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Episode: #51 The Elliotts

Author: Spotify Studios
Duration: 01:01:37

Episode Shownotes

In 1525, the Archbishop of Glasgow placed a curse on the Elliott family. Now, 500 years later, one very unlucky branch of the Elliotts wants it lifted. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was produced by supervising producer Stevie Lane, and Mohini Madgavkar. The senior

producer is Kalila Holt. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Blumberg, Valentina Powers, Max Green, Damiano Marchetti, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord. Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Michael Hearst, Blue Dot Sessions, Sean Jacobi, Gideon Freudmann, Hew Time, Jaybird Blonde, Roma, and Bobby Lord. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records. Dillon Elliott has been volunteering for a suicide-prevention organization, Samaritans, for years. To find out more about their important work, visit www.samaritans.org Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Full Transcript

00:00:03 Speaker_06
I'm trying to remember, do you have any celebrity impressions that you do? No. Didn't you used to do Celine Dion? No, I didn't. You used to do the theme song to the Titanic? No, that was Karen. Karen used to sing that song? Karen does sing that song.

00:00:20 Speaker_06
Does she have a nice voice? No. Because guess who I have on the other line, Karen? Did that scare you?

00:00:30 Speaker_12
It did get me a little nervous.

00:00:31 Speaker_06
Did it not make you feel alive?

00:00:33 Speaker_12
I felt a little scared.

00:00:39 Speaker_08
A little scared?

00:00:39 Speaker_12
Yeah.

00:00:40 Speaker_08
She doesn't have a nice voice. I mean, she can't sing it. Oh, wait a second.

00:00:44 Speaker_06
She's back on the line.

00:00:46 Speaker_04
It's Karen. Oh, Jackie. How could you say that about my singing?

00:00:57 Speaker_06
From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, The Elliotts. Right after the break. I get a lot of emails from people looking for help, but Dylan's stood out.

00:01:24 Speaker_06
Dear Jonathan, it read, I have a big one for you, the heaviest weight yet. Dylan's email was over the top, clickbaity even. Hi Dylan, how are you? Nice to meet you, Jonathan. But who among us is inured to the lure of clickbait?

00:01:42 Speaker_06
Dylan Elliott lives in Dublin, and the story he tells me, you'll have to hear to believe. Dylan says that when he and his family get together, their favorite thing to do is share stories of their misfortune.

00:01:59 Speaker_06
Mysterious ailments and plumbing disasters, near drownings and dental procedures gone terribly awry. They always come away from these sessions wondering the same thing. How can one family have so much bad luck?

00:02:13 Speaker_01
So a few years ago, I was at a large family gathering.

00:02:17 Speaker_06
Dylan says that at a recent family wedding, he and his brothers were going around the table enumerating their woes as usual when their father suddenly interrupted them.

00:02:27 Speaker_01
And my dad came out and said, well, you don't know about the curse, the Elliot curse?

00:02:39 Speaker_06
Dylan and his brothers looked at each other. What Elliot curse, they'd never heard of such a thing. And so their father offered what would prove to be a unifying theory of their terrible luck. He began at the beginning. The very beginning is 1525.

00:02:58 Speaker_06
About 500 years ago, Scotland and England were at war over the territory along their border. The people who lived along these borderlands were hardest hit.

00:03:08 Speaker_01
And so they were left in this nomadic position where the only living they could make was by going back and forth across the border and thieving. Thieving, and pillaging, and maiming, as well as murdering.

00:03:22 Speaker_01
What they had to be as a culture was extremely friendly, but also really murdery. Because, like, if you've got to be moving from area to area, you have to be very open to people because there could be trades going on.

00:03:34 Speaker_01
But if they wrong you, you've got to kill them immediately.

00:03:40 Speaker_06
And these people, these friendly murdery people who lived along the border, were called... Border Reavers. You say Reavers?

00:03:49 Speaker_01
Yeah, Reavers.

00:03:50 Speaker_06
What are those?

00:03:52 Speaker_01
It's kind of like the exact opposite of a weaver. So weavers make clothes, weavers are kind of like murderers.

00:03:58 Speaker_06
Wait, weavers make clothes, but weavers are murderers? Yes. Which technically isn't the opposite of making clothes.

00:04:06 Speaker_01
It's quite far away, though, in fairness.

00:04:08 Speaker_06
It is, it is. But probably the opposite of making clothes would be like maybe ripping up clothes.

00:04:15 Speaker_01
And stealing, I guess.

00:04:16 Speaker_06
Yeah, again, not necessarily the opposite, but I get it. Yeah, it's the other end of the spectrum. Sorry. Bless you. Thank you. That's the opposite of a curse, by the way, to bring it back to opposites.

00:04:31 Speaker_06
Dylan says there were a number of Reaver family clans, but one of the biggest, most notorious, least weavery, and most murdery of all were the Elliots. And that's you. You're Dylan Elliott.

00:04:46 Speaker_06
In 1525, the then Archbishop of Glasgow, desperate to deter the Reavers, placed a curse on them, the aforementioned Eliot Curse. Shall I read the curse to you? Please.

00:04:58 Speaker_01
I curse their heads and all the hairs of their head. I curse their face, their brain, their mouth, their nose, their tongue, their teeth, their forehead, their shoulders, their breast, their heart, their stomach, their back.

00:05:14 Speaker_01
their room, their arms, their legs, their hands, their feet, and every part of their body from the top of their head to the soles of their feet, before and behind, within and without.

00:05:27 Speaker_06
As a Jew raised on Yiddish curses, my Bubba's, may you hang upside down like a chandelier, most often levied against my grandfather for losing the TV remote, was about as bad as it got.

00:05:39 Speaker_06
It sounds worse in Yiddish, but still, it's nothing compared to this curse.

00:05:44 Speaker_01
I curse them going and I curse them riding. I curse them standing and I curse them sitting.

00:05:48 Speaker_06
This curse reads like a children's book written by a serial killer. I would curse them here or there. I would curse them anywhere.

00:05:56 Speaker_01
I curse them within the house. I curse them outside of the house. I curse them at home. I curse them away from home. their cattle, their wool, their sheep, their barnyards, their cowsheds, their cabbage patches. Even their cabbage patches.

00:06:16 Speaker_01
Their horses, their swans.

00:06:18 Speaker_06
And it's not just the reavers themselves that the Archbishop dams, but anyone remotely associated with them.

00:06:24 Speaker_01
I forbid all Christian men and women to have any company with them, eating, drinking, speaking, praying, lying, going, standing, under the pain of deadly sin.

00:06:34 Speaker_06
And just when you think there's nothing left to curse, Okay. For a full three minutes, Dylan continues on with wildfires and dyspepsia, pestilence and plagues, until finally... Yeah, that's a curse.

00:07:08 Speaker_06
Back at the family wedding, seated around the table, Dylan says he remembers that when his dad was done reciting excerpts from the curse, he was met with stunned silence.

00:07:17 Speaker_01
You almost expect people to laugh when they hear a curse like that, but there wasn't really a laugh. The reaction in the room was this kind of aha moment where everyone's like, this makes total sense.

00:07:28 Speaker_01
This explains why so many weird things have happened to our family.

00:07:32 Speaker_06
Weird, and also weirdly specific to the curse. Dylan tells me about the soles of his feet. He was born flat-footed. And his tongue. He was born tongue-tied. And regarding the, I curse you away from home part of the curse.

00:07:46 Speaker_01
I got mugged three days in a row in Paris. And each morning I went out and I bought the slightly shittier phone than I had previously. Until eventually I had a phone which is like an old person's phone with giant buttons on it.

00:08:00 Speaker_01
And I got mugged for that one as well. So I got mugged three days in a row in Paris.

00:08:04 Speaker_06
Like three separate occasions by three separate muggers?

00:08:09 Speaker_01
Yeah, three separate muggers, three nights in a row. What? That's insane. I was trying to work it out one time. I think the odds of getting mugged in a given year are not 0.3%. So what are the odds of getting mugged three days in a row?

00:08:24 Speaker_01
It's like getting struck by lightning and winning the lottery at the same time or something.

00:08:34 Speaker_06
And Dylan says it's not just him. He tells me about his brother, a talented gardener who can grow anything except cabbages.

00:08:43 Speaker_01
The one thing that's mentioned in the curse, the curse says, I curse their cabbage patches. And he can't grow cabbages. He can't grow brassicas at all.

00:08:53 Speaker_17
I've been pretty successful growing all different types of vegetables.

00:08:56 Speaker_06
This is Dylan's younger brother, Rory Elliott.

00:08:59 Speaker_17
But like the cabbages in particular, like, always seem to be afflicted by some kind of like mold or fungus.

00:09:07 Speaker_06
Then there's Rory's feet.

00:09:09 Speaker_17
My mom always said that my feet were like that of a buzzard. Pretty much talons, yeah. And his eyes. I tore my cornea. I had to wear an eye patch.

00:09:18 Speaker_06
And mouth.

00:09:19 Speaker_17
I've had so many mouth ulcers. I've just been worried that it's like the curse trying to stop me talking to you guys.

00:09:26 Speaker_06
Rory is a scientist, so he knows that believing in curses is crazy, but he also knows the value of hard data, and the evidence is semi-undeniable. Like how the archbishop curses them going and curses them riding?

00:09:41 Speaker_17
I assume that he meant riding horses, but I guess it covered bicycles. Okay, what has happened? Like, for instance, one time I was cycling to get some seaweed to put on my crops because they weren't doing very well.

00:09:57 Speaker_06
His crops being the cabbages, Rory was getting seaweed for his cabbages.

00:10:02 Speaker_17
And there was an iron bar in the ground and then I ended up going like head over the handlebars and like flying headfirst into a dog food factory.

00:10:13 Speaker_06
Sorry, did you say you flew into a dog food... what? A dog food factory? Yeah.

00:10:21 Speaker_17
I broke my wrist, I broke my arm, I needed a lot of stitches. That was fairly cursed.

00:10:36 Speaker_19
On a logical level, I'm not superstitious at all, but I am a little bit superstitious.

00:10:44 Speaker_06
This is Dylan's other brother, Tim Elliott. Tim is waiting to receive funding for his Ph.D. in history.

00:10:50 Speaker_19
In the meantime... I'm a sort of, um... I'm just a freelance person.

00:10:57 Speaker_06
What do you freelance at?

00:10:58 Speaker_19
Um... Not really much.

00:11:08 Speaker_06
If Dylan is rather Eeyore-like, and Rory is something of a negative Nelly, then Tim is like Charlie Brown, if Charlie Brown were looking for PhD funding.

00:11:19 Speaker_18
And given the curse, well, I mean, who would have much hope for that?

00:11:24 Speaker_06
Like his brothers, Tim lists off sorrows specific to the curse. He went bald in his 20s, has teeth with holes in them, and his feet?

00:11:33 Speaker_19
When I was born, my feet pointed outwards. And then I was putting these shoes, so you think, okay, here comes the solution.

00:11:43 Speaker_18
But then they pointed inwards and were overcorrected.

00:11:46 Speaker_06
Then, there's the muggings. While Dylan's been mugged a paltry three times, Tim's been mugged five times? Yeah.

00:11:56 Speaker_19
One of them, I was mugged while I was dressed as a robot.

00:12:01 Speaker_06
I'm so sorry. That just really surprised me. It feels wrong to laugh at someone's misfortunes. But then, when the follow-up question you're forced to ask a grown man is, why were you dressed as a robot? It seems acceptable somehow.

00:12:18 Speaker_19
It was Halloween. I was dressed as a robot called the TimTron 5000. I mean, I put so much effort into it. I had a set of lights going on in my chest, blinking. I had a police siren on my head, spinning.

00:12:35 Speaker_06
I'm imagining you like in a box wrapped in tinfoil or something.

00:12:40 Speaker_19
You're exactly bang on. I was with a group of friends, all dressed differently. I think there was a bumblebee there, there was a pirate.

00:12:54 Speaker_06
There was... I'm sorry, yeah. So the Tim Tron 5000, the Bumblebee, and the Pirate were walking along when they were suddenly approached by a group of kids. And when I say kids... They were young fellas.

00:13:08 Speaker_19
Like 14. Really? Yeah, yeah.

00:13:11 Speaker_06
The ringleader demanded Tim hand over the beers he was carrying. But Tim refused.

00:13:17 Speaker_19
So he pulls out this pocket knife and he says, I'm gonna, you know, what do you think about this? Now, if you recall, Jonathan, I'm wearing nothing but cardboard boxes.

00:13:29 Speaker_06
Oh, I recall.

00:13:30 Speaker_19
So the bumblebee, the pirates disappear, and I'm not quite a sleet of foot, and I get pushed onto my back like a tortoise. Completely unable to get up.

00:13:46 Speaker_06
The kids pulled the siren from Tim Tron 5000's head, roughed him up a bit. Did you report it?

00:13:54 Speaker_20
Yeah, we got the police and they sort of just said, well, I mean, what do you expect?

00:14:05 Speaker_01
With my family, it's like... it's shorthand now. Here's Dylan again. Like, we just roll our eyes and go, ah, the fucking curse.

00:14:14 Speaker_06
The misfortunes that you... that you mentioned, I mean, do you literally feel like they're connected to this 500-odd-year curse?

00:14:25 Speaker_01
I think... It's like this, Jonathan, in my head, it's like, if you've got 500 years of people wishing you ill, it cannot be good for your soul.

00:14:38 Speaker_06
Dylan says that since the old Archbishop of Glasgow levied the curse, the present-day Archbishop is the only person with the power to lift it. Others have made appeals to him, but he's never responded. What I'd love is the curse to be lifted.

00:14:52 Speaker_06
We will do anything to lift this curse. And so, Dylan has come to me for help. I did notice that there was something in the curse about anybody who helps you. I think they're cursed, too.

00:15:04 Speaker_01
It's any Christian man. All Christian men who speak to me are cursed by proxy. I think being Jewish, you're actually excused.

00:15:12 Speaker_06
Oh, because I am not Christian. That gives me a leg up.

00:15:15 Speaker_01
I think so, yeah.

00:15:16 Speaker_06
Is that the loophole here? Is that why you came to me? It wasn't because of my previous good works. It was just because I'm a Jew. Which brings us back to his email about how lifting the curse would be the biggest heavyweight yet.

00:15:31 Speaker_06
Because the curse isn't limited to just the Elliotts. It encompasses all the Reaver families.

00:15:37 Speaker_01
There's 300,000 Elliotts in the world. How many Armstrongs and Scots and Nixons and Dixons and Pringles?

00:15:49 Speaker_06
Not to sound like one of those seedy personal injury lawyers, but if your name is Scott or Douglas, Reed or Robson, Nixon or Dixon, you may be entitled to karmic compensation. I'm trying to find the exceptions to the rules, you know what I mean?

00:16:03 Speaker_06
Like you mentioned Pringles, like, well, you know, they had those canisters of chips, so they probably did okay.

00:16:09 Speaker_01
Can you tell me you've had a packet of Pringles and not felt a little bit cursed afterwards?

00:16:14 Speaker_06
Well put. Dylan and his brothers are tired of their mouth ulcers and tooth holes, tired of wearing eye patches and getting beaten up by children. They're ready to live their best lives.

00:16:27 Speaker_06
If we got this lifted, what would the ensuing days look like, if you had to speculate?

00:16:32 Speaker_19
For me, it'd probably be getting funding.

00:16:38 Speaker_17
To do your PhD?

00:16:39 Speaker_19
Yes.

00:16:42 Speaker_17
I want to be able to grow cabbages, because I actually love cabbage. I don't know. I would just love to be able to grow cabbages.

00:16:48 Speaker_06
Okay. Cabbages. And what else?

00:16:55 Speaker_17
Mainly the cabbages. I really love cabbages. Like in stir-fry, soups. I don't know. Yeah. Mostly cabbages.

00:17:08 Speaker_06
We're going to get you, Elliot, turned around. We're going to erase the chalkboard. Fresh new start. The curse Dylan read to me in its dizzying entirety comes from the Elliott Clan Society website.

00:17:29 Speaker_06
It turns out there's a whole organization of descendants of border reavers named Elliott. The site contains a history of the Elliott family, a map of Elliott territory, and a list of famous Elliotts, like T.S.

00:17:42 Speaker_06
Elliott, the poet who dared not eat a peach, and Sam Elliott, the push-broomed mustachioed actor who, safe to say, should probably also stay away from peaches. And then there's the page with the transcript of the curse.

00:17:58 Speaker_06
Underneath it, there are reams and reams of comments. Stephen Kyle Elliott posts that he's the only member of his family in four generations that hasn't been to prison or had problems with drugs.

00:18:10 Speaker_06
I try to do right and be a good person, but I always seem to have the most bad luck possible, he says. Mary Elliott cites cancer, airplane crashes, and fires.

00:18:21 Speaker_06
Long before I ever heard of this curse, I felt a curse had been put on our family, she writes. Believe me, the curse is alive and well.

00:18:30 Speaker_05
Hello?

00:18:41 Speaker_06
Hello, is this Margaret Elliott?

00:18:43 Speaker_05
Yes, it is.

00:18:45 Speaker_06
Margaret Elliott is the chief of the Elliott Clan Society. This is Jonathan Goldstein calling from the American podcast.

00:18:53 Speaker_05
I know, how exciting.

00:18:55 Speaker_06
It is my held belief that setting off on a quest to lift a 500-year-old clan curse requires the blessing of a clan chieftainess. Margaret Elliott sounds like someone who owns at least a dozen and a half Welsh Corgis.

00:19:09 Speaker_06
And like real nobility, she says she inherited the role from her father, who was chief before her. With the title, does there come a dwelling, like the way the president of the United States gets to live in the White House? No, unfortunately not.

00:19:24 Speaker_06
To begin, Margaret proudly shares some fun facts about the Elliott family.

00:19:28 Speaker_05
The Canadian prime minister was an Elliott. His middle name was Pierre Elliott Trudeau.

00:19:35 Speaker_06
Pierre Elliott Trudeau traced his lineage back to the Elliott clan. I didn't know that.

00:19:40 Speaker_05
Yes, he did.

00:19:43 Speaker_06
Yeah, my middle name is Stuart.

00:19:49 Speaker_13
Is it?

00:19:57 Speaker_06
When I get down to explaining my mission, Margaret tells me she's known about the curse her whole life.

00:20:02 Speaker_05
It's a part of Elliott history, but at the same time... I don't pay this any attention at all.

00:20:08 Speaker_06
Yeah.

00:20:09 Speaker_05
I mean, this is the first time I've ever actually talked about it. I've never thought it was remotely important.

00:20:16 Speaker_06
It's important to her constituents, though. I tell her about Dylan and his brothers, the eye patches, the constant muggings, the cabbage problems.

00:20:29 Speaker_05
I don't think he can blame it. I think maybe he's got the wrong sort of brand for cabbage.

00:20:35 Speaker_06
Yeah, the cursed kind. Although Margaret doesn't put stock in curses, she still blesses the mission and even offers to help. Well, I mean, I could probably get an archbishop on the phone. Do you think you can get an archbishop on the telephone? Why not?

00:20:58 Speaker_06
Wow, I really appreciate your good old American moxie on that one.

00:21:05 Speaker_05
What does that mean?

00:21:07 Speaker_06
What does good old American Moxie mean, Margaret? It's throwing a bottle rocket into a trash can just to see it go boom. It's staring down your enemies while picking your teeth with a corn dog stick.

00:21:20 Speaker_06
It's sewing a Canadian flag onto your backpack when traveling through Europe, so when you toss a bottle rocket into some Parisian poubelle, Canada looks like the idiot.

00:21:31 Speaker_06
Moxie is getting a bishop on the horn and greeting him with a big fat American howdy-do. Have you ever reached out to an archbishop before?

00:21:39 Speaker_05
No, I know a bishop or two, but no, I don't have. It'll be interesting. I will follow it up. You've inspired me.

00:21:50 Speaker_06
Wow, okay. That isn't often what I do, so I appreciate that.

00:21:54 Speaker_05
Very good.

00:21:57 Speaker_06
Margaret is on the case. But before getting off the phone, she counsels me against talking to other Elliotts about the curse. If they're blissfully unaware, she says, why share something that will only trouble them?

00:22:10 Speaker_06
To illustrate her point, Margaret tells me about an art installation memorializing the curse. It's called The Cursing Stone, and it's a 14-ton granite boulder with the curse inscribed upon it. It was commissioned by the city of Carlisle in 2001.

00:22:26 Speaker_04
Which I thought was fairly unwise. But I don't believe in this curse. But there are people who do, like your friend Dylan. And I think it is unwise to bring it out again. Because it alarms people.

00:22:42 Speaker_06
But the fallout caused by the stone suggests it more than alarmed people. Following its installation, the city experienced a series of disasters.

00:22:51 Speaker_06
The worst flood in 200 years, an outbreak of foot and mouth disease, numerous businesses and factories shutting down, among them, notably, a bar called The Reaver Pub.

00:23:03 Speaker_06
And the local soccer team, Carlisle United, lost so many games, they were relegated to a lower league. So I speak with the artist who sculpted the cursing stone, Gordon Young of the border-weaving Young clan.

00:23:17 Speaker_06
But despite the biblical plagues unleashed by his art, Gordon doesn't put any stock in the curse at all.

00:23:23 Speaker_06
Do you think there's anything suggestive about the timing, you know, like just after the unveiling of your work and all of these misfortunes occurring? Do you see anything? Not at all, no. You don't admit that the timing is sort of interesting?

00:23:42 Speaker_14
No.

00:23:44 Speaker_06
Do you feel like you've been affected by the curse? Like, do you feel that you're unluckier than your friends?

00:23:49 Speaker_14
I feel A lifelong saying would be, if I fell down a toilet, I'd come up smelling of roses. And I feel I have been very, very, very lucky all my life.

00:24:06 Speaker_06
Gordon's answer surprises me. So, I conduct an informal survey. Turning to the phone book, I dial random Elliotts to see how unlucky they are. Hello, is this Dale Elliott? Yes, it is. Hello, is this Tanya Elliott Hensby? Yes.

00:24:28 Speaker_06
I even phone a real estate agent on a lawn sign.

00:24:31 Speaker_07
Tanya Elliott.

00:24:32 Speaker_06
And I reach out to Margaret's Elliott Society Klan officers all across the USA. You're a state commissioner for Alabama? Arkansas, but yeah. I'm a commissioner for Klan Elliott in Texas, yes.

00:24:44 Speaker_14
Yes, I'm the Northern California commissioner for it.

00:24:47 Speaker_06
I ask if any of them have experienced the things the Elliott brothers have. The inability to ever grow cabbage. Any dental problems? Do you own cattle or sheep growing cabbage? Are you bald? But it seems they haven't.

00:25:03 Speaker_02
Nope.

00:25:03 Speaker_06
Nope.

00:25:04 Speaker_02
Nope. No, I'm a gorgeous redhead.

00:25:11 Speaker_06
So I find myself wondering whether ill fortune might be less a border reaver problem and more a Dylan, Tim and Rory problem. What was going on with the Elliott brothers? Why all the bad luck? And was the curse really to blame for it?

00:25:26 Speaker_06
Since Dylan, Tim, and Rory's dad, David, was the one who first told them about the curse, I wonder if he would have any insight. So I reach out to David, but at the last minute, he balks.

00:25:37 Speaker_06
Dylan says it's because his dad is nervous that even talking about the curse could exacerbate it. But in David's stead, Dylan's Aunt Jo agrees to talk to me.

00:25:47 Speaker_12
Hello, Johnson, how are you?

00:25:50 Speaker_06
I'm okay, how are you today?

00:25:51 Speaker_12
Not too bad, I'm very glad it's Friday.

00:25:54 Speaker_06
In the background, I can hear Joe pouring something into a glass. What is it that you're drinking?

00:26:01 Speaker_12
Oh, Pinot Grigio. Is that all right?

00:26:03 Speaker_06
It's absolutely okay. Yeah, I sometimes think that I could tell what someone's drinking, but it's a little Picadillo of mine.

00:26:09 Speaker_06
I asked Joe about her family, whether they're a bunch of magical thinkers, like, say, someone who thinks he can tell what beverage someone is drinking over the phone. Maybe they've over-indexed on this whole curse thing.

00:26:21 Speaker_06
Was your upbringing superstitious? Did your parents have rituals and stuff like that?

00:26:26 Speaker_12
Well, I was brought up by my grandparents.

00:26:29 Speaker_06
And then, Jo tells me the reason she was raised by her grandparents.

00:26:33 Speaker_12
Our parents died when we were all very young.

00:26:37 Speaker_06
Your parents died around the same time?

00:26:39 Speaker_12
Yeah, yeah, they died in a car accident.

00:26:42 Speaker_06
Oh my, I'm so sorry.

00:26:43 Speaker_12
Yeah.

00:26:45 Speaker_06
And they were together?

00:26:46 Speaker_12
Yeah, yeah.

00:26:50 Speaker_06
Has that ever struck you as a bit of bad luck?

00:26:57 Speaker_12
It was really bad luck, right? I mean, that's like the worst luck ever, almost.

00:27:02 Speaker_06
Jo was only four years old at the time of the accident, so she doesn't remember the day. But she does remember learning about the death of her parents for the first time.

00:27:11 Speaker_12
I was able to read, so I must have been about six. And I found a newspaper cutting in my grandmother's chest of drawers. And I could see that my name was in there and my sister's name was in there. And I could see it was talking about two people.

00:27:28 Speaker_12
And I wasn't sure who their names were, but it sounded really sad to me. And it had this really big, long word at the top of it. So I went and asked my grandmother what it was. And she said, well, that word is an obituary.

00:27:42 Speaker_12
And these people are your mom and dad. and they're dead. I do have a few memories. When my dad used to go out to work, I used to have to help him put his socks on.

00:28:01 Speaker_12
The day my dad went in to tell the teacher off in school because she was really horrible to me. And I remember being woken up in the middle of the night to come downstairs and see the new toys that my dad had brought home from work.

00:28:17 Speaker_12
It was a little red tea set. I remember the first time I tasted Chinese food because my mum was ill in bed and my dad brought me in to taste the Chinese food and there was pineapple on it and I'd never had pineapple before.

00:28:39 Speaker_06
Jo says that after her parents' death, she and her six siblings were all split up, sent to different relatives. It took them many years, not until they were adults, to all reconnect.

00:28:50 Speaker_06
Do you think this family trauma has kind of cast a pall over David's kids?

00:28:59 Speaker_12
There is no doubt in our family that our parents' death was Oh my goodness, catastrophic in a lot of ways. It was terrible. It's a big sadness, and I think they picked that up.

00:29:14 Speaker_06
When you're a kid, it's a scary thing to learn that tragedy can strike at any moment for no reason, that there's no insulation between you and the darkness.

00:29:24 Speaker_06
Joe doesn't think the curse caused the accident, but the accident might've given the idea of a curse a certain allure. It offered an explanation for something unexplainable.

00:29:36 Speaker_06
Growing up, Dylan and his brothers heard about their grandparents' death, were raised with the feeling of a vague dark cloud that hung over the family. But now, they've given that dark cloud a name, the Curse of the Elliots.

00:29:50 Speaker_06
And what you can name, you can vanquish. What do you think that lifting the curse might change for David or for your nephews?

00:30:06 Speaker_12
give a breathing space. And I don't know why I've said that word or that phrase, but that's just what it feels like.

00:30:12 Speaker_06
A breathing space?

00:30:14 Speaker_12
Yeah.

00:30:19 Speaker_06
Regardless of how Margaret Elliott or any of the 300,000 Elliotts feel about the curse, these three Elliotts, Dylan, Rory and Tim Elliott, they believe in it. And I'm going to help these Elliotts by lifting this curse once and for all.

00:30:53 Speaker_06
My greatest hope for lifting the curse lies with Elliot Clan Chief Margaret, who promised me a bishop. But at this point, I haven't heard from Margaret in weeks, so I send an email asking for a progress report.

00:31:07 Speaker_06
When she replies, I'm surprised by her terseness. No Bishop, she writes.

00:31:12 Speaker_06
I really think there is no point in pursuing this and your friend who complained about his baldness and not growing cabbage will have to put up with it and not blame an entirely irrelevant 16th century curse.

00:31:26 Speaker_06
I'm not sure how to account for the shift in Margaret's tone until I read this. I would be grateful if you would not contact any more clan officers and alarm them unduly.

00:31:37 Speaker_06
It seems some of the Elliotts I spoke to, ever loyal to their chieftain, ratted me out, telling Margaret how I'd been pestering them about their bad luck. As chief, Margaret wants to protect her flock, and not from the curse of the archbishop,

00:31:55 Speaker_06
But from me, it looks like I'm on my own. On the Archdiocese of Glasgow's website, I find the name of the Archbishop's Director of Communications. Mr. Convery. Hi. Thank you so much for talking to me. No problem at all. I'm glad to be able to chat.

00:32:15 Speaker_06
I explained to Ronnie Convery about Dylan and his brothers, the robot muggings, the dog food factory.

00:32:21 Speaker_15
He's worried that the curse from, whatever, 500 years ago is affecting his daily life. Yes.

00:32:31 Speaker_06
Hardy har har if you will, Ronnie Convery. But I thought stuff that happened hundreds of years ago and still affects daily life is the church's bread and butter. Of course I'm too cowardly to actually say that. But I do say this, albeit mincingly.

00:32:47 Speaker_06
Why can't the Archbishop just lift this one little old curse just this one little old time? It's not going to happen.

00:32:54 Speaker_15
It's not like, you know, the archbishop puts on a stole and goes into the cathedral and mutters a few prayers in Latin and sprinkles some holy water around and everything's fixed. I mean, there is no such ceremony for lifting curses.

00:33:08 Speaker_06
And even if there were a ceremony, Ronnie says there's no one to perform it. The last archbishop died just recently, and appointing a new one can take months, even years. Is this something that the Pope could lift?

00:33:22 Speaker_15
I've no idea. To be honest, I wouldn't waste time trying to figure out how you could speak to the Pope because, you know, you'd be here till Doomsday and you wouldn't get near the Pope on something like this.

00:33:33 Speaker_06
Yeah, he's a busy man, I'm sure. I mean, it's not like you could just call the Vatican switchboard and ask to speak to the Pope.

00:33:40 Speaker_10
Absolutely not.

00:33:47 Speaker_06
Turns out, you can call the Vatican switchboard. But the problem?

00:33:52 Speaker_10
Not English, Italian.

00:33:55 Speaker_06
Italiana. Is there anybody that speaks English?

00:34:01 Speaker_10
My sister speaking English. It's OK. Three hours.

00:34:05 Speaker_06
It's three, three. It's true.

00:34:10 Speaker_10
Yes.

00:34:11 Speaker_06
OK. I never imagined the Vatican to be the kind of mom-and-pop operation where you'd have to wait for somebody's sister to get back from her lunch break at the Vatican Quiznos.

00:34:22 Speaker_06
When I phoned back Trey hours later, though, the person who picks up doesn't know what I'm talking about. She was like, yeah, my sister's going to be here later.

00:34:31 Speaker_04
That sounds like Italy to me.

00:34:34 Speaker_06
Yeah. This is my Gimlet coworker, Valentina. She was born in Florence and speaks Italian and agrees to help me phone back a few weeks later. Have you ever called the Vatican before?

00:34:46 Speaker_13
No.

00:34:48 Speaker_06
It turns out that while there isn't an office at the Vatican for curse removal, there is a department for papal blessings. Maybe a strong enough blessing can wipe out a curse, love KOing hate kind of thing.

00:35:00 Speaker_06
So Valentina and I phone up the office of blessings

00:35:07 Speaker_04
Valentina explains the details of my problem, the cabbages and cankers, but the operator says we need a different department. It's an exorcism office. Oh.

00:35:33 Speaker_06
So getting a curse lifted, that falls under the department of exorcism?

00:35:39 Speaker_07
Yeah, that's the only department that can, you know, deal with that. Because we are exactly the opposite, you know?

00:35:49 Speaker_06
Of course. Bless you. Blessings are the opposite of curses.

00:35:54 Speaker_03
Hello, General.

00:36:00 Speaker_06
So I call the switchboard back and ask for the Department of Exorcism. Why, the operator asks. And so, yet again, I explain the ulcerated mouths and talon toes.

00:36:11 Speaker_03
It's really absurd. Absurd? In 2021, we are still thinking about a curse dating back to 1526. Oh, no. Oh, it's five centuries.

00:36:30 Speaker_06
Yes, and so it's about time.

00:36:32 Speaker_03
If Pope Francis hears about that, I don't know how he would react. How would he react? I don't think he would react in a good way.

00:36:44 Speaker_06
Are there special circumstances in which, you know, someone could speak to the Pope? It's not easy, but... But it's happened. It may happen, but it's not so easy. What are the circumstances in which you passed someone through to the Pope? I don't know.

00:37:02 Speaker_06
Does he have a cell phone? Excuse me? Does the Pope have a cell phone? Do people that he travels with have a cell phone? Is it just a landline?

00:37:09 Speaker_02
Sir, I don't know what you really want to do.

00:37:16 Speaker_06
When I tell the operator about the original reason for my call, that I want to be put through to the Department of Exorcisms, I learn there is no such department. Or there is, but it's a department of one.

00:37:28 Speaker_06
There's only one exorcist for the entire Vatican.

00:37:33 Speaker_02
And he has a portable number. You want the number of the portable?

00:37:40 Speaker_06
The portable cellular device of the Pope's personal exorcist Uh, yeah. Yes, please. Oh, one. Okay. Thank you very much for your help. Yes. God bless. Thank you. Wow. This is, uh, it's really great. This is really great. So should we try the, the exorcist?

00:38:12 Speaker_00
Welcome to Verizon Wireless. Your call cannot be completed as the call to party is temporarily unavailable.

00:38:20 Speaker_06
Is that a good sign? It's not a good sign. Once a week for the next eight weeks, Valentina and I try calling him back. The call never goes through. Pronto.

00:38:36 Speaker_06
When I phone the Vatican switchboard again, the operator directs me to the Secretary General of the Diocese of Rome. Who says I'll need to speak with a Padre Milili. No, Milili? But Padre Milili's secretary says he's not the right person either.

00:38:58 Speaker_06
Apparently, since the curse affects not just the Eliots of Rome or Dublin, but all Eliots everywhere, my problem is an international problem.

00:39:08 Speaker_04
She says we need to call the Association of International Exorcists.

00:39:14 Speaker_06
Oh, come on.

00:39:15 Speaker_04
It's called AIE, A-I-E, Associazione Internazionale Esorcisti.

00:39:21 Speaker_06
She just made that up. But it turns out that the International Association of Exorcists has over 800 members, publishes guides for exorcists around the world, and is accredited by the Vatican.

00:39:36 Speaker_06
The AIE and I email back and forth, but eventually the exorcists start giving me the brush off too. It's been nearly a year of unreturned emails, wrong numbers, and all-around royal runarounds. I've been waking up at 4 a.m.

00:39:57 Speaker_06
to call the Vatican so often that at this point, I'm basically on Italian time, which is kind of like being on a vacation in Italy with none of the Italy but all of the sleep deprivation.

00:40:09 Speaker_06
It's while complaining to my wife one day about how sleepy I am all the time, how badly my neck and back hurt, that I'm forced to ask myself, did I have the Elliot curse? If I did, it wouldn't be so bad if I had anything to show for it.

00:40:24 Speaker_06
As it is, though, I feel like I'm in a Dan Brown novel, but the boring parts, like the table of contents or the author's note that nobody reads.

00:40:33 Speaker_06
And to add insult to injury, I've been at this so long that a new Archbishop of Glasgow has finally been installed. So I phone Ronnie Convery and leave half a dozen messages over a number of weeks.

00:40:46 Speaker_06
When someone finally does pick up, rather than being granted an audience, I'm granted this.

00:40:52 Speaker_08
Good afternoon, Archdiocese of Glasgow.

00:40:55 Speaker_06
Hi there. Is Ronnie Convery there?

00:40:59 Speaker_08
I believe he is. Can I ask who's calling?

00:41:02 Speaker_06
Sure. It's Jonathan Goldstein.

00:41:06 Speaker_08
Right. Can you hold for a moment?

00:41:08 Speaker_06
Certainly.

00:41:09 Speaker_08
Hello? Yes. He must have stepped away from his desk.

00:41:17 Speaker_06
Do you think it would be okay to maybe try him a little later?

00:41:23 Speaker_09
Um... His schedule's quite unpredictable, that's the only thing. Right, right, right. He's in and out quite a bit.

00:41:33 Speaker_16
Yeah.

00:41:35 Speaker_06
The only thing left to do is admit defeat. Except for the fact that unbeknownst to Ronnie Convery, the Archbishop, the Vatican, and even me, in the battle of Goldstein versus the curse, the curse was on the ropes.

00:41:59 Speaker_06
Sure, this might have been the heaviest weight yet, but that's the thing about heavies' weight. When you hoist them, there's no finer feeling. But the only thing I've succeeded in hoisting is myself, by my own petards.

00:42:14 Speaker_06
And so, without another choice, I phone Dylan to tell him I failed. Hello? Dylan? Yes, hello, how are you? More importantly, how are you? It's been 14 months since Dylan first reached out to me. Another cursed year has come and gone.

00:42:34 Speaker_06
The thought of how violently, excruciatingly bald he must be at this point is frankly too much to bear. But what Dylan says next, you'll have to hear to believe. How are things?

00:42:48 Speaker_21
Really good. I've had a really great second half of the year, to be honest.

00:42:52 Speaker_06
Yeah.

00:42:53 Speaker_21
Everything seems to be going a bit better, you know.

00:42:56 Speaker_06
Well, you sound different. I mean, your energy feels different.

00:42:59 Speaker_21
Yeah, I just feel totally different. I feel kind of much, much better. I'm just kind of wondering, is there anything tough in the background, curse-wise? Because I've had really, really good second half of the year.

00:43:09 Speaker_06
I never dreamt of hearing the words, really good, let alone really, really good, come from the mouth of Dylan Elliott. What was going on? And on top of that, it's not just Dylan who's been feeling better. in quite good shape at the moment.

00:43:25 Speaker_21
Like, I mean, my brother Tim, he's just gone to a PhD course and he's got funding for it. It's going fantastic.

00:43:33 Speaker_06
This is Tim. Using the word fantastic?

00:43:37 Speaker_16
I'm suddenly working for myself and meeting lots of new, interesting people. and having a really lovely time.

00:43:48 Speaker_06
Is there a moment where you feel like things started to turn? I think probably beginning of the school year, like September. So like in the fall? Yeah. This is a different, you know, a different Tim from when I spoke to you last. Ah, yes, yes.

00:44:03 Speaker_06
No muggings in the past year? Zero. Zero muggings. That's a net positive. How are things for Rory?

00:44:20 Speaker_19
Oh, Rory's having a great time. He just sent me a picture. He's made friends with a donkey, I think it is. It's very small.

00:44:30 Speaker_06
What does that mean?

00:44:31 Speaker_16
Well, he just sent me a picture of him and his friend, who is a donkey, I guess. OK, where is Rory?

00:44:44 Speaker_17
I've moved to the west of Ireland, and I'm just really happy.

00:44:47 Speaker_06
This is Rory.

00:44:48 Speaker_17
I live in here with my partner.

00:44:50 Speaker_06
The donkey? Injury-free. What about the mouth ulcers? Have they cleared up? I don't have any. Any of them. Incredible.

00:44:59 Speaker_17
Not for months.

00:45:02 Speaker_06
And perhaps most importantly, and to my mind most insanely, My ability to grow cabbages has really improved.

00:45:10 Speaker_17
Like, this season, my cabbages have been amazing.

00:45:13 Speaker_06
And as a victory lap, Rory made wine from cabbages.

00:45:18 Speaker_17
It tastes like really strongly alcoholic fermented cabbage juice that's very fizzy.

00:45:25 Speaker_06
When I just looked up cabbage wine, it seems as though like one makes it with 60% cabbages and 40% grapes. I'm full of cabbage. You're going 100% cabbage? I'm full of cabbage. Dylan sounds like a new man. Tim's doing his PhD. Rory's dating a donkey.

00:45:45 Speaker_06
Even the Reaver Pub in Carlisle that closed down, just this year it reopened. What has changed? Was it merely my trying to get the curse lifted that perhaps weakened it?

00:45:57 Speaker_06
Is lifting a curse like attempting to open a pickle jar when it's just so impossible that you give up and accept that you're never going to eat pickles ever again, but then someone comes along and pops it open no problem because of all your hard work?

00:46:12 Speaker_06
Had I loosened the pickle jar? I return to the Elliott Clan Society webpage to re-read the curse for clues.

00:46:21 Speaker_06
Maybe while high-stepping around like a jackass, I'd inadvertently crane-kicked some satanic goblin in the privates, knocking him into a key structural beam of the curse's complex architecture.

00:46:33 Speaker_06
But when I get to the curse's website, I'm shocked by what I find. Because what I find is nothing. In big block letters across the screen, it reads, error, 404, page not found. The curse has been removed. Hello? Oh, hello. Is this Ms. Elliott?

00:47:05 Speaker_06
This is Margaret Elliott speaking, yes. And so, I phone Margaret Elliott, chief of the Elliott Clan Society slash webpage. Oh, hello, this is Jonathan Goldstein calling. I don't know if you remember me, the American podcaster. Yes, yes, I remember.

00:47:23 Speaker_06
Hi, I'm sorry to bother you. Might you just have a couple minutes to speak?

00:47:28 Speaker_05
I just had a... Yeah, I'm not... I mean, yes, I've got... I'm not terribly keen on talking about this curse anymore.

00:47:35 Speaker_06
I long for the olden days when Margaret was terribly keen on talking about this curse.

00:47:41 Speaker_05
Now all I have is a dumb old montage.

00:47:58 Speaker_06
I've made enough calls to people desperate to get off the phone with me to know that I only have a few minutes before Margaret hangs up. So I launch right into my question. Why was the curse taken down from the Elliott clan website?

00:48:11 Speaker_05
I asked for it to be taken down.

00:48:14 Speaker_06
Just out of pure curiosity, was it taken down because of me?

00:48:20 Speaker_05
Yes, I think you probably triggered something and made me think all the more deeply about it than I wanted to. Anyway, so yes, it was your fault. Okay.

00:48:33 Speaker_06
It wasn't my ability to procure a papal blessing, archbishop's recantation, or priestly exorcism that in the end got rid of the curse. It was simply my ability to be annoying. I annoyed that curse right out of existence. On the internet.

00:48:50 Speaker_05
It was all due to you. I mean, you take responsibility.

00:48:54 Speaker_06
I mean, not to, you know, take all the credit, but yeah.

00:48:57 Speaker_05
Yeah, no, take all the credit. Why not?

00:49:04 Speaker_06
Since the Elliott brothers' luck began improving in the fall, I run my dawning theory about why by Margaret. I wonder, well, this might seem silly to you, but might it correspond to the fact that the curse was taken off the website?

00:49:19 Speaker_05
I wouldn't think so.

00:49:21 Speaker_06
No. But the intersection of the Elliott brothers' change in luck and the change in the webpage is just too tantalizing for me to let go of. So, I can't help but continue to toe dance on Margaret's last remaining nerve.

00:49:36 Speaker_06
Do you remember the day that it was removed?

00:49:39 Speaker_05
No, I don't.

00:49:41 Speaker_06
I absolutely don't. No, absolutely don't.

00:49:46 Speaker_05
I don't remember at all. Do not put the two together.

00:49:50 Speaker_06
Dylan Elliott's luck started to change around the end of last year. I think the fall going into winter.

00:49:57 Speaker_05
I'm not going to be sucked into this. I just absolutely think it's entirely irrelevant.

00:50:04 Speaker_06
But that wasn't around the...

00:50:07 Speaker_05
Generally, the... Okay, well, I hope this is all done and dusted now.

00:50:11 Speaker_06
Yes, I think so.

00:50:13 Speaker_05
Good. Great. All right. Have a nice day. Okay, you too. As they say in America.

00:50:17 Speaker_06
Yes, and toodaloo, as they say. Toodaloo, exactly. Yeah.

00:50:23 Speaker_05
We say that all the time.

00:50:26 Speaker_06
After speaking with Margaret, I searched the internet archives and discover, in fact, that indeed the page of the curse was removed around the time of the Elliot's change in fortune.

00:50:42 Speaker_06
Okay, now I'm going to ask you to try to find that page about the Elliott curse. Together, Dylan and I turn to the page of the curse on the Elliott clan website.

00:50:55 Speaker_21
Let me see now. Is it gone? Hang on, let me see.

00:51:02 Speaker_06
What do you see?

00:51:02 Speaker_21
I'm trying to find it here, so I'm trying to find that page.

00:51:06 Speaker_06
That's right, you can't find it.

00:51:07 Speaker_21
Why is that?

00:51:08 Speaker_06
It's been removed.

00:51:10 Speaker_21
Why? How come?

00:51:14 Speaker_06
Lifted not from reality technically, but from the internet. It's very 21st century. Can we just at this point safely say that the curse has been lifted? I mean, yeah, actually. We definitely can, I think.

00:51:29 Speaker_06
And when I ask Rory if he buys the whole internet exorcism idea, scientist that he is, he carefully analyzes the empirical evidence.

00:51:38 Speaker_17
I mean, you know, it's definitely possible. You know, in fact, it's probable. In fact, I think it's definitely the case.

00:51:52 Speaker_06
Next time I'm in Carlisle, I'd like to buy you a pint at the River Pub. Be nice?

00:51:58 Speaker_13
Yeah.

00:51:59 Speaker_06
I'd like to offer you a glass of Russell Sprout Champagne.

00:52:03 Speaker_21
I've got plans with a girlfriend to go off to buy a camper van very shortly.

00:52:10 Speaker_06
Here's Dylan again.

00:52:12 Speaker_21
A camper van. Yeah. When I take it in the road and kind of go traveling, it's just feeling this immense feeling of freedom. It's been kind of incredible.

00:52:22 Speaker_06
Are the Elliott boys better off for anything I did? Who knows? And frankly, at this point, they probably don't even care. When things are going well, we don't think too hard about the why of it. It's only when things are bad that we do.

00:52:36 Speaker_06
That's when we seek out therapists to analyze and exorcists to exercise. When things are going well, we just enjoy them for as long as they last, which usually isn't very long at all. But for now, there's breathing space.

00:52:51 Speaker_06
When is your girlfriend due over? Oh, like imminently. Oh, okay. Enjoy the rest of your day with your girlfriend.

00:52:58 Speaker_21
Thanks a million. Have a great day.

00:53:00 Speaker_06
Okay. Take it easy, Dylan.

00:53:03 Speaker_21
Bye-bye now.

00:53:03 Speaker_06
Bye-bye.

00:53:36 Speaker_11
is returning to its goodwill home now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damage deposit take this moment to decide if we meant it, if we tried

00:54:10 Speaker_06
This episode of Heavyweight was produced by supervising producer Stevie Lane, and me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Mohini Mitgalker. Our senior producer is Khalilah Holt.

00:54:20 Speaker_06
Special thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Bloomberg, Valentina Powers, Max Green, Damiano Marchetti, and Jackie Cohen.

00:54:28 Speaker_06
Bobby Lord mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson, Michael Hurst, Sean Jacoby, Blue Dot Sessions, and he himself, Bobby Lord. Additional music credits can be found on our website, gimletmedia.com slash heavyweight.

00:54:43 Speaker_06
Our theme song is by The Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on Twitter at heavyweight. This was the last episode of the season, but we're already looking for stories for next year.

00:54:54 Speaker_06
So if there's a moment from your past that you need help resolving, please send us an email at heavyweightatgimletmedia.com. Have a happy and safe holiday season.

00:55:03 Speaker_06
Uh, should I ask Auggie if he wants to come up here and wish everyone a happy holiday season? Auggie, do you want to be in the credits?

00:55:11 Speaker_11
Okay, what's happening?

00:55:12 Speaker_06
Have a happy and safe holiday season, Auggie.

00:55:16 Speaker_11
and we'll see you next year.