

01:16:22 Speaker_03
And then what would it be like if you just couldn't believe it? And people find, oh, that's nice. It feels good. And then, okay, great. Could we just go look at the opposite?

01:16:33 Speaker_03
You can keep your righteous stories, but can we also ask you to hold the opposites as at least as true so that the mind can get to neutral? And then something else gets to happen.

01:16:43 Speaker_02
And you're doing that with turnarounds of various types?

01:16:47 Speaker_03
All the time. I'm constantly asking clients to turnaround.

01:16:51 Speaker_02
Let's pick a hypothetical or real example just so people can get a flavor of this. Byron Katie, the work, I also have found really, really helpful in a number of cases. She's an unusual and powerful woman, to put it mildly.

01:17:12 Speaker_02
So there are times when people will interact, and I remember meeting her for the first time, and I was like, I don't know if I can do what she does.

01:17:20 Speaker_02
But when you actually work with the worksheets, and people can find this online, a lot of resources are available for free online from Byron Katie.

01:17:30 Speaker_02
Could you walk through, say, a belief, which I think she defines as a thought we take to be true, or something along those lines, an example of a belief and then how you would do turnarounds on that belief and walk somebody through that?

01:17:48 Speaker_03
Well, let's see if we can find something real, if you're willing to. See if we can find something that's irritated you lately.

01:17:55 Speaker_03
Something where it's kind of like maybe somebody did something that bugged you or you're upset about some policy out in the world or just any place where you notice you get a little triggered.

01:18:06 Speaker_02
This is more of a paradox of choice issue than anything else for me. Let me see.

01:18:12 Speaker_03
If not, I can find one. I always have judgment, so I can find something over here.

01:18:16 Speaker_02
Well, I'll tell you. My relationship will actually use one that relates to the client you mentioned. So I have had extended depressive episodes the majority of my life.

01:18:32 Speaker_02
And so I have a lot of fear around slipping into depressive episodes and have viewed that, whether it's now, whether it's a week from now, whether it's a year, whether it's five years from now, as inevitable, right? And scary and dangerous.

01:18:50 Speaker_02
So let's use that somehow.

01:18:52 Speaker_03
Okay, and it sounds like the judgment might be something like, I shouldn't slip into depression. for depressive episodes, is that right?

01:18:59 Speaker_02
Yeah, exactly. I shouldn't, it's dangerous. et cetera.

01:19:05 Speaker_03
Okay. So which one is it? Is I shouldn't or is it's dangerous? Cause it sounds like that one kind of lit up for you. It's dangerous if I go into a depressive episode.

01:19:14 Speaker_02
Yeah, that's sure.

01:19:15 Speaker_03
Is that it?

01:19:16 Speaker_02
That is. Yeah.

01:19:17 Speaker_03
Okay. It's dangerous if you go into a depressive episode. Is that true?

01:19:22 Speaker_02
I always struggle with the first two questions. The other ones I have an easier time with. Is it true? I think it's true. Yeah.

01:19:29 Speaker_03
I mean, most of the time when I have my judgments, I do think they're true in the beginning. But then I go, okay, Tim, can you really truly, I mean, absolutely know it's true?

01:19:40 Speaker_03
Like you'd put your life on the line that if you have a depressive, that it's dangerous if you go into a depressive episode.

01:19:46 Speaker_02
Well, you know, it's kind of tragically comic that you would use that phrasing. So here's what I can say. I can say for sure that it has been dangerous because I almost killed myself in college. Does that automatically mean that I will be

01:20:03 Speaker_02
at the precipice in that same way in the future? No, I can't say that with 100% certainty.

01:20:08 Speaker_03
Yes, you can't say that with 100% certainty. So we're just trying to get to, I can't know for sure. I mean, I didn't kill myself in the end where you're here, right? And we don't know if you would want to kill yourself in the future.

01:20:23 Speaker_03
So we're just going, I can't absolutely know for sure it's true. So the first question is, is it true? Second question is, can I absolutely know for sure that it's true? You're saying no.

01:20:33 Speaker_03
Third question is, what's it like when you do believe that thought? So when you sit here and go, whoa, it's gonna be dangerous if I have a depressive episode. What's it like for you when you believe that to be true? It's terrifying, it's awful.

01:20:46 Speaker_02
Yeah. And any time I feel even a twinkling of a possibility that I might be slipping into a melancholy state. I went to a jazz performance recently and they were playing very minor key music. and I felt myself getting very uncomfortable.

01:21:06 Speaker_02
And actually, that was the example I used in my own mind when we were, it was the second example that came to my mind when I was thinking of the whole body no recently.

01:21:18 Speaker_02
Even though there were aspects of the performance I really enjoyed, but as soon as I started feeling myself slip into a sad, what I would call depressive state, there was a level of panic.

01:21:32 Speaker_03
Sure.

01:21:32 Speaker_02
So that's who I am.

01:21:34 Speaker_03
Yeah.

01:21:35 Speaker_02
And I believe that to be true. I'm hypervigilant and panic prone.

01:21:41 Speaker_03
Yeah. Makes sense. I mean, I feel it right now. If I believe the story that if I get into a depressive state, it's going to be dangerous. I feel Panicky, I can feel that hypervigilance. I can feel like, ah, like really anxious. Yeah.

01:21:54 Speaker_05
Yeah. Yeah.

01:21:55 Speaker_03
So that's your experience. So let's just imagine that I have this superpower and your brain is a computer and that thought it's dangerous to go into a depressive state is actually like a computer program.

01:22:10 Speaker_03
And I have the ability to delete that program out of the computer of your brain. It's gone. So right now, I just did it. It's gone. So we're just gonna pretend for a couple of minutes here. And if you just couldn't believe that anymore, what's it like?

01:22:26 Speaker_02
Oh, I think I would have almost certainly would have much more calm, much more presence, right? I wouldn't be future tripping and stuck in anxiety. I would be much more joyful.

01:22:43 Speaker_02
I would have more space for other people because I wouldn't be stuck on the me, me, me show.

01:22:52 Speaker_03
Yeah. And I like to even get it, get yourself even more present, like sit here. And sometimes I even encourage people to close their eyes, but let yourself drop in right here in this conversation.

01:23:03 Speaker_03
And you're now a man sitting here who can't find that thought.

01:23:09 Speaker_04
It's a little more meditative this way. Using your breath, keep opening. What's it like to be here, to be you? to be in this moment without the thought. There's no thought that's replaced it. You're just here without that one.

01:23:33 Speaker_02
Relaxed, optimistic, energized.

01:23:38 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. And my experience is the more I drop in, the more I get to experience more states of presence.

01:23:49 Speaker_03
especially like when you go into that relax, you could even drop in even a little more and it keeps opening up and these states can keep opening to more and more states of well-being.

01:23:58 Speaker_02
Could I do a quick sidebar question, which is, so I think a lot of people listening and even me right now, I'm starting to get a little secondary anxiety by telling myself this story, well, wait a second,

01:24:14 Speaker_02
If it is actually dangerous, I don't want to just go into a place of denial where I take off my seatbelt while I'm driving at 80 miles an hour psychically. That sounds like a bad idea, right?

01:24:28 Speaker_02
So, I suppose I just wanted to get your reiteration that the objective is not to invalidate the belief. The objective is to do an exercise embracing other alternatives.

01:24:43 Speaker_03
And the objective is to understand that at the moment, at least a depressive state isn't what's creating the anxiety for you. It's the belief that it's going to be dangerous that creates the anxiety, right?

01:24:54 Speaker_03
That's what we're going after here is we're going after the recognition that your depressive state, we actually don't know how you will or will not be, but right now the danger you're creating is in your own head by believing you're right about your story.

01:25:08 Speaker_05
Mm-hmm.

01:25:10 Speaker_03
And so we're helping you question that so that you can now be aware and present for the possibility that you might be going into a depressive state in the future and how can you do your best to mitigate that, ride it if you do have it happen so that you're not at the effect of it.

01:25:30 Speaker_02
Thank you. All right, so what's the next step?

01:25:32 Speaker_03
So then the next step is we don't want you to get rid of, it could be dangerous, because I don't know, maybe it could, but we want to help you come back to

01:25:40 Speaker_03
Recognizing that the opposite is at least as true that it doesn't have to be dangerous So we're going to have you go It's not dangerous going into a depressive state is at least as true Can you give me a real example?

01:25:56 Speaker_03
One that not just your head but your heart and your body like there's something that your whole system goes. Ah Okay, I can see how it's true that It doesn't have to be dangerous if I go into a depressive state.

01:26:08 Speaker_03
Can you give me real evidence of how that could be at least as true?

01:26:12 Speaker_02
So I'm doing two things here. I'm doing the exercise with you and I'm also sort of providing an overlay for people listening.

01:26:18 Speaker_03
Nice.

01:26:18 Speaker_02
And please correct me if I'm getting any of this wrong, but what we're doing is we're taking the belief as a statement and we're starting to play with that sentence and the words in that sentence and how it's constructed, right?

01:26:33 Speaker_03
Yeah, we're specifically going after the judgment so that your mind judges, it's going to be dangerous. If I go into a depressive state, it's going to be dangerous. I'm right about how dangerous it's going to be.

01:26:43 Speaker_03
So we just want to go, can we just look at how the opposite's true is, it's not going to be dangerous if you go into a depressive state.

01:26:49 Speaker_03
So the evidence, so now we're coming up with evidence for... How is that statement, it won't be dangerous, at least as true?

01:26:58 Speaker_02
So I'll start with the present tense, that it isn't dangerous, because it won't be dangerous is harder for me. But I will say the fact of the matter is I'm here, and I've had dozens of depressive episodes.

01:27:13 Speaker_03
Yeah.

01:27:13 Speaker_02
and I'm still here, so if the danger is suicide, at least to this point, it's abundantly clear that that has not happened, so.

01:27:26 Speaker_03
Yeah, and I want you to really get that, not just in your head, but I want you to get that in your heart and your body, because I feel you get it intellectually.

01:27:34 Speaker_03
But I really want you to drop down and go, survey says, I've been in multiple depressive states And I'm here, it hasn't been dangerous, in that I haven't killed myself, if that's what you're calling danger.

01:27:51 Speaker_05
Yeah, that would be it.

01:27:54 Speaker_03
Yeah, and so we want you to get that down, especially in the body. Like, your breath, go, oh God, really look and feel that. Yeah, okay, many times, depressive states, here I am, okay, not dangerous. Give me another example of how it's true.

01:28:14 Speaker_03
It's not dangerous if I go into a depressive state.

01:28:19 Speaker_02
I'm having trouble, honestly. I'm wondering if you can help me brainstorm here. Yeah.

01:28:24 Speaker_03
Yeah. So I imagine people come around you, people help you.

01:28:30 Speaker_02
Yeah, yeah, I need to get better at actually reaching out. But yes, when I do have supportive people around me, and I'm very lucky to have people who love me who would respond at the drop of a dime.

01:28:47 Speaker_03
Yeah. So I want you to feel that feel how Oh, my goodness, I am surrounded by so many people. and experts who could help me and have in the past. It was hard to be dangerous if there's all these other folks around me who got my back.

01:29:06 Speaker_03
And so I can see it again in your head, like intellectually, part of what I want is for you to come back down in the body and really feel that. It's a somatic experience that I'm wanting you to get.

01:29:20 Speaker_02
How do you, I know this is like the remedial class with me, but how do you help people to do that? Because it's challenging for me.

01:29:31 Speaker_03
Just imagine one of the last times that you were in one. See all the people who came around you. Really, there were people there. And I want you to just let your body feel that, like feel.

01:29:43 Speaker_03
Oh yeah, there were people who came and asked questions and gave guidance and offered support and listened and just let your body go.

01:29:52 Speaker_03
Let your breath open up and feel from the body the direct experience of support of non-dangerous that you did have in the past that wasn't just intellectual. It was a direct experience of the body.

01:30:07 Speaker_05
Yeah.

01:30:09 Speaker_04
It's like, oh my goodness, there was so much support, so much interconnectedness. Breathe with that, feel that all the way down through the toes.

01:30:20 Speaker_05
Okay, I got it.

01:30:26 Speaker_04
Yeah, nice.

01:30:27 Speaker_05
Yeah, thank you.

01:30:28 Speaker_03
Yeah. It's a whole different ballgame when you include the body. Yeah.

01:30:34 Speaker_02
Yeah, the intellectual side is just like a glancing blow. I mean, it's not, it doesn't fully land.

01:30:39 Speaker_03
Well, yeah, and you're actually not present here to have the experience of non-dangerous because if you're not allowing yourself to come down into the body, you're not fully here to access the intelligence that's giving you a direct experience of not dangerous.

01:30:56 Speaker_01
Right. Mm-hmm.

01:30:58 Speaker_03
So you go, okay, great. And then we go, okay, so not dangerous is at least as true. We had two examples so far. So we're going to go for one more. And now you might even get more clarity of how it's not dangerous.

01:31:11 Speaker_03
If you're listening to your head and your heart and your body, how is it at least as true that going into a depressive state does not have to be dangerous?

01:31:20 Speaker_02
Doesn't have to be. I mean, sometimes the episodes are very short. I don't know if that's, I mean, that's maybe not as overarching a line item as the last two that we did.

01:31:33 Speaker_03
Okay, let's say it's long, because since long is the one that scares you. So let's say it's a long one. How is the long one not dangerous?

01:31:41 Speaker_02
I mean, this is something I've struggled with my whole life, so I'm not, I could use an alley-oop with maybe another.

01:31:48 Speaker_03
Okay, I'm just trying it on myself, because I gotta go in there. I'm gonna try on being depressed and go in there with you. So I can feel I'm not hurting myself. I can feel I'm surrounded by support.

01:32:00 Speaker_03
Another way it's not dangerous could be, what I'm noticing is there's an awareness in you that knows you're depressed, right? Yeah, so there's a witness who's there watching. There's a part that's never in danger who's watching the whole thing.

01:32:21 Speaker_03
That part's not experiencing danger.

01:32:24 Speaker_02
Yeah, the witness is there.

01:32:30 Speaker_03
Yeah, so you could go, oh, when I'm in the depressive state and I'm in my witness, it's not dangerous for that one.

01:32:41 Speaker_05
Yeah, let me sit with that for a second.

01:32:47 Speaker_02
It's challenging for me. I'm partway there. It's partially landing. Since it's also the witness who panics, it's hard.

01:32:58 Speaker_03
I don't think the witness can't panic if you're in witness, if you're truly in witness, the one who's just a watcher without a judgment. One who just says, I have a witness that's like, oh, check you out, Diana.

01:33:12 Speaker_03
You're scaring yourself about being on the Tim Ferriss show. I literally said that to myself this morning. Oh, check you out. Now, my witness is just watching, thinking I'm adorable, that I'm scared, and doesn't have an opinion about it, just watches.

01:33:27 Speaker_03
Oh, there you are. I just wonder if you have a relationship with that part of yourself that just can watch and observe. welcome whatever's happening without judgment.

01:33:41 Speaker_02
There are times when I do. That is a relationship that I want to continue and need to continue to cultivate. Yeah, great. But I think that's a good third, sort of third leg of the stool on the... Yeah.

01:33:55 Speaker_03
So then we go, okay, we want you to keep, it's dangerous. Sure, it's dangerous to get in depressive states. That can be true. But it's also at least it's true that it's not dangerous. And we can see examples of how that's at least is true.

01:34:08 Speaker_03
So what we're trying to get the mind to do is to see, okay, we'll give you both. They both can be true and therefore they're both not true. So then what? Then we get to be with what's underneath all the judgment. There's just, what do you notice?

01:34:25 Speaker_03
If you get to say they're both true, they're both not true, then what do you notice when you imagine that you might go into a depressive state at some point?

01:34:35 Speaker_02
Well, if I'm able to hold both of those equally, then the likelihood of panic and anxiety about possible panic, it's like panic about panic, is going to be less if I can hold those two things.

01:34:55 Speaker_03
Yeah, I call it walking the line. It's like I walk a line right down the center where I'm holding both is equally true.

01:35:02 Speaker_03
And i'm value both sides like sure because I think I don't want to be stupid and I want to dismiss something and be naive But I want to be honoring that.

01:35:11 Speaker_03
Hey I'm, not right meaning righteous About this story I have over here because if I am i'm going to cause myself some kind of reactivity So now I just sit with okay depressive Episode may happen and then ideally if I can walk that line, then all i'm going to do is learn

01:35:31 Speaker_03
I'm gonna be able to stay present to what's happening and learn along the way what needs to happen. And then I get to start to welcome. My experience is I have a lot more trust if I just am willing to welcome whatever's gonna happen.

01:35:50 Speaker_03
I have a preference not to go to depressive state, for sure, but if a depressive state is what happens, okay, we'll learn.

01:36:00 Speaker_02
Yeah, I don't want to take us too far off track, but a friend of mine actually just showed me a book which has been recommended a number of times.

01:36:08 Speaker_02
I have not read it, so I can't vouch for it, but called Feeding Your Demons, but I at least like the title, and it's on this exact subject.

01:36:18 Speaker_03
Yeah, because you feed the demon every time you believe you're right, that it's going to be dangerous, you feed the demon. And so then you're just gonna keep amping up the anxiety.

01:36:26 Speaker_03
And then of course, you have that much anxiety, over time you're gonna burn out and you're gonna get depressed. Because the body's gonna get intelligent and go, I can't run this anxiety all the time. Let's get depressed and just chill out for a while.

01:36:40 Speaker_02
to connect this also for people with the process. So thank you, Diana, for taking me through that.

01:36:46 Speaker_02
And also, these turnarounds, these rephrasings with the objective of, or at least the step of gathering evidence for each of these turnarounds could be applied, and please correct me if I'm wrong.

01:37:00 Speaker_02
If we took, let's just say, a belief that's causing you pain is Who knows? My sister is selfish, right? It's a simple way. So it could be, my sister is selfish.

01:37:09 Speaker_02
Maybe there's something with your parents, and the sister's not pulling the weight, and you're pissed off, and so your belief is my sister's selfish.

01:37:18 Speaker_03
And I might change it to, my sister shouldn't be selfish.

01:37:21 Speaker_02
Oh yeah, that's great. That's great. So my sister shouldn't be selfish. And then you could have, you know, my sister should be selfish. You could have, I should be selfish. I should be selfish.

01:37:33 Speaker_03
Exactly.

01:37:35 Speaker_02
And at the very least, I mean, in my experience, when I am triggered and I'm just so dysregulated that

01:37:44 Speaker_02
The idea of problem solving or coming up with good strategies is just a joke because I'm so emotionally dysregulated that doing this type of exercise at the very least just turns down the volume on the system reactivity and then I can just breathe.

01:38:03 Speaker_02
So I found it very helpful as a pattern interrupt.

01:38:06 Speaker_03
Yes, and to your point, this isn't a good tool to use if you are really dysregulated in the moment. I would recommend first using breath and movement to relax the nervous system to get yourself into more calm first.

01:38:20 Speaker_03
Because if you just try to use this as your first thing, you might likely use it as a weapon and just intellectualize it all. That'll just give you some temporary relief over and over again.

01:38:32 Speaker_03
So I do recommend first getting yourself, use some movement, use some breath, calm the nervous system, we say, handle your blood and brain chemistry first, and then this is a good tool.

01:38:43 Speaker_02
Yeah, for me, it's just go lift some heavy stuff, go to the gym, just stop.

01:38:47 Speaker_03
I also, if I were working with you, I'd have you say, I shouldn't have a depressive state, I should have a depressive state. And I'd really go argue for why you should. And do that so that you get it in your body.

01:39:04 Speaker_03
not just into your head, but I should have a depressive state again, because that's the other thing I hear is there's a arguing with, it would be bad or I shouldn't have it, or I'm trying to avoid it instead of, well, if it happens, it happens.

01:39:18 Speaker_03
And it should happen instead of it shouldn't is at least as true, but that would be a good one to go play with. Cause I think that would also help you be more open to life happening the way it does through you.

01:39:32 Speaker_02
For sure, for sure. Thank you. I would like to, if you're open to it, shift a little bit to relationships. And I want to ask you specifically about your partnership with Matt. So here's one of your superpowers as listed from Mr. Jim.

01:39:55 Speaker_02
Creating and sustaining a wonderful, intimate partnership with Matt, her husband and lover, since they were teenagers. Have her talk about the risks she and they were willing to take to keep the relationship alive and vital, growing and intimate.

01:40:08 Speaker_02
If you are game to talk about that, I would be very interested.

01:40:13 Speaker_03
Yeah.

01:40:14 Speaker_02
To hear more.

01:40:15 Speaker_03
Well, It's a challenge. It's both a great gift to be with a partner since you were young, get to grow up together. There's a lot of shared memories and shared friends and there's a sweetness that it started out with.

01:40:27 Speaker_03
You get to keep, and there's also a great challenge of the fact that we are different people who evolve and change. And so several times, at least three key times in our relationship, we've been willing to let it all go and

01:40:42 Speaker_03
We've basically killed it off, just said the relationship as it was is done. Now let's just check and see what is the relationship that wants to happen moving forward.

01:40:52 Speaker_03
Maybe it's just friends, co-parents, maybe it's lovers, staying married, what is it? And so we have a lot of courage, both of us, to be willing to let go of what's not working and trust that the right form of the relationship will reveal itself.

01:41:10 Speaker_03
And it just so happens that it continues to be us married. And I think we play around often, sometimes we'll get up in the morning, I'll say something like, hey, you want to be married today? And he'll say, Oh, well, what would that mean?

01:41:25 Speaker_03
What kind of a husband do I need to be? And we'll giggle and play around with, well, you know, how about this and this? And then we choose. And that is, for me, we're always choosing over and over again.

01:41:36 Speaker_03
And we always are willing to kind of to the point of using the work with Byron Katie of, I'm willing to open to the possibility that not being married is just as okay as being married. And what that has created is an incredibly vital

01:41:51 Speaker_03
creative, ever-evolving, passionate marriage in which we're freed up to keep exploring new ways of being together. And I am really proud of my relationship. I think it's one of the greatest things I've ever done is the marriage that I have.

01:42:07 Speaker_03
We get a lot of feedback that it's an inspiring marriage to a lot of people who look to it. And I do think it comes with the courage to say no.

01:42:17 Speaker_02
You mentioned at least, I think you said three times, that you've had this type of conversation. I would like to zoom in on the first conversation. Were you both already prepared and trained to initiate that type of conversation?

01:42:38 Speaker_02
Did one side initiate the, hey, let's decide if we want to remain as is, or if we want to take one of these other forms.

01:42:49 Speaker_02
I'm just wondering, for people who are listening who have never had one of these conversations, maybe they've been at the breaking point, but they've never had this conversation.

01:42:56 Speaker_03
I initiated it. It wasn't Matt's idea. I said, hey, this isn't working for me, the way we're in relationship, and there's a different kind of a man I want to be with than how you are.

01:43:13 Speaker_03
possibility and so i didn't know how to do all this i was just toddling around trying to figure this out and yeah i said i don't want to do it this way anymore and so i thought that might mean that we needed to be separated and that we needed to end the marriage and i was willing to we actually got some support from counselors about telling our kids that we were going to divorce because that's the only direction it seemed like we were going to go

01:43:42 Speaker_03
And then I had this great advice from a friend who said, okay, Diana, I love you both. If you think divorce is what needs to happen, that's great. But I hear you complaining that there's a certain man you want him to be that he's not.

01:43:55 Speaker_03
And she said, who is the woman you would need to be to call forward that man?

01:44:02 Speaker_03
and my stomach dropped and i thought i don't want to i don't know about that what and uh i realized oh i would need to be a different woman so we said let's kill off this old marriage and let's see if we can create a new one and i'm going to keep asking myself who do i need to be to call forward the man i want to be with and about six months later

01:44:29 Speaker_03
i was with the man i wanted to be with and i remember saying to him you really changed and he said no you really changed and and the truth is we both really changed but i was really grateful for that first conversation of being willing to let it go and then getting the feedback of hey if you're the creator of who's showing up over there who do you need to be and for

01:44:53 Speaker_03
Many months, I felt like I was going to throw up 24-7 learning to be a much more vulnerable, needy woman who called forward the man who could protect and lead in a way that I hadn't been willing to be in the past.

01:45:11 Speaker_02
How did you, thank you for sharing all this, by the way, and very courageous and vulnerable, and how did you figure out who you needed to be, who that woman was to call forth the version of your husband or the man who you wanted to be with?

01:45:31 Speaker_02
Did you have help? Was it obvious once you sat with it in terms of the changes that needed to be made on your side or the things you needed to cultivate or drop? How did you arrive at the answers?

01:45:44 Speaker_03
At first I didn't know, I just knew I was really scared when I asked the question. I believe that fear is, when we're present, is an intelligence that says something needs to get learned. Something needs to get learned.

01:45:58 Speaker_03
So when I had that fear, I thought, oh, wow, something needs to get learned. I don't know something here. And so that was my first clue that her question was powerful, is the fear that arose in me.

01:46:11 Speaker_03
And then I just kept asking the fear, what needs to be learned? I just kept being really broad in that curiosity. I got into a state of wonder. I wonder who I would need to be to call forward the man I most want to be with.

01:46:27 Speaker_03
I just kept asking that, I wonder, and I let it be okay that I didn't have to know because I didn't know. I've been, you know, with him for a long time and I didn't know.

01:46:36 Speaker_03
So I had to be willing to listen and learn from something greater than my own experience so far. And so it was in that level of curiosity that I just found my way and it was, baby steps, a little bit here, a little bit there.

01:46:58 Speaker_03
And we've had several versions of that often, or not often, but the three versions were all some version of me, something needs to get learned for the next evolution here of this relationship.

01:47:11 Speaker_02
Do you have recommended resources or practices that couples can seek out or embrace so that they are better prepared if they get to these decision points?

01:47:30 Speaker_02
Or just overall, with respect to nurturing sort of a healthy, co-created relationship, are there any books, any particular practices that you would highlight for folks?

01:47:45 Speaker_03
Matt and I studied with Gay and Katie Hendrix for years at the Hendrix Institute. They did a lot of relationship work. They still do a bit of it, but I learned so many tools there on how to get off the drama triangle.

01:47:58 Speaker_03
I learned about personas and about how I get caught in these personas that then unconsciously require the persona of my partner to show up in a certain way that then I complain about.

01:48:08 Speaker_03
And I learned about how to unwind those or shift them when I wanted to. I learned about the importance of feeling my feelings. I learned about really questioning my stories.

01:48:20 Speaker_03
I learned about polarity and how important it is to honor polarity that shows up in couples. making sure that I honored both sides of the polarity equally. For example, a lot of couples argue about money.

01:48:33 Speaker_03
And almost always there's one that we call the gas and one who's the break and somebody who's more free flowing with money and somebody who's more controlling about money.

01:48:42 Speaker_03
And that's a, can we honor these polarities and can we see the value in both of them? Because usually I was the one who wanted to spend the money and my husband wanted to hold on to the money.

01:48:52 Speaker_03
And we would get into a battle about, you know, you're keeping me from having joy in my life because you're so

01:48:58 Speaker_03
stingy about money and he'd say you're gonna make us all broke because you're just so unconscious about spending it and so honoring that those two sides of the player are actually allies that are here to create just the right balance to take care of ourselves and have fun and so those are all different skill sets there's so many different tools and i would say that

01:49:21 Speaker_03
Our book, The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, we wrote it for leaders, but really, it could be a perfect guidebook for couples, if you just apply couple examples in there, because that's what really created the beautiful relationship that I have, are those commitments.

01:49:38 Speaker_03
And those all have tools and skills that are associated with them.

01:49:42 Speaker_02
Could you give us a few examples of some of these commitments? And of course, I would recommend people read the book. I think it's very valuable. But could you give us a handful of examples of what these commitments are?

01:49:57 Speaker_03
We got a lot of these from Gay and Katie Hendricks. They were the ones, they wrote the first two commitments word for word. And the first two commitments, the first one is all around, I commit to take radical responsibility for the results in my life.

01:50:11 Speaker_03
That's a cornerstone commitment. And that looks like some guy who I was coaching the other day called me up and said, my CEO is not giving me the feedback I need to grow as a leader. And so I had him teach me the class.

01:50:25 Speaker_03
How do you create the CEO not giving you the feedback you want? He's like, what? I'm not creating that. I'm not the effect of it. He's not giving it to me. I said, teach me the class.

01:50:35 Speaker_03
So he actually thought for a moment and said, well, value the CEO's time more than your time. Don't reschedule when the CEO breaks your one-on-one meetings. Don't ask directly for the feedback you want."

01:50:47 Speaker_03
And he started to giggle and realized, oh, I'm the creator of not getting the feedback I want. That's radical responsibility. So people often, we say, The thing you're complaining about is often the thing you're committed to creating.

01:51:01 Speaker_03
And if you can own that, that's radical. And then the second commitment is all around letting go of wanting to be right. And what we mean by that is the defending yourself righteously that keeps you from learning and growing.

01:51:13 Speaker_03
Those are the two cornerstone commitments, one and two. I think we even say in the book, like, you could stop right here and just practice these for the rest of your life. But then there's the commitment to really feel feelings.

01:51:23 Speaker_03
And specifically, what I noticed, and we talked about this, you and I, a little bit when you were thinking about writing this notebook, was how much we're trying to control each other feeling feelings.

01:51:34 Speaker_03
So I don't want to say no because I don't want you to have a feeling over there. And I really think I'm right, you shouldn't have them. And I don't want you to have a feeling because then maybe I'll have a feeling.

01:51:45 Speaker_03
And I see how much of our drama in the workplace and at home is coming from suppressing feelings in ourselves and each other.

01:51:52 Speaker_03
Candor is a commitment to be able to say what's going on rather than conceal it, which then causes me to have to start to withdraw. And ending gossip is another commitment.

01:52:04 Speaker_03
really being impeccable around agreements so that I do what I say I'm going to do with another commitment. Those first six, that's what we focus a lot in the business world.

01:52:14 Speaker_03
When we come in and work with teams, we have them work on those six commitments to help secure the identity and relax drama.

01:52:21 Speaker_03
And then once that's done, then we have things like let's look at appreciation, the commitment to appreciate, the commitment to play and rest, the commitment to live in our zones of genius.

01:52:32 Speaker_03
And then the commitments get even deeper into being the source of approval, control and security rather than trying to source it outside of yourself, which is probably one of the most difficult commitments of all.

01:52:43 Speaker_03
And also the commitment of experiencing that you already have enough, which most people also struggle with, especially at least in the business world. I rarely ever come across anybody who has enough time.

01:52:55 Speaker_03
And then they go on from there to being able to create a win for all solution, which is one of my great joys to

01:53:02 Speaker_03
Work with a team where there's a lot of different needs, and it seems like they can't come up with a solution where they all win, and helping them do that. And finally, be the resolution to that which you see missing in the world.

01:53:15 Speaker_03
So if they're not listening, be a better listener. If they're not taking care of things, take care of things.

01:53:22 Speaker_02
Do you still use or recommend people use MindJogger?

01:53:28 Speaker_02
I read that at least for a period of time, you used an app, I believe it was MindJogger, that would ask you multiple times a day, Diana, in this now moment, are you above the line or below the line?

01:53:42 Speaker_03
And- I still use it.

01:53:43 Speaker_02
You do, all right.

01:53:44 Speaker_03
I still use it, I use it every day. And I ask that basic question, where are you? Are you above the line, meaning are you in a state of trust, or are you below the line in a state of threat?

01:53:56 Speaker_03
So I ask that, I have it seven times randomly per day, it pops on my screen, and I pause and look and check. For me, it's like lifting weights every day. So that's one, and then I use other questions that I rotate around.

01:54:12 Speaker_03
Like one I'm really liking right now is, is this exquisite? Diana, is this moment exquisite? And then it gives me a pause to think about how could this be more exquisite?

01:54:25 Speaker_02
What does that mean to you?

01:54:27 Speaker_03
Exquisite is whole body yes to me. Is this a whole body yes? Is this, ah, is this, yes, I'm in my zone. I feel fully alive. I'm doing what I most want to be doing. I'm on purpose.

01:54:41 Speaker_02
What other prompts do you have, or do any others come to mind?

01:54:44 Speaker_03
Oh, yeah. I have a question for each of the commitments. So I rotate them around, like, what are you feeling right now?

01:54:50 Speaker_03
So if I need to keep checking in with my feeling states, another one would be, what do you appreciate about somebody around you right now?

01:54:58 Speaker_03
And then I'll use that as an opportunity to speak that out loud, because I'm really a big fan of lots and lots of appreciation. Another one, do I have enough time right now? I use that one.

01:55:08 Speaker_03
Are you experiencing enough time right now as a way to pause and go, oh, good.

01:55:12 Speaker_03
I'm so glad I asked myself that question because I can feel I'm in a scarcity of time and let me stop and pause and get back into the present moment where there's always enough.

01:55:22 Speaker_02
If you could email those questions slash prompts that you have for each commitment, I would love to. I just downloaded Mind Jogger this morning. I would love to start playing with those if you're open to it.

01:55:34 Speaker_03
Oh, yeah. Absolutely, yeah.

01:55:37 Speaker_02
Maybe we could put them in the show notes as well, and that way people can find them for themselves. I have to say, I really think you are a master of prompts and questions, and we don't have to go through it at length.

01:55:51 Speaker_02
I was actually gonna read every single bullet. I'm not gonna do that because it'll take a bit of time, but you have a piece on LinkedIn. It's an article called How to Assess Self-Awareness in a Hiring Interview.

01:56:01 Speaker_02
Now, people might hear that and say, why the hell Are you bringing that up it sounds so niche it sounds so specific it's only gonna apply to. Three percent of your listenership but it's a great example of questions and prompts.

01:56:20 Speaker_02
For uncommon insight i was very impressed with the questions i'll give just a few. Examples describe a time when you were tempted to blame someone else for something but instead resolved it by owning part of the issue.

01:56:35 Speaker_02
What percentage of agreements do you currently keep with the people you live and work with what causes you to break agreements the most how do you approach broken agreements me these are outstanding. Questions not just by the way for hiring people.

01:56:52 Speaker_02
But I found these questions and prompts to be outstanding. So I will also link to those in the show notes and people will be able to find that article.

01:57:01 Speaker_03
Well, my clients were asking me, hey, how do we interview if we want people who want to come and be in a part of a culture that doesn't have as much drama?

01:57:11 Speaker_03
What should we be asking that would make sure that we knew they were a good fit for the culture we're creating here? And so that was what caused me to put those questions together.

01:57:21 Speaker_03
and I use them myself, you know, we were just we just did a couple of big hires at the conscious leadership group and we almost exclusively focused on self-awareness and people's ability to have candor take responsibility keep their agreements as the one of the primary things we were looking at because You know, they were already very successful candidates.

01:57:43 Speaker_03
So we knew they were they'd had a great pedigree already So we wanted to make sure they were a good culture fit, because we're really committed to no or very little drama in our workplace.

01:57:53 Speaker_02
Diana, we could go for hours and hours and hours. We might just have to do a round two sometime.

01:57:58 Speaker_02
I'd love to, because I'm curious, quite frankly, to know what books, outside of the 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, have you gifted the most to other people?

01:58:09 Speaker_02
Or gifted a lot, doesn't have to be the most, but what books have you gifted a fair amount to people?

01:58:14 Speaker_03
The Big Leap by Gay Hendrix is probably the book I've gifted the most and the one I've recommended the most of any other book.

01:58:23 Speaker_03
And also Conscious Loving for couples, because you asked that question earlier, Conscious Loving I think is a fantastic book for couples who are wanting to get more connected. is another one I've gifted a lot. Those are the two that come top of mind.

01:58:39 Speaker_02
The two primaries. For people who just want a preview, what is The Big Leap about, or what is it for?

01:58:47 Speaker_03
The Big Leap is all about learning to live in your zone of genius, which I think is just the most fun thing, and to take a look at what are the things that keep us from living in our zone of genius.

01:58:59 Speaker_03
And so I tell every leader I coach to get it, and 100% of them have said it was a valuable read.

01:59:05 Speaker_03
And Gay has just come up with a follow-up book on Zone of Genius that just came out last month that I imagine will be another book I'll be recommending and gifting.

01:59:15 Speaker_03
Because I find that inside of all of us is some creativity that when we are in that place, time and space go away. It's so fun and makes life so worth living.

01:59:28 Speaker_03
And I really am excited about supporting people and living as much as possible in that zone of genius.

01:59:36 Speaker_02
Well, I think you did a damn fine job of it. It's been fun to get to know you. It's been fun to also get to know you in this chat a bit more and doing homework.

01:59:45 Speaker_02
It's always fun to do research on friends, which would otherwise be super creepy and like Google stalking, but I have a pretext and excuse, which is doing interviews.

01:59:55 Speaker_02
And people can find the Conscious Leadership Group at conscious.is, and certainly all the social and so on can be found from that jumping off point.

02:00:05 Speaker_02
You also have a lot of PDFs and resources for people on the website, so I encourage people to check out their website. We'll link to that, we'll link to prompts, we'll link to everything that we discussed in the show notes at tim.blogs.com.

02:00:20 Speaker_02
Diana, is there anything else that you would like to say or ask, any request of the audience, anything at all that you'd like to add before we come to a close?

02:00:31 Speaker_03
I feel pretty heartbroken these days about the drama that is happening amongst us. And I'm actually grateful for the heartbreak because it's helping me connect more with love. And one of the things I'm doing is facing

02:00:48 Speaker_03
I'm really facing the cost of the drama that we're having.

02:00:53 Speaker_03
And so I think one of the things I most hope people will do is have the courage to face the cost of the drama that we are creating in our workplaces that has people so overwhelmed at work, the cost politically, environmentally, and that they're willing to face it, let their hearts break wide open, and then from that place,

02:01:16 Speaker_03
get curious and excited about what else could we create together? What else is possible? Because that really excites me. And I think, I don't want to argue with the way the world is. It's just fine the way it is.

02:01:29 Speaker_03
And I have a preference for a lot more play and creativity and togetherness and curiosity that I find when we drop the drama.

02:01:41 Speaker_02
That is an excellent place to close. And what a enjoyable and I think very helpful for me conversation. So thank you very much, Diana, for making the time and being so present. Thank you.

02:01:58 Speaker_03
My great pleasure. I'm so grateful for all the ways you go out into the world and bring forward things that help people live more connected and valuable lives.

02:02:11 Speaker_03
And it is one of the things that I believe your depression has been a great gift is I don't know that you would have done this if you hadn't had the depressions that you had and needed to find the tools that you needed.

02:02:22 Speaker_03
So I'm grateful for your depression and for your own unique journey that has now enhanced so many of ours. So thank you so much.

02:02:35 Speaker_02
Oh, thank you so much, Diana. I really appreciate it. Thank you. And for everybody listening, stay strong, get curious, check out the show notes at Tim.blog.com forward slash podcast. And until next time, thank you for tuning in.

02:02:51 Speaker_02
Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend?

02:03:02 Speaker_02
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02:03:14 Speaker_02
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02:03:22 Speaker_02
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02:03:34 Speaker_02
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02:03:48 Speaker_02
If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog slash friday, type that into your browser, tim.blog slash friday, drop in your email, and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by Momentus.

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