#54 Victor and Maite AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast Heavyweight

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Episode: #54 Victor and Maite

Author: Spotify Studios
Duration: 00:35:06

Episode Shownotes

Victor can’t stop painting portraits of his ex-wife, decades after their divorce. You can find Victor's work at victorrodrigueznyc.com, or on his Instagram at instagram.com/victorrodrigueznyc CREDITS Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was produced by supervising producer Stevie Lane, along with Phoebe Flanigan. The senior producer

is Kalila Holt. Production assistance by Mohini Madgavkar. Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. Special thanks to Lauren Silverman, Neil Drumming, Mimi O’Donnell, Anya Schultz, Jackie Cohen, and Jessica Bashir—the director of Heroin, a short documentary about Victor and Maite. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord. Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Hearst, Sean Jacobi, Saigon Would Be Seoul, and Bobby Lord. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records. Heavyweight is a Spotify Original Podcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary

In this episode of Heavyweight, hosted by Jonathan Goldstein, we explore the complex relationship between Victor and his ex-wife Maite, an artist's enduring connection reflected in over 4,000 portraits painted decades after their divorce. Victor wrestles with themes of nostalgia and regret, viewing Maite as both muse and emotional anchor, while their daughter, Michaela, critiques their unconventional dynamic. The narrative delves into the nuances of love, obsession, and the thin line between admiration and emotional visibility, ultimately revealing layers of intimacy and longing between Victor and Maite despite their separation.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (#54 Victor and Maite) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:04 Speaker_04
Jackie? I can't hear you. Where are you?

00:00:08 Speaker_01
I'm at the beach.

00:00:10 Speaker_04
You're at the beach?

00:00:11 Speaker_01
I'm at the ocean.

00:00:12 Speaker_04
Are you wearing plenty of ointment?

00:00:13 Speaker_01
A lot of ointment. Hi. How are you?

00:00:16 Speaker_04
I'm good. I had a medical question for you. Are outie belly buttons preferred to innies because they need less upkeep? I was talking to my dentist and when I pushed him on it, he says that yes.

00:00:30 Speaker_01
What?

00:00:30 Speaker_04
I know.

00:00:31 Speaker_03
There's a shark? What? He's got a baby shark. Oh my God, he's so cute. I'm going to send you a picture. Okay, bye. Wait. Baby shark, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo. Baby shark, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo. Baby shark, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo.

00:00:57 Speaker_04
I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, Victor and Maite. Right after the break.

00:01:17 Speaker_02
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00:01:49 Speaker_01
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00:02:19 Speaker_04
Depending on how you look at it, the story of Victor and Maite is either a love story for the ages or not a love story at all. Since first meeting Victor, I've been trying to decide which it is.

00:02:31 Speaker_04
When she gets into a room, it's like the sun enters, you know, everything is nice and warm. Victor is a painter living in New York, and he's describing Maite, the woman who first stole his heart 35 years ago.

00:02:47 Speaker_04
The truth is, every time I see her, it's the most beautiful that I have seen her in my life. Victor paints huge, spectacular canvases. There are common motifs like rotary phones, skulls, butterflies.

00:03:02 Speaker_04
But the thing that nearly every painting has in common, the thing Victor can't stop painting, is maite. They first met at a party back home in Mexico 35 years ago. Maite was 18 and Victor was 19. All these years later, and no detail has been forgotten.

00:03:24 Speaker_06
She was wearing a white lace suit, which was from her mother's, like a 70s thing from her mother. How can you forget that?

00:03:36 Speaker_04
Victor, shy by nature, said nothing to Maite at the party. But a couple months later, he ran into her at the university they both attended. And I asked her if she could model.

00:03:49 Speaker_06
And she said yes. And that's how everything started.

00:03:56 Speaker_05
He almost did not even talk that day.

00:04:00 Speaker_04
This is Maite.

00:04:02 Speaker_05
He just said, please sit here. And then he started painting. The whole studio smelled of paint, of oil. I was so nervous that I could barely think. My hands were shaking, and I brought a book.

00:04:20 Speaker_05
I think it was Crime and Punishment, and I was pretending that I was reading, but I could not focus on the reading at all.

00:04:29 Speaker_04
Victor already knew he was going to be an artist, and had even begun to show his work in galleries. His drive made him seem older than his 19 years.

00:04:38 Speaker_05
I was still, I felt that I was in the head and the body of a child. And here's this guy who was enormous, enormous in what he was and believed and knew. I barely knew anything.

00:04:57 Speaker_04
Sitting there, holding still, pretending to read Dostoevsky, Maite was falling in love. After several hours, Victor stopped painting. He thanked Maite, told her she could go. But before she left, he showed her the canvas he'd been working on.

00:05:17 Speaker_04
As Maite recalls, it was almost blank.

00:05:20 Speaker_05
And I was surprised that there was not much on it except for traces or something, but not as I had imagined.

00:05:30 Speaker_06
I was too overwhelmed that this completely out-of-my-league, beautiful, popular girl came. I couldn't do anything. It was just like... But in the days after, I made from memory 35 paintings.

00:05:58 Speaker_04
After that first meeting, the two started dating. A couple years later, they married and moved to New York, where they had a daughter. Victor found success in New York.

00:06:07 Speaker_04
He was discovered by a famous art dealer and began showing in Europe, South America, and Asia. He sold enough paintings to support his family. But as time went on, his relationship with Maite began to deteriorate.

00:06:21 Speaker_06
My nature is very depressive and more introspective and isolated. So I never want to do anything, never want to go to a picnic or hang with friends or go to roller skate in Central Park, that kind of thing. I couldn't.

00:06:39 Speaker_06
And she was the opposite, you know, she was like, let's do everything, let's go out.

00:06:45 Speaker_05
He was not very fond of me going out with friends, but he didn't want to go out with friends either. And that, you know, that was like a pain in the ass. And I think maybe he was always possessive.

00:06:58 Speaker_05
It's just that as we were growing older, it felt more intense.

00:07:05 Speaker_06
Everyone falls in love with her, men and women, everyone. It's impossible not to. She's that kind of person. And I mean, I dealt with that for 11 years. Then I had to divorce.

00:07:26 Speaker_04
In 2003, Victor and Maite mutually decided that it was in their best interests to go their separate ways. But here's the thing. Even now, 20 years after their divorce, Maite is still the face of his work. The hands, the neck, the lips.

00:07:45 Speaker_04
Scrolling through his portfolio, it's image after image of Maite. Maite reading, Maite drinking, Maite talking on the phone. How many paintings would you say you have of her?

00:07:57 Speaker_06
I've made more than 4,000 probably.

00:08:07 Speaker_04
Was there ever a point after you guys had broken up where you made an effort to stop painting her? Yes, of course.

00:08:15 Speaker_06
When I've had girlfriends, the question always comes, are you planning to paint her forever? And my answer is, if you have a better idea, give me a better idea and I might change it. That's my answer.

00:08:33 Speaker_04
And that's the only answer Victor offers, which makes me feel like a kid who won't stop asking, but why? But why? Why his ex-wife?

00:08:45 Speaker_06
Why Maite? I don't really know, but I've done experiments. I've had other models, professional models I hire, and the result is not the same because when I am working on those, I am working on everything that it's not her.

00:09:06 Speaker_06
I am just describing what it's not. Is Maite your first love? I don't know. I had other girlfriends, you know, that I thought that I loved, et cetera, but not like this, no. So the answer might be yes.

00:09:25 Speaker_04
Is she your only love or have you found love since?

00:09:31 Speaker_06
I fell in love since, but something died. I don't want to be, you know, dramatic, but it's the innocence. I don't think it can be replicated.

00:09:47 Speaker_04
Victor broke up with Maite as a husband, and yet he can't break up with her as an artist. But can the two things be separated? To me, it seems impossible. But on this point, Victor is clear.

00:09:59 Speaker_04
He is an artist pursuing his inspiration, not a man pursuing a woman.

00:10:04 Speaker_06
No, no, no. I'm not trying to conquer her heart and to make her think that I love her. No, absolutely nothing at all.

00:10:16 Speaker_04
So for you, it's not pining? No.

00:10:25 Speaker_06
In my Latin American markets, this is like a full-on telenovela where I have old ladies come to me crying, telling me that I will get her in the end. Everyone sees the art and uses it as a mirror to tell themselves a story.

00:10:44 Speaker_04
I've been telling myself the very same story, that boy wins girl, boy loses girl, and boy wins girl back by making thousands of paintings. Am I no different than the old ladies of the Latin American markets?

00:10:59 Speaker_04
Or do I see something about Victor that he himself does not? Eventually, Maite got remarried, started a new family, and Victor kept his distance, respecting the fact that Maite had moved on.

00:11:18 Speaker_04
He continued to paint her, though, using old photographs as a reference. But then, Maite got divorced. And I asked her, can I take some pictures? And she said yes.

00:11:31 Speaker_04
which is how Victor and Maite came up with an unusual arrangement, one that I've been trying to understand. One day each year, Maite goes to Victor's studio, just like she did when they were teenagers.

00:11:43 Speaker_04
And for this one day, she gives herself over to his art. She dons the costumes he chooses and holds the props he hands her. She sits still as he paints her face with makeup and allows herself to be posed in the exact ways Victor wishes.

00:11:59 Speaker_04
After a couple of hours, he pays her as he would any model. Then, Maite leaves, and Victor spends the rest of the year painting her image. In the Greek myth of Persephone, Persephone marries Hades, but is unhappy living in the underworld.

00:12:18 Speaker_04
So Hades agrees to release her to the world above if she promises to return to him once a year. Over time, however, Persephone falls in love with Hades. I can't help wondering if Victor carries a shred of Hades' hope in his heart, too.

00:12:37 Speaker_04
I'll read to you something that he said here in talking about you. I think the physical is not even her most attractive quality. I mean, of course she's super beautiful, but her personality is incredible, like a nuclear bomb of charisma.

00:12:55 Speaker_04
When she gets into a room, it's like the sun enters. Everything is nice and warm.

00:13:14 Speaker_07
Wow.

00:13:21 Speaker_05
That's, I mean, that's very nice. I don't really know what to say. I mean, I worry about him. I worry about how, you know, his state of mind or heart. And I want him to be fine and happy and find joy. What do you think? How do you see this?

00:13:49 Speaker_04
I'm not sure how I see this. Maite doesn't think Victor is in love with her, but enough people have asked her to raise some doubts.

00:13:57 Speaker_04
It is not easy to differentiate where enjoyment ends, curator Gonzalo Ortega writes of Victor's work, and where an obsessive fixation begins. It's this kind of thing. It's people like me. Then make Maite question herself.

00:14:12 Speaker_05
Do you think that I'm... If someone says to me, it looks like you're hurting him, then I would do things differently.

00:14:29 Speaker_04
Having talked to Victor about it at length, I don't think Maite is hurting him. But seen from the outside, the arrangement is unconventional.

00:14:38 Speaker_05
If I try to give it too much thought, I could go crazy a little bit.

00:14:44 Speaker_04
Yeah, yeah.

00:14:45 Speaker_05
So when I have doubts, it's important to know what Michaela thinks. And I feel that she can be my compass.

00:14:54 Speaker_00
I think it really was, for me, normal that my dad painted my mom.

00:15:00 Speaker_04
This is Victor and Maite's daughter, Michaela. She's 25, but was just five years old when her parents divorced.

00:15:07 Speaker_00
I do remember one moment in high school, a friend of mine asked me, oh, your dad still paints your mom? And I said, yeah, he does.

00:15:16 Speaker_04
Yeah.

00:15:17 Speaker_00
And my friend said, well, he's still in love with her then, right? He must still be in love with her. And I guess I did pause. I didn't really know what to say. And I think there was a moment of, is he? Could he be? Maybe I should ask him. And so I did.

00:15:33 Speaker_00
I asked him.

00:15:34 Speaker_04
And what did he say?

00:15:36 Speaker_00
He said, no.

00:15:38 Speaker_04
Like any kid, Mikayla likes to see her parents getting along. So when her mom asks her if she's okay with her modeling, she's always said yes. But, like me, Mikayla still has questions.

00:15:50 Speaker_00
I'd be curious to learn more about my mom, what's going on through her mind, what she feels when she's doing it.

00:15:57 Speaker_04
Talking to Maite, I got the impression that she might agree to help Victor out of a sense of responsibility or even worry. But is that enough to keep someone returning to their ex-husband over and over, year after year?

00:16:11 Speaker_04
Now, along with my question about why Victor continues to paint Maite and only Maite, I have a new one. Why does Maite model?

00:16:22 Speaker_04
Have you ever stopped to imagine what it would be like to be on the receiving end of such attention, like what it's like for her?

00:16:30 Speaker_06
Yes, I have thought how it must feel for her. And I have told her, the day that you want me to do these things, I'll stop.

00:16:40 Speaker_04
And she hasn't, she hasn't so far?

00:16:43 Speaker_06
No.

00:16:44 Speaker_04
Why do you think she comes to your studio?

00:16:47 Speaker_06
I, Jonathan, I truly have no idea.

00:16:51 Speaker_04
Hmm. I wonder. In a few weeks, Victor and Maite are planning their annual photo shoot in Victor's studio. Perhaps the only way to truly understand why Persephone returns to Hades is to follow her down to the underworld and see firsthand.

00:17:12 Speaker_04
After the break, Victor's studio, Hi! Wow, what a place. On a warm Friday in May, I arrive at Victor's studio, a loft space with high ceilings and a concrete floor.

00:17:52 Speaker_04
Victor is dressed in black, black leather leggings, black boots, and thick black glasses. There are paintings and photos of Maite everywhere. On one shelf, I notice a photo of two feet raised on tiptoes. Is that Maite's feet? Yeah.

00:18:10 Speaker_04
You can hear her voice? You can hear the footsteps, okay. Can you distinguish her footsteps from other footsteps? As Maite's steps grow louder, Victor turns to me suddenly. Yes, I can. Hello. How are you?

00:18:35 Speaker_04
My day arrives in a t-shirt, knee-length black skirt, and cowboy boots. She's objectively striking. She and Victor both are.

00:18:43 Speaker_04
It's the first time I've ever been with them together, and it's like they go together, like Jack and Meg White, or Ant-Man and the Wasp.

00:18:51 Speaker_04
I watch them as they watch each other, but of course I cannot see what Victor is seeing, and I cannot feel what either of them is feeling. During the photo shoot, Victor poses Maite beside a Greco bust. He poses her against the stack of books.

00:19:13 Speaker_04
He poses her talking into an old-fashioned rotary telephone and with a handful of rubber super balls. He poses her lying atop a keyboard that he bought especially for the shoot.

00:19:23 Speaker_04
He poses her looking soulfully into the eyes of a Cookie Monster hand puppet. I should have bought some cookies. In spite of the surreal edge to the props, the shoot is surprisingly casual and relaxed. It has the mood of two old friends out for coffee.

00:19:48 Speaker_04
Sometimes, Victor gives Maite direction. But mostly, he doesn't say anything. I don't do anything. Up until now, Maite has been reserved. From the moment we met, her body language betrayed someone who doesn't like attention.

00:20:10 Speaker_04
Yet, as soon as the camera starts clicking, something happens. She comes alive. At one point, Victor compares Maite to Audrey Hepburn, who he says is, quote, not as pretty.

00:20:24 Speaker_06
Not even close, but in the same style. Wow, so excessive.

00:20:32 Speaker_04
Observing the day, one thing seems clear. In answer to Michaela's question about why her mother does it, maybe it's for the simple reason she enjoys it. I think we're done.

00:20:55 Speaker_02
Okay.

00:20:56 Speaker_04
I think we're done. After about an hour, the photoshoot is over. Victor thanks Maite and insists on calling her a car. She's teaching a Spanish class this afternoon. She has a life to get back to.

00:21:08 Speaker_06
Thank you very much. Bye.

00:21:13 Speaker_04
Maite walks out, leaving me and Victor alone. Victor seems tired in that way introverts get after expending a lot of social energy. After watching the shoot, I'm still not sure what to think.

00:21:25 Speaker_04
I was hoping that seeing Victor and Maite together would answer all my questions, but it hasn't. I ask Victor how the shoot went, and he says he's pleased, but he says, I always want more, you know?

00:21:38 Speaker_04
I can't tell if he means more material or more time with Maite. Is he already counting the months until he can see her again?

00:21:46 Speaker_04
this time when Maite walked through the door, did you feel again that feeling of like, she's more beautiful than the last time?

00:21:54 Speaker_06
It multiplies by a hundred, no? You know, I find with her that her beauty or her type of, I don't know what to call it, can be... I'm sure...

00:22:13 Speaker_06
Once she had a tooth extracted when we were married and the dentist brought it to me, and it had a certain shape, and that shape was exactly the same type of beauty.

00:22:23 Speaker_04
It's like the part contains the whole.

00:22:26 Speaker_06
In micro and in macro.

00:22:33 Speaker_04
Okay, let's take it a step further. I mean, do you think you would be, if you were placed 10 teeth from different people, you would be able to identify her tooth? I'll go further.

00:22:42 Speaker_06
If you put 10 thyroid glands, I think I have a good chance of guessing. Why? Listen, I don't know, man. That's why I... I know this sounds like I, this is madness, it's crazy. I understand, I know.

00:23:00 Speaker_06
If I present my portfolio in an institution, mental institution, they will welcome me. It's like, hey, do you belong here, man?

00:23:12 Speaker_04
Victor has insisted since the moment we met that he is not in love with Maite, and I want to believe him. But when he starts talking about how he can pick her thyroid gland out of a lineup, I find it hard to.

00:23:24 Speaker_04
If that's not love, albeit a love bordering on obsession, then what is it? The force of your admiration doesn't seem like it's the right word. Of your, I don't know, what do you think is the right word? Is adoration not the right word?

00:23:41 Speaker_06
Is... No. It's because you're trying to avoid the L word, which is love, right?

00:23:52 Speaker_04
Victor pauses.

00:23:56 Speaker_06
I do feel love for her.

00:24:00 Speaker_04
But as quickly as he admits it, he returns to the same old saw.

00:24:04 Speaker_06
But to me, the only thing that matters is the final art product of the painting.

00:24:09 Speaker_04
This time, though, after having spent the day with them, after seeing the way he looks at Maite, the way that he hangs on her every move, I push back. But do you ever feel like it flows backwards also? You know what I mean?

00:24:21 Speaker_04
That the artwork is also a means of, you know, having a relationship where your love is permissible. Victor needs Maite to make art. But might Victor's art, in some ways, be in service to spending time with Maite also? Uh-huh.

00:24:44 Speaker_06
Yeah. The answer is yes. Real love, real love is, doesn't stop. It doesn't, it continues existing. It transforms itself, it moves in different ways.

00:25:08 Speaker_04
So you're saying that this is real love? Yeah. For Victor, real love doesn't require wooing and rings and shared health insurance. Real love is simply delighting in the object of his affection.

00:25:31 Speaker_04
But Maite has a different idea of what real love is and what it isn't. I'm reminded of something she said the first time we spoke. She told me that even though Victor was always looking at her, she didn't feel seen.

00:25:45 Speaker_05
It's easier to see someone from afar and idealize the person than to be in the everyday and just dealing with the juggling of life.

00:25:56 Speaker_04
But he was with the everyday, you know, for many years.

00:25:59 Speaker_05
I mean, so it's, it's not like he... Yes, but I think, I think that even then, it was kind of an hologram. It was like the ideal.

00:26:09 Speaker_04
Maité has a point. Real love isn't about the ideal. It's hard work and requires seeing a person in their entirety, imperfections and all.

00:26:19 Speaker_04
But then Victor tells me a story from after their divorce that makes me think he sees more than perhaps Maité knows. If he cannot exactly see her imperfections, he can at least see his own.

00:26:32 Speaker_06
One day I was going back home in an Uber, in a taxi, and I saw her with her boyfriend and friends sitting outside a table in a restaurant or bar. And they were all super happy, you know, having a great time.

00:26:49 Speaker_04
Victor had spent the whole day in his studio.

00:26:52 Speaker_06
Doing like a very realistic depiction of her all day long. But there she is, sitting down with those guys, having a beer and talking about whatever and enjoying the day.

00:27:09 Speaker_06
And I thought I couldn't provide her with that happiness or that regular, normal, just enjoyment of life. I couldn't. That was my feeling as a husband. You know what I'm thinking about?

00:27:31 Speaker_06
In cave paintings from 50,000 years ago, the people living in the cave went to hunt for a bison or something, and there was always a dude who stayed behind to depict what happened. And sometimes I think that's my job.

00:27:55 Speaker_06
I don't go out and have the experience, but I'm okay with it. I'm a different thing.

00:28:02 Speaker_04
Yeah, yeah.

00:28:03 Speaker_06
I'm a different thing.

00:28:07 Speaker_00
In college, I didn't really know how to be alone without feeling lonely.

00:28:11 Speaker_04
This is Victor and Maite's daughter, Mikayla, again.

00:28:15 Speaker_00
Every time I was alone, I felt like I was doing something wrong or that, you know, I felt a little ashamed.

00:28:21 Speaker_04
As it happens, Mikayla is a social psychology doctoral student, and her work focuses on, of all things, the study of loneliness. A little bit, it feels like she's dedicated her life to trying to understand her dad.

00:28:35 Speaker_00
There was a moment my sophomore year of college when I was feeling really alone and very lonely. And I called my dad and we talked for a while. And he told me something that has stuck with me to this day. He said, being alone does not mean being lonely.

00:28:55 Speaker_00
It really struck me.

00:28:58 Speaker_04
And do you think your dad was talking about himself?

00:29:01 Speaker_00
Yeah. I think of him as someone who really enjoys his solitude. Yeah. If he wanted to have a significant other, if he wanted to have a big group of friends, he totally could, but he doesn't want to.

00:29:15 Speaker_00
And he knows that's a choice, so he's making a choice, which I think is hard for some people to understand.

00:29:22 Speaker_04
Victor's alone, but not lonely. He's not with somebody, and yet he is, sort of. Finally, I think I understand. Victor couldn't handle being with Maite in her three dimensions, but with this arrangement, he only has to be with her in two.

00:29:41 Speaker_04
Victor can worship Maite as he did that first time he laid eyes on her as a teenager, and then he lets her leave. For Maite's part, she loves Victor too, but she needed something more.

00:29:54 Speaker_04
So if Victor expresses his love by letting Maite go, Maite expresses her love by allowing him, for one day at least, to keep her. It's Friday, and so, before parting, I ask Victor what I always ask people on Fridays. Do you have weekend plans?

00:30:17 Speaker_04
You know what? I don't.

00:30:20 Speaker_06
I don't have anything to do. All I do is come here and work.

00:30:26 Speaker_04
You'll be here working? Yeah. Victor then tells me he's looking forward to the weekend. And I believe him.

00:31:11 Speaker_07
Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home Now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damage deposit Take this moment to decide If we meant it, if we tried from things that accidentally touched you.

00:31:47 Speaker_04
This episode of Heavyweight was produced by supervising producer Stevie Lane and me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Phoebe Flanagan. Our senior producer is Khalilah Holt. Production assistance by Mohini Madgawkar. Editorial guidance from Emily Condon.

00:32:00 Speaker_04
Special thanks to Lauren Silverman, Neil Drumming, Mimi O'Donnell, Anya Schultz, Jackie Cohen, and Jessica Beshear, who directed a short documentary about Victor's art called Heroin, which is where I first learned about Victor and Maite.

00:32:13 Speaker_04
Bobby Lord makes the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson, Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Hurst, and Bobby Lord. Additional music credits can be found on our website, gimletmedia.com slash heavyweight.

00:32:25 Speaker_04
Our theme song is by The Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records. Heavyweight is a Spotify original podcast. Follow us on Twitter at heavyweight, on Instagram at heavyweightpodcast, or email us at heavyweightatgimletmedia.com.

00:32:39 Speaker_04
You can also follow our show on Spotify and tap the bell to receive notifications when new episodes drop. We'll be back in two weeks' time with a new episode.