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Episode: 4.48 - Ether 12-15 - Part 2, Ether and Moroni Testify

Author: Lili Anderson
Duration: 01:07:21

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Full Transcript

00:00:04 Speaker_01
Hi, this is Lily DeHoyos-Anderson, and you're listening to Choosing Glory. This is a continuation, part two, of Ether, chapters 12 to 15. I did sort of reverse order, and I reserved chapter 12 to invite my son, Harvard, to join me and discuss

00:00:23 Speaker_01
some of the concepts in this amazing chapter. Again, please don't think this is comprehensive. You'll find your own gems here and bring your own understanding and hopefully bring the spirit to your study of Ether 12.

00:00:37 Speaker_01
There are a couple of verses that are quoted very often, I would say, from this chapter. And we'll talk about those and others as well. But one of them is, just to start off, is Ether 12.6.

00:00:52 Speaker_00
when Moroni starts talking.

00:00:55 Speaker_01
Good point. This is where Moroni starts talking, and we're going to mention a little about our admiration for Moroni in a moment. But anyway, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

00:01:05 Speaker_01
That is an oft-quoted scripture. And that's a Moroni summary of what he's reading from this great prophet Ether and his take on some of these things.

00:01:17 Speaker_01
often quoted verse from Ether 12 is verse 27, that many of us have memorized over the course of our lives. If men come unto me, I will show unto them their weakness.

00:01:30 Speaker_01
I give unto men weakness that they may be humble, and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me. For if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them."

00:01:42 Speaker_01
This is quoted really often. It's a beautiful concept. It's a beautiful verse and has great meaning for many of us. I've mentioned in the past how my mother was such a great manifestation of this concept.

00:01:59 Speaker_01
She came from really tough background and had what we would probably characterize now as learning disabilities, but she learned how to study, learned how to outline, learned how to learn given her limitations.

00:02:13 Speaker_01
She couldn't listen to anything and remember it. She had to take notes. She had to organize her notes. She had to review and, you know, outline things. And anyway, she became an incredible scholar academically in her field of sociology and also

00:02:29 Speaker_01
of the scriptures, but it was not easy for her to learn. So it is a really great example in my life that I saw early on of people who turn weaknesses into strengths.

00:02:39 Speaker_01
I'm also going to just mention quickly, and again we can come back to these things, but my husband Chris, Harper's dad, had this

00:02:51 Speaker_01
brilliant insight one day, many years ago, decades ago, probably, but he was reading through Ether again, and got to this verse, and he was just silently reading, I was doing something nearby, and he looked up and he said, you know, where God says, I give unto men weakness, he could have with just as much accuracy said, I give unto men parents.

00:03:14 Speaker_01
Obviously not all our weaknesses come from our parents, but it was something that really struck me. And I remember thinking, dang, you know, that has the piercing resonance of truth. Like it really did.

00:03:29 Speaker_01
It seemed so clear that that's part of the plan, that nobody gets perfect parents. And even if we make our best efforts, we have hangups we got from our parents. In many cases, you could go back generationally, right?

00:03:46 Speaker_01
And we do see generational problems that continue through the line until we get to somebody who decides to be a transitional character or a chain breaker. But at any rate, If we take it right, that's not a condemnation of parents.

00:04:01 Speaker_01
It's just an acknowledgment that God set up a plan where we do develop hang-ups. We develop weakness because nobody around us is perfect. And again, it's not, you know, blame yourself if you're a parent.

00:04:15 Speaker_01
Certainly, if you have things to repent of and you can become better, that's terrific. also acknowledge that, like, well, okay, we're not going to know all the right things to do, even if we're trying.

00:04:26 Speaker_01
And if our kids get some hang-ups, well, so did we get hang-ups from our parents, and it's part of the plan. But the recipe for healing is right here.

00:04:35 Speaker_01
If we're humble about it, and we come to Christ, parent, child, grandchild, you know, throughout the lineage, if we come to Christ, He can take those weaknesses and help us create strength. So, anyway.

00:04:49 Speaker_01
I loved that insight and have shared it often, and I share it again today.

00:04:55 Speaker_00
I just want to point out real quick, I'm pretty sure 1227 is also on Dad's missionary plaque, right?

00:05:03 Speaker_01
It is.

00:05:03 Speaker_00
Yeah, just wanted to point that out.

00:05:06 Speaker_01
He liked it from the beginning in his early studies of the Book of Mormon, and it is on his missionary plaque. Good memory there. So we were talking the other day, and you mentioned just how much you admire Moroni.

00:05:20 Speaker_01
You want to talk about that for a minute?

00:05:22 Speaker_00
Yeah. When it comes to Moroni, a lot of my thoughts are almost theoretical, I guess. I like to contextualize things in the scriptures. It kind of helps me I don't know if it helps me learn necessarily.

00:05:37 Speaker_00
I think it does, but it just kind of helps, certainly helps me apply better to my own life. You know, when I, when I put into context exactly what's going on here, which I pointed out, you know, in verse six, that's when Moroni starts talking, right?

00:05:50 Speaker_00
I mean, obviously there's a narrative here happening from one through five, but in six, Moroni intervenes and says, now I'm Moroni. And then he goes on this whole thing of faith.

00:06:01 Speaker_00
And I guess we don't know for sure, but I think we can assume that he took over the plates after his father died. Is that fair?

00:06:12 Speaker_01
Yes, because he's the one that buries them.

00:06:14 Speaker_00
Exactly. And well, I mean, sorry, I mean, we knew that, but I mean, specifically, he didn't touch them before then, is my point, right? And I say, I mean, I was like, yeah, it was like, I don't know if he was necessarily putting in,

00:06:26 Speaker_00
his own thoughts, so to speak, because he even opens the book thinking like writing. I can't remember if it was in Mormon or in Moroni, his own book where he says, you know, I thought, I thought this was it, but here I am alive still.

00:06:39 Speaker_00
So here's more thoughts. Does he do that at the beginning of Moroni or is that even in Mormon, like chapter nine or something?

00:06:46 Speaker_01
I think it must be the beginning of Moroni. Let's see. Yes.

00:06:51 Speaker_00
Yeah.

00:06:51 Speaker_01
Verse one of Moroni. I had not supposed to have written more, but I have not as yet perished.

00:06:57 Speaker_00
Yeah. So what I love about Moroni and what I think is interesting is that he's almost reluctant to include himself in the Book of Mormon.

00:07:04 Speaker_01
It wasn't his plan.

00:07:05 Speaker_00
Yeah. It was never his plan. I don't know if that was because he felt semi-unworthy by comparison to his own father or whatever else, or maybe it was none of that. Maybe he's just timid, right? That's all a possibility.

00:07:16 Speaker_01
Or just maybe not presumptuous. He saw it as his father's mission, which it clearly was.

00:07:22 Speaker_00
Clearly was.

00:07:23 Speaker_01
Mormon does the work of the Book of Mormon, so maybe he just sustained that and never presumed that, like, oh, you're going to be a part of this record also.

00:07:36 Speaker_01
So it does seem like he's a little surprised that he's had, because he does kind of close out with his testimony at the end of his father's book. He bears testimony of Jesus Christ. So it seems like he thinks he's done, but then he's still alive.

00:07:50 Speaker_01
So he's as well at these other plates that I thought would be great second witness of how civilizations can be destroyed.

00:07:57 Speaker_00
And then my question becomes, Does he do that? And then like, where is it in the sequence here? And maybe this is an unanswerable question, but does Ether 12 then come next? Right?

00:08:10 Speaker_01
Is it- Is it where his voice is heard?

00:08:12 Speaker_00
Yeah. Is it Mormon 9, then Ether 12?

00:08:15 Speaker_01
Actually, no, it's earlier because he does tell us why he's including this record and how he had this. And he that he's the one who condensed the book of ether. So this book is also a condensation. So his voice is heard earlier in ether. And I right.

00:08:33 Speaker_00
So I just mean either in general.

00:08:35 Speaker_01
Yes. So he kind of sets the frame. But then he is giving ethers record that he's condensed. But remember the beginning and this is, I mean, these men are so admirable. Honestly, I think they evoke love in us.

00:08:50 Speaker_01
The sacrifices they made, what they had to witness. It was their call to witness the death of their civilization. That's not... Either it is another one who had to witness the death of a civilization. These are heartbreaking times.

00:09:03 Speaker_01
All their families, all their friends, the people that they've been a part of.

00:09:05 Speaker_00
Right, which is a point I was gonna make as well here in a second. I don't mean to like bore our listeners, but this stuff is interesting to me is just like, where does this fit in terms of when he wrote in the Book of Mormon?

00:09:21 Speaker_00
And it sounds like maybe this was one among the first things that he ever contributed to the Book of Mormon. And there is a reason why I'm asking that.

00:09:28 Speaker_00
And the reason is because when you get your kind of your moment, so to speak, not that he's sitting there chomping at the bit, but when he's thinking like, what can I write that could be of great use

00:09:39 Speaker_00
to whoever comes across this record, and his emphasis is faith. And I'd imagine the loneliness he was feeling was palpable. And so what is he relying on to, you know, kind of, I guess the word, what's the word I'm looking for?

00:10:00 Speaker_00
It's like almost like to rectify that. hole that he's feeling.

00:10:06 Speaker_01
To comfort himself. Yeah, just to feel some kind of comfort or sustaining power.

00:10:12 Speaker_00
And I imagine faith played a big role in that. He's sitting there thinking, it's a somber thing. I'm alone. I'm not happy. I just watched the destruction of my civilization. So he chooses to write about faith. And he goes on this… It's beautiful.

00:10:27 Speaker_01
Notice that faith is the big subject of either 12, but he also, he kind of mentions the whole, you know, triple threat, faith, hope, and charity.

00:10:38 Speaker_00
Which he gets to later in his own book, Moroni, right?

00:10:41 Speaker_01
He talks more about it there.

00:10:43 Speaker_00
Yeah. And he gives all these examples, right? Alma and Amulek, the prison walls. One thing I noticed too is that that he points out, like he gives so much information on what faith is and what it does.

00:11:00 Speaker_00
One of which is early on in Ether 12, when he says specifically, you know, in six, you receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

00:11:10 Speaker_00
And then in 12, verse 12, he says, for if there be no faith among the children of men, God can do no miracle among them. Wherefore, he showed not himself until after their faith." Which is basically saying faith is the catalyst.

00:11:24 Speaker_00
Faith always precedes the miracle. So when President Nelson is telling us to seek and expect miracles, he's telling us to be faithful. He's saying, increase your faith, right? Because that's the equation. A miracle will not take place without faith.

00:11:41 Speaker_00
Is that safe to say according to what Moroni is saying?

00:11:45 Speaker_01
And that's such an important point, I'm just going to emphasize it again, verse 12, if there be no faith, God can do no miracle, period.

00:11:54 Speaker_01
So, you're absolutely right that that's what President Nelson has to be including, because he knows this, and then Christ showed not himself until after their faith.

00:12:09 Speaker_01
I wanted to tie this in for a second, because it's been in my mind as I've read through these verses, but 2 Nephi 32. Now, normally we talk about 2 Nephi 31 as the doctrine of Christ, right?

00:12:20 Speaker_01
But I actually really love the summary of the doctrine of Christ in chapter 32. Let me turn to that, where he's just taught the doctrine of Christ, and now in 32, he sort of summarizes and just kind of gives another admonition.

00:12:36 Speaker_01
And this is where he says, what are you supposed to do now after you've entered in by the way? And he says, but why do you ponder these things? Like, this is what you do. And it is really about growing our faith and obedience.

00:12:47 Speaker_01
And we've talked earlier in the year about how one of the great strengtheners of faith is obedience, because Christ can then witness to us the truthfulness of what we're doing after he tries our faith.

00:13:02 Speaker_01
You know, the stories of people who haven't paid their tithing forever, and then they start paying their tithing, and they get a blessing. Now that's, forgive me, but that's kind of stage one, where God gives you that witness.

00:13:14 Speaker_01
And then he wants to see if you can continue in obedience, so that it's not just about getting a check in the mail, it's about

00:13:21 Speaker_01
paying your tithing because you learn to the spiritual blessings that come, you learn that the growth that happens in you when you're not attached to your own stuff, and you acknowledge that it all comes from Christ.

00:13:31 Speaker_01
And all of those things really are these miracles that happen in us this, we've called it spiritual alchemy, where the lead in us becomes refined gold to God.

00:13:41 Speaker_01
So but anyway, here's where he's saying like, of course, you know, come on, you could speak with the tongue of angels if you had the Holy Ghost. Like, you're just at the beginning. It is about growing your faith.

00:13:52 Speaker_01
It's about increasing this capacity for God to manifest himself to you individually and as a people according to your faith. And then, you know, angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, wherefore they speak the words of Christ.

00:14:05 Speaker_01
And then he says this little nice summary that I love, feast upon the words of Christ. I spoke about this back in these days when we were studying the beginning.

00:14:13 Speaker_01
Feast upon the words of Christ, so that's the Scriptures, right, and the words of the prophets. For behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what you should do.

00:14:20 Speaker_01
So that's obedience to the revealed word, what's already out there and available to the general population. And then... And you cannot understand it because you don't ask or knock.

00:14:30 Speaker_01
So you have to study the scriptures, not just read them and ask for the Spirit to help you learn, but whatever. Then in verse 5, if you will enter in by the way, baptism, receive the Holy Ghost. So look at the progression.

00:14:42 Speaker_01
If we obey the words of Christ, we feast on them and we obey, then we qualify for the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost, because the Spirit can't dwell in impure tabernacles. And how do we become pure? Through obedience.

00:14:54 Speaker_01
We stop doing things that offend the Spirit.

00:14:57 Speaker_01
The more we commit to that boringly consistent obedience, then the Holy Ghost can be with us more often until finally, in a sanctifying way, we have that baptism by fire and become cleansed, and then look where it goes.

00:15:14 Speaker_01
Well, the Holy Ghost will tell you all things that you should do. So like, okay, first, it's the generic scriptures, not to diss them in any way. I don't mean that in a bad way, but it's sort of available to everybody. Here are the scriptures.

00:15:24 Speaker_01
Anybody can pick up the Book of Mormon, read it, the Bible, read it, and try to follow the directions, right?

00:15:29 Speaker_01
But if we do them, then we qualify for the next level of revelation, which is the Holy Ghost, which doesn't just say, I mean, of course, it's going to witness all the things that we've read and tried to obey, but it also gives us personal ways to develop our

00:15:46 Speaker_01
talents, to magnify our foreordained callings, to fulfill the measure of our creation, do the things that the patriarchal blessing that we receive talks about might be specific to our calling if we are righteous, and the Holy Ghost helps to reveal those things.

00:16:02 Speaker_01
What do you personally need in your life that isn't just spelled out with the commandments, but how do you deal with this relationship? How do you move forward in this work issue? How do you move forward in your personal

00:16:15 Speaker_01
And then, this is the doctrine of Christ. So he is repeating what he talked about in chapter 31 in a succinct way here, and there is no more doctrine given, because there's no more necessary, until after he

00:16:29 Speaker_01
That's Jesus Christ, shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And that's what Moroni is talking about. And then just to tidy it up, he says, and then what he shall say to you, make sure you observe to do.

00:16:42 Speaker_01
So, in other words, first it's the scriptures that tell you what to do, then it's the Holy Ghost that tells you what to do, and then it's Jesus Christ, the Lord himself, that just like you were talking about in verse 12, he showeth not himself until after their faith.

00:16:57 Speaker_01
Like, he can't do that unless we are exercising faith, but faith in Jesus Christ unto obedience, unto living our covenants in better and better ways, line upon line, precept upon precept. Anyway, I like the tie-in.

00:17:12 Speaker_01
I think you're absolutely right, because the goal is to have that personal audience with Jesus Christ. He is the second comforter. The Holy Ghost is the first, but we shouldn't stop there.

00:17:24 Speaker_01
Christ himself can show himself unto us, as he did to the brother of Jared, as he did to all the prophets, if we continue in faith, which I'm going to put slash obedience, because it's James who says this, right?

00:17:40 Speaker_01
Show me your faith without your works, and I'll show you my faith by my works. You want to see faith? Look at what I do.

00:17:50 Speaker_00
Yeah, no, that's exactly right.

00:17:53 Speaker_00
So kind of proceeding off from there, just other excuses for being maybe a little bit like rigid and not having like some smooth transitions, but I just feel like this is one of the most emotional chapters in the Book of Mormon.

00:18:08 Speaker_00
That's the sense I get from a single person. Now you get plenty of emotional times during the great wars between the Nephites and the Lamanites, Ammon, Amulek, Ammon, all that stuff. There's emotional stories, absolutely.

00:18:22 Speaker_00
But when it comes to the actual narrative and somebody writing in the Book of Mormon, I'm not sure you get a more emotional person writing than this chapter. That's just my opinion.

00:18:31 Speaker_00
And I kind of really see that come out when Moroni starts to doubt his own abilities. Because what he's doing is he's saying, I don't even think I'm a good enough writer. Literally, he says the Gentiles are going to mock our words, my words.

00:18:44 Speaker_00
And he's timid. It's again, it's kind of like he's a little bit reluctant. Yeah, he's reluctant. He's pessimistic about his ability. And what is, I'm sure you remember this, but what does Christ say back to him?

00:18:57 Speaker_01
it matters not unto you. If the Gentiles have not charity, so what?

00:19:02 Speaker_00
I know it's a loaded question, but then he specifically says one of the, I mean, it almost seems like it's a line out of left field. You're like, fools mock, but they shall mourn. You're kind of like, wow.

00:19:15 Speaker_00
I mean, I don't think there are many exclamation points in the book of Mormon, but I feel like there should be one here. This one might've been omitted. I don't know. Maybe it's again, Moroni being timid.

00:19:25 Speaker_00
and saying, I don't wanna be the exclamation point guy, but there's clearly like this very direct statement that Christ makes to Moroni, stop worrying, fools mock, but they shall mourn.

00:19:38 Speaker_00
And then my grace is sufficient for the meek, they shall take no advantage of your weakness. And then that goes into my favorite verse, at least to this point in my life, in the Book of Mormon, which is Ether 1227.

00:19:49 Speaker_00
And what I love about this is it's something that Again, these are my own thoughts.

00:19:54 Speaker_00
I'm not saying like, this is what it's saying, but this is what I feel like it says, and this is what it speaks to me when it says it, which is God saying that he gave us this weakness.

00:20:04 Speaker_00
Now, I remember being in an institute class and the teacher, he was a great guy. I loved his lessons. This was out in Texas Tech. And he made the point that we shouldn't repent for our weaknesses because God gave them to us.

00:20:21 Speaker_00
And I love that idea that as a concept, but what I would add to it. is how do we transform them? Because he gave them to us for a reason, and 1227 is the reason. He said, so that they may be strong.

00:20:37 Speaker_00
Now, it made me think a little bit more along the lines of what this verse is really saying, I think, is that God gave us all our characteristics that we possess, and within each and every individual characteristic that we have, it's like it exists on a spectrum.

00:20:53 Speaker_00
There's a strength and there's a weakness. depending on how we utilize it, depending on how we, you know, take advantage of this characteristic. And you can almost play this.

00:21:06 Speaker_01
The context. What's that? Some things like being a peacemaker in some areas, okay, peacemaker is good. Exactly. But being non-contentious and passive is great, but it can go to an extreme where we don't stand up for the truth.

00:21:19 Speaker_00
Yeah, you can play this game of like antonyms, like what's the opposite? You know, you could say like, well, for somebody whose strength is teaching, maybe they aren't the best at learning because they have to learn a specific way.

00:21:36 Speaker_01
Yeah, or they could be, they could turn bombastic or pedantic and preachy.

00:21:42 Speaker_00
Or that, exactly. And so I'm going to put myself on the spot here. So you and I talked years ago about

00:21:48 Speaker_00
I can't remember what brought it up, but I kind of, now again, I'm putting myself on the spot here, but I'm also a little bit patting myself on the back, which I'm sorry to do that, but I guess it's harder to talk about other people in these contexts, I guess.

00:22:02 Speaker_00
I remember asking you one time when I was growing up, I felt like it always took a little bit longer for things to resonate that we talk about as a family. And it didn't seem like just because I was the youngest,

00:22:15 Speaker_00
It seemed like, wait a second, like I felt like I needed things to be explained to me in a different, more specific or some type of way where it resonated. And I remember you agreed with me. You may not remember this, but you agreed with me.

00:22:29 Speaker_00
And you're like, yeah, I mean, I could see that kind of, like, maybe I remember, like, I can't remember what you said specifically, but that wasn't really the point. It wasn't my point to be like, oh, I have a learning disability.

00:22:40 Speaker_00
I certainly didn't have a learning disability. We just all learn in different ways. But then what I think I realized about myself, and this is the part where I'm a little bit patting myself on the back, and I'm sorry about that.

00:22:50 Speaker_00
But I think it's good to be introspective like this for all of us. And this is just one example of this. I have many years now of teaching under my belt. I've taught at the college level for many years.

00:23:05 Speaker_00
I've taught in church callings for many years, and it's my favorite thing to do.

00:23:10 Speaker_00
And I think the reason why I like it as much as I do, and the reason why I think other people tend to enjoy it as well, is because I'm able to teach it in a way where I understand it, which then carries over to helping other people understand it, maybe at a broader level.

00:23:29 Speaker_00
So what was once a pretty big weakness, and what could maybe not have been transformed and curated the right way, could have stayed a weakness, and maybe even brought on other weaknesses, where it's like, well, I don't do that, so I'm just not going to try, became a strength.

00:23:48 Speaker_00
And that's, I think, what is kind of my sentiment. That reflects my sentiment towards the scripture the best, I think.

00:23:55 Speaker_01
That's a great example. And I think it's, as long as we're grateful for those experiences. I don't think it's pride. I really don't. I think one of the antidotes to pride is gratitude.

00:24:06 Speaker_01
Not like, look how good I am, but just like, I'm really grateful that this happened. It was a fulfillment of this very principle.

00:24:14 Speaker_00
And I'm not calling myself any type of amazing teacher or anything like that.

00:24:20 Speaker_01
But I heard you teach, and you're a good teacher. And I appreciate that, because I hadn't thought of that connection before. But I think that is a good example.

00:24:29 Speaker_01
I'm trying to think of, I mean, I'm sure there are many in my life, but I don't, I mean, I should have thought of something about this.

00:24:35 Speaker_01
And one thing that comes to me is something that, again, kind of came out of a conversation with a dad that I'm really grateful for. I have been oriented towards obedience throughout my life.

00:24:48 Speaker_01
I'm not saying I was perfect, I'm not saying I didn't make mistakes or have moments or whatever, but I've been sort of a naturally compliant child and then, you know, just kind of continued.

00:24:58 Speaker_01
But I think that because I did study the scriptures and I embraced the principles,

00:25:08 Speaker_01
I became pretty confident about my opinions about things, because—and I'm sure they still come across sounding pretty confident in my opinions, but I hope that people can see that they're rooted in what I've learned from the Lord and from the gospel, because that's really where they're rooted.

00:25:23 Speaker_01
But where it can become a weakness was kind of pointed out by Dad one time in a very kind way. He was not—we weren't disagreeing about anything or having an argument, but he just pointed out something that was really helpful to me. How did he put it?

00:25:39 Speaker_01
But he said something about... He said, and I had been teaching at BYU for a while, and I had taught in church classes for a long time, and like you said, I had a lot of experiences teaching.

00:25:47 Speaker_01
And he said something like, well, you know, you're right a lot of the time, but you sort of expect people to believe you.

00:25:56 Speaker_01
And he said, I'm sure that your students at BYU and people who like your church lessons, you know, are oriented toward believing what you say. you know, not everybody is going to automatically believe and you just should kind of be aware of that.

00:26:15 Speaker_01
And that was dad with great insight that I wasn't aware of, you know, pointing out a weakness I wasn't aware of that I was kind of coming in just sort of with the anticipation that people were going to believe what I said.

00:26:28 Speaker_01
And it was really helpful feedback bit because I looked at it and I thought, that is a weakness. If I, come in with the expectation that people are just going to automatically agree with me.

00:26:41 Speaker_01
And it's true that most of my students did because I was coming from a position of authority. I had a lot of information that I had accumulated and studied over the years.

00:26:52 Speaker_01
But it was a good reminder that I needed to be humble about approaching topics and not expecting that everybody was automatically going to believe what I said.

00:27:02 Speaker_01
And certainly in our relationship, too, that I would be more willing to be persuasive rather than just expect that. I don't know if that fits for you. It does for me, because it was a weakness. I wasn't even really aware of it.

00:27:16 Speaker_01
And then getting the information, I was like, gosh, that is really true. And I want to address it.

00:27:21 Speaker_01
I want to make it possible for me to incorporate that and become better at something that, like you said, strengths and weaknesses are on the same spectrum in some respects. President Oaks, back when he was in the quorum, even had a speech on this.

00:27:35 Speaker_01
It was published in the Ensign decades ago, probably some almost 30 years ago now. And he said that. He said, our strengths are the same as our weaknesses.

00:27:44 Speaker_01
not as a condemnation, just as an invitation to magnify the good parts and try to minimize the weak parts, which is what 27 is about. So how does that happen?

00:27:53 Speaker_00
I mean, think about it in terms of like how you talk about harness testosterone, right? I mean, testosterone can very much be a strength, but it can be a major weakness, right? Like that's, it's kind of along the same idea as people.

00:28:06 Speaker_01
That's a good example.

00:28:08 Speaker_00
You know?

00:28:08 Speaker_01
That's true, because there's a power there that is so positive and such a blessing to the world if it's handled correctly. And if it's not handled correctly, it's destructive, or can be. Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good example.

00:28:23 Speaker_01
And I would say everything can be like that. I remember talking to a client who got into some acting for a while. And he was still in college. I think he was a returned missionary. told me that he had kind of a problem with telling the truth.

00:28:41 Speaker_01
And it's interesting because acting is playing a part, right?

00:28:45 Speaker_01
So you're, you know, they say you're lying for a living or something in a way, not, you know, not with intention necessarily to injure, but just you're trying to persuade something about being persuasive about something that's not real.

00:28:56 Speaker_01
And, and I remember telling him, well, I think this has the potential to be a tremendous strength because if you have the power to persuade people, that's a great gift, but you had darn well better be careful with that because again, like a power that's uncontrolled,

00:29:11 Speaker_01
And if you turn it to deception or you turn it toward taking advantage of people or not taking responsibility when you should, like you're condemning yourself and you could lead a lot of people into bad ways because you are persuasive.

00:29:26 Speaker_01
So you have this strength, don't let it turn into the weakness that right now is threatening. And he took that pretty well.

00:29:33 Speaker_01
He was like, gosh, I hadn't thought of it that way, but this is a gift and it's a strength, but I'm letting it become a weakness and it's going to destroy me and others.

00:29:41 Speaker_01
So, it's a good awareness that how God works with us, and anytime we do have a strength, I think this is a good caution to look at it. Where could it be a weakness, or where might I be ignoring part of it that needs some refinement or attention?

00:29:58 Speaker_01
Obviously, the big way to find out what those are is to go to our knees and ask the Lord as we've been admonished again and again, what lack I yet? What can I do to make weaknesses strong? What weakness should I work on next?

00:30:14 Speaker_01
Because God's on our side, obviously, and wants all of that to work out in the best way. If we're willing, he'll help. I think you make good points about Moroni, too. I like that. I think there is a reluctance that comes through.

00:30:25 Speaker_01
Just to finish that part where he is worried about the Gentiles, he goes on and talks about... Which is a hilarious notion when you think about it, because his writing's incredible. That's a good point. We're moved by it.

00:30:39 Speaker_01
Like I said, we kind of have this love for Moroni that emerges from these limited writings that he includes of his own voice. But anyway, he goes on and talks about all this.

00:30:53 Speaker_01
And then the end of that question again, he's already said, fools mock, but they shall mourn. And then in verse 35, if the Gentiles have not charity because of our weakness, that thou will prove him.

00:31:06 Speaker_01
I mean, he's still praying about this, and take away their talent and what they've received and given to them who have more abundantly.

00:31:11 Speaker_01
In other words, like, you know, okay, if they don't have charity, then you're going to have, you know, God will work with them. And then he prayed that in verse 36, God would give unto the Gentiles grace that they might have charity.

00:31:23 Speaker_01
And this is an interesting answer in verse 37 that the Lord gives him. If they have not charity, it mattereth not unto thee. Let it go, Moroni. That's on them. If they don't have charity, that's not your problem. You have fulfilled your stewardship.

00:31:39 Speaker_01
I think that's great counsel to any of us who are trying to do what's right. And if people mock, or if people reject us, or people, for whatever reason, are unkind about it or unreceptive, that's not on us.

00:31:53 Speaker_01
I mean, not that we shouldn't pray for people, but ultimately, that's their choice. And God is saying, you can't take that on. You can't take that on. If they don't have charity,

00:32:04 Speaker_00
It's not your problem. The universal law is that you can't take away people's agency, right?

00:32:08 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah. It's got to be their choice, but don't own it. Don't own it. You own your stuff. Don't try to own their stuff. And then, how does he finish that up?

00:32:19 Speaker_00
I love this part because it kind of goes against what we were talking about. He says, because thou hast seen thy weakness, thou shalt be made strong, which makes me think, by the way, really, we should pray to be aware of our weaknesses.

00:32:32 Speaker_00
I think that's really important. Treat them honestly.

00:32:35 Speaker_01
Okay. I love that. And you've talked about this before, so share a little bit about that.

00:32:41 Speaker_00
Well, I just think, I mean, I didn't really have a ton of thoughts on this, but I just intellectual honesty is just like that, that I think creates, or lack thereof, I should say, creates so many problems in our lives on a personal level.

00:32:57 Speaker_00
And so if you have a weakness and it's identified, don't try and justify it. Don't try and cover it up. Don't try and deny it or anything. Own it, identify it, and then the promise is God will make it strong. I mean, Moroni literally does that.

00:33:12 Speaker_00
He says, my writing is terrible, which it isn't by the way, but he says, thou has made us mighty in word by faith, but thou has not made us mighty in writing.

00:33:20 Speaker_01
Which can only make you think, how did they speak?

00:33:23 Speaker_00
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so he goes and he talks about that whole thing. And then here's the opportunity. It's Christ saying, shouldn't matter to you what they think anyway. And for one, I'm going to make it strong.

00:33:35 Speaker_00
And so if we don't honestly assess ourselves and what our weaknesses are, there will be no possibility to have them become strengths.

00:33:45 Speaker_01
And I'm going to put this as a pitch into people in relationships because a lot... Well, again, in counseling, I've said this to so many people, they said, and this is not a license to criticize.

00:34:00 Speaker_01
Criticism is personal, like you're a bad person or I don't like you because... If it's that kind of attack or demeaning response, that's not what I'm talking about here, but I'm talking about genuine feedback.

00:34:14 Speaker_01
Chris gave to me, like your dad gave to me. He wasn't being unkind. He wasn't angry. He was just like, hey, here's something to think about. And that was so helpful to me, and it certainly wasn't the only time.

00:34:26 Speaker_01
And I likewise would try to sometimes try to follow the spirit, not in an attitude of criticism or anything ever demeaning, but just like, hey, are you aware of this?

00:34:37 Speaker_01
Or here might be something to think about, and try to do it with kindness and love and all of those things to reassure that I'm on your side, but I have the best seat in the house. And that's what I've told my clients.

00:34:48 Speaker_01
Who has the best seat in the house to observe you? generally your husband or your wife, you know, so like, honor that.

00:34:56 Speaker_01
Again, if they're being really critical, you can say like, look, don't make this personal, but I do want to hear your feedback, because you see me in a way I don't see myself. So now the Spirit sees everything and Christ sees everything.

00:35:08 Speaker_01
So going to him on our knees is really the answer always. And even if we do hear it from a spouse, we should go to our knees and say like, Lord, you know, is this a problem that I should work on? I think it probably is, and we can then address it.

00:35:20 Speaker_01
But I guess my point is, value that feedback and don't, as you said, don't justify, don't rationalize, don't attack back and say, like, well, that's not me. And, you know, what about you? Like, none of that is going to help us.

00:35:35 Speaker_01
And we can learn a lot from the people that we work with, from the people that we interact with, from the people that we live with, that, like, they see things that we may not see.

00:35:44 Speaker_01
And if we are honest enough and open enough and not defensive, now part of that, what helps us prevent ourselves from going defensive is trusting our worth with God. Like, knowing that I have the potential to be like God, and He loves me.

00:36:01 Speaker_01
I am one of His beloved children, and He has given me all the potential I need to become like Him. So, I'm not going to get... you know, locked in despair or become depressed, because I'm not there yet.

00:36:14 Speaker_01
And I am going to be assured that that potential exists, and God will help me.

00:36:19 Speaker_01
So I'm not going to be devastated if someone comes and says, you know, you're being kind of impatient with the kids, or, you know, I think you're being a little controlling here, or could you be a little more open to this or whatever, again, we're not talking about

00:36:30 Speaker_01
slamming criticism that's attacking or whatever.

00:36:33 Speaker_01
We're just talking about like being sufficiently confident about our worth that if we, some people close to us, a co-worker could come up and say like, hey, you know what, I think I need a little bit of this from you or, you know, I've noticed this, is there a way you can address that?

00:36:49 Speaker_01
That we're like, okay, let me think about that and see what I can do to help turn that weakness into a strength rather than, again, immediately defending ourselves or attacking or justifying or rationalizing.

00:36:59 Speaker_01
And that does require this level of, I would say, humility. I don't know where you can divide this because it's all overlapping.

00:37:06 Speaker_01
Honesty, like you say, this kind of intellectual honesty where we are willing to listen and consider and not just blind ourselves to our own weaknesses because

00:37:18 Speaker_01
it makes us feel somehow better or attack back because, you know, if I tear them down, then I don't feel so bad about what they just said about me. And I do think we get really valuable people from the people who are close to us.

00:37:29 Speaker_01
I would include our children, again, not allowing them to be disrespectful. I mean, there can be consequences if somebody is super disrespectful, but to be open. And if our kids even come and say,

00:37:41 Speaker_01
You know, I've kind of noticed this to consider that and say like, boy, if that's coming across to them in this way, I'm willing to look in the mirror.

00:37:52 Speaker_01
Where we see really big trouble in marriages, for instance, is when one partner is willing to look themselves in the mirror and say, yeah, maybe I am needing to address that. Or maybe I'm not too good at that.

00:38:03 Speaker_00
I think I know what's coming.

00:38:04 Speaker_01
What's really sad is that the other one never looks in the mirror. And so they just keep dishing it out, and the other one keeps taking it. And that's not good.

00:38:13 Speaker_00
That imbalance has got to be damning to any relationship, right?

00:38:17 Speaker_01
Yeah.

00:38:17 Speaker_00
I would say along with what you're saying, too, that's why it's and granted, if you check off the boxes that you're talking about, it's important to set yourself up to even receive the feedback because so many people are cautious and timid in their approach and telling you because they're like, I don't want them to react poorly.

00:38:35 Speaker_00
But if they see that you do really walk humbly and honestly, they might be like, hey, by the way, I noticed this. And just because I know you, I feel like you'd want to know that.

00:38:48 Speaker_01
I like that. I like that because we can put up a wall before anybody even, you know, talks to us and then they don't even dare approach us because we've got these clear defenses.

00:38:58 Speaker_00
And I've been guilty of that plenty of times. I mean, I'm not saying this is like, oh, I do this and that works great for me. It's like, no, I need to improve that constantly.

00:39:07 Speaker_01
It's a good reminder for everybody. I was talking to a couple recently. They're not yet married, but they're engaged and they're really nice, decent people. And they're looking for some,

00:39:17 Speaker_01
counsel before they take it to the next step, but he's kind of a quieter guy, doesn't like conflict or confrontation. And she's more extroverted and so on. So when she's not happy about something, she kind of jumps on him.

00:39:34 Speaker_01
And if he tries to express his feelings, and she acknowledged this, so bless her for the intellectual honesty, because she said, I was talking about that dynamic and how you have to have a safe relationship.

00:39:45 Speaker_01
That's actually kind of what you're talking about. You have to give that that safety to the people around you so that they don't see a barrier or a wall where I'm going to just deflect anything or attack back.

00:39:57 Speaker_01
And so I was talking about safety and she goes, well, that's true. I'm not really making him safe because if when he tries to tell me something, if I don't like it, I attack. And she just said, I attack.

00:40:07 Speaker_01
And he was kind of like, yeah, you know, and I'm like, okay, well, you're not ever going to get to where you want to go as a couple. If that's how he feels, he's just going to stop talking. And, and then, Both of you lose.

00:40:20 Speaker_01
There's no growth that's gonna happen if there's not a safe place. So I'm gonna emphasize that again.

00:40:25 Speaker_01
I mean, a lot of people talk about how communication is so important and a lot of couples will come in and they're sort of self-diagnosed with a communication problem. And honestly, a lot of times it's not communication, it's safety.

00:40:36 Speaker_01
It's like, you're not making it safe to communicate. So if you can take those barriers down, be humble, be open, not be proud and feel confident enough that what you're going to get in feedback you can deal with honestly.

00:40:52 Speaker_01
and with clarity, without defensiveness, without feeling depressed or feeling like a worthless human being. You know, there's this sweet spot of knowing our worth and recognizing that we're far away from where we can fulfill our potential.

00:41:07 Speaker_01
So, I'm not going to get depressed because I'm not there yet. I'm going to be open and eager to

00:41:14 Speaker_01
Get feedback from people who care about me and I'm gonna make that safe I'm gonna create safety so that they don't feel like they're gonna get jumped on or I just won't listen, you know Yeah, it's huge.

00:41:26 Speaker_01
I think that's huge relationships Strikes you about this. Those are those are I think beautiful punchlines and I do love this example like you just said that Moroni himself talks about and he builds up to that beautiful verse 27 by saying I

00:41:42 Speaker_01
kind of concerned that my weakness in writing is going to open me up for the Gentiles to reject this. And they're just going to mock it. And then it is ironic, because you're like, dang, this is such beautiful language.

00:41:52 Speaker_00
Yeah.

00:41:52 Speaker_01
Which again, lends... It's interesting that he felt insecure about that. Yeah.

00:41:57 Speaker_00
Lends credence to the idea that this is one of the first times he ever wrote in the Book of Mormon, or at least went on a long You know, had some space, like, yeah, because he's so, you know, timid about it.

00:42:10 Speaker_00
But also wanted to point out, and I don't know if you pointed this out before, but I think I was the one that told this to you. If not, no biggie. I know we've talked about it before.

00:42:19 Speaker_00
I mean, I know I thought of this on my own, at least I'll say that, but that doesn't mean nobody else has thought of it. He's clearly the namesake of Captain Moroni.

00:42:27 Speaker_00
I think Mormon's most admired figure in the Book of Mormon had to have been Captain Moroni and he names his own son after him, right?

00:42:36 Speaker_00
He has one of the most memorable verses written about any single person in the Book of Mormon to Captain Moroni dedicated to him. and then names his son Moroni. I think it's kind of a cool connection there as well.

00:42:49 Speaker_01
I think that's beautiful. And you're right, the verse you're referring to is the one that says, if all men had been and were and ever would be like unto Captain Moroni, the very foundations of hell would be shaken, right? Is that one? Yeah.

00:43:01 Speaker_01
Yeah, you're right. Those are Mormon's words. He is making an editorial comment about that. And then he does say that these other great men of that time were similar.

00:43:10 Speaker_00
The next verse is amazing too. Yeah.

00:43:13 Speaker_01
Isn't that the one that mentions the other men who were like it?

00:43:17 Speaker_00
Yeah, it says like, and it says the sons of Mosiah and Alma and all of his sons.

00:43:21 Speaker_00
I don't know if it says all, but it says his sons, which plural, and you could, you could just, you may as well surmise that that applies to Corianton, who really sinned against, you know,

00:43:35 Speaker_01
with the harlot, Isabel.

00:43:37 Speaker_00
Yeah, the commandments and everything. And so that, like, there was a redemption story there with Corian most likely as well. Alma himself being a redemption story. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, he would understand that more than anyone.

00:43:48 Speaker_00
To kind of close the loop on what we were talking about in Ether, what I love about this, and it's kind of this, to me, it's beautiful, especially because I really do feel like this was Moroni at his loneliness. And he goes through this whole thing.

00:44:05 Speaker_00
He's reluctant in even writing this in the first place.

00:44:07 Speaker_00
And then he gives some of the most powerful information that we have in a single chapter about faith and kind of what we can utilize faith to do, which is to, you know, see miracles, to witness miracles, to be the catalyst to miracles.

00:44:21 Speaker_00
And he goes through the whole thing, talks about his own experiences and everything like this. And then he closes it out. And one of the last verses in this chapter, and he says specifically,

00:44:31 Speaker_00
And then shall ye know in verse 39, that I have seen Jesus, that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in mine own language concerning these things.

00:44:45 Speaker_00
And what I absolutely love about that is the tender mercy of Christ himself, who sees Moroni in his loneliest state and appears to him and has a conversation face to face. And something tells me,

00:44:59 Speaker_00
Obviously in that moment Moroni all of a sudden wasn't so lonely, but I think even moving forward when he wrote more and he finished out his journey up until he buried the plates and then up until he died, probably didn't feel as lonely anymore.

00:45:14 Speaker_01
Well, Christ calls himself the second comforter. So you're right, that would have brought incredible comfort to him that his Savior had come and spoken with him face to face. And then what does he say here?

00:45:29 Speaker_01
almost at the end, now I would, verse 41, I would commend you to seek this Jesus. I love that. Just seek Him, because you can find Him, and He can minister. That's what we were just reading in 2 Nephi 32, that if we

00:45:47 Speaker_01
follow that pattern of obedience to the words of Christ that are revealed in the scriptures and by the words of the prophet, and then we can receive the Holy Ghost who will tell us what to do.

00:45:55 Speaker_01
And then we can have the ministry of Christ himself, the second comforter to comfort, to teach, to direct. It's so beautiful. And then he testifies of God, the Father, the Lord, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. And may he abide in you forever.

00:46:15 Speaker_01
So it's really tender, and I think that's a really great point, that in his loneliness, I mean, some of the most chilling words in the whole Book of Mormon, I don't know if chilling is the right word, but did they just go right to your core, is when he says at the end of his father's book, the very early writings that he just is trying to close out his father's book, where he says, I am alone.

00:46:40 Speaker_01
And that's just heart-wrenching to me.

00:46:43 Speaker_00
I'm going to pull that up again. I don't even remember that specifically.

00:46:46 Speaker_01
It's right at the end of his father's book, when he tells us that his father has been killed by the Lamanites. And it's just so heart-wrenching.

00:47:02 Speaker_00
Which now would be a good time to mention the amazing parallel between Moroni and Ether himself, the actual prophet Ether, who was also dwelling alone in all this and witnessing the demise of his own community as well, his society.

00:47:18 Speaker_00
Because he even goes to visit Coriantum, and I'm sure you'll cover that at some point, but he comes by and he says, was it worth it? And Coriantum, of course, is just like, of course not. I mean, I don't think he says that, but how could he?

00:47:32 Speaker_01
It's tragic, it's tragic. And we don't know how Ether dies, and he even mentions in his last verse that whether or not I'm translated or have to suffer death in the flesh.

00:47:41 Speaker_01
Like, he doesn't know if God will spare him that, or if he will just have to live alone for a while, and we don't know the answer to that. But he says it doesn't matter as long as I'm worthy of the kingdom of God. There it is, it's chapter 8.

00:47:54 Speaker_00
I mean, for all we know, Lamanites could have killed Moroni.

00:47:59 Speaker_01
It's not impossible.

00:48:01 Speaker_00
His mission was finished at that point, right?

00:48:05 Speaker_01
Well, except that there are Latter-day Prophets who have said that Moroni went around and dedicated several temple sites for the Latter-days.

00:48:13 Speaker_00
The Prophets have said that? Because I've heard people make that claim. I didn't know Prophets have said that.

00:48:17 Speaker_01
Well, they even had a Manti temple pageant. They don't do pageants anymore, but they used to have a pageant every summer. And part of it was including Moroni coming and dedicating the temple ground at Manti. So that's one that has been saved.

00:48:33 Speaker_00
But even then, that could have been him making his way eastward.

00:48:36 Speaker_01
Yeah.

00:48:38 Speaker_00
And then buries the plates, and then what? Just saying.

00:48:41 Speaker_01
Yeah, we don't know how it ends. So it's not impossible.

00:48:44 Speaker_00
But if he did, he went out valiantly. We know that.

00:48:47 Speaker_01
That we do know.

00:48:48 Speaker_00
Probably took at least 10 Lamanites with him. That's how it happened.

00:48:53 Speaker_01
If it came to that. Chapter 8, I, Moroni, do finish the record of my father Mormon. And then he has a few things to write. As you say, he doesn't think he's going to, at this point, he doesn't think he's going to condense the record of Ether.

00:49:05 Speaker_01
And he certainly doesn't think he's going to have time to write his own stuff, which interestingly, again, with the humility that you mentioned and the maybe sort of reluctant author that he may have been,

00:49:17 Speaker_01
Most of Moroni, I don't know if it's most, but a lot of Moroni are letters from his father.

00:49:21 Speaker_01
So again, it's kind of like, if I have space, I'm going to share you more of the teachings of this great man that I was privileged to call father and that I learned from. And so it's not a lot of him. He is definitely a reluctant author.

00:49:36 Speaker_01
And then verse three, I even remain alone to write this sad tale. And then again, in verse five, toward the end, partway through, if I had room upon the plates, but I have not, and or I have none, for I am alone."

00:49:53 Speaker_01
So those words, I mean, it's just so poignant that he puts it in writing, that I'm alone. And then he does have more time.

00:50:02 Speaker_01
And actually, I was sort of curious about that, but we don't really get an explanation of how he managed to have space for the Book of Ether. But somehow he does, and God provides when it's necessary, and this record is so powerful.

00:50:14 Speaker_01
that it's a huge blessing to us that Moroni felt the Spirit tell him to condense this record and record it, add it to his father's record, and then to give the last words that we're gonna talk about in the next few weeks of his own last testimony, more teachings from his father.

00:50:31 Speaker_01
I wanna mention also in Ether 12, and this is obviously not, I mean, he does talk about all these three elements, but it's verse four,

00:50:42 Speaker_01
where he really does emphasize faith, which, as I've again quoted my husband Chris, Harper's dad, saying years ago, early in our marriage, when I was just talking about how all these, you know, we thought were trials back then, and they did seem like trials.

00:51:02 Speaker_01
They were trials, but we were just gearing up, I guess. But I would sometimes then talking to dad say, This is just about faith, isn't it? Like, it's just about faith. And remember, you know, we've defined that again and again.

00:51:15 Speaker_01
Moroni defines it also as believing what we don't see. And it's true. that it's that simple. I can't see how God is going to pull this out of the fire. I can't see how I'm going to survive this.

00:51:30 Speaker_01
I can't see how this weakness is going to become a strength. I don't get it. I don't see how the Gentiles aren't going to mock. Whatever our concerns are, God is asking us to believe in his promises. I've made you promises.

00:51:46 Speaker_01
I can make your weaknesses strong. heal your wounds. I can cleanse you of your mistakes. I can help you fulfill your potential. Believe it, even if you can't see it.

00:51:59 Speaker_01
People whose children leave the church, which is such a big issue right now, and I know it brings heartbreak to so many people, believe in the sealing covenant. Believe in the promises I have made that the family will

00:52:13 Speaker_01
not be lost, whatever that looks like, and he doesn't abrogate agency, he's not going to force anybody to the celestial kingdom, but he's not going to deny his own promises that there will be eternal family connections, that great love that he gave us for our family members, for our children, that that will be honored, and that there will be a blessing.

00:52:31 Speaker_01
for parents who persist in righteousness. But okay, anyway, Dad's comment was, yes, faith, because I was starting to kind of complain to myself almost about, but sharing with Dad that like, how come I'm stuck on this first principle?

00:52:44 Speaker_01
Faith is the first principle. And I keep coming back to like, well, I need more faith. I need more faith. And I felt kind of remedial about it. Because I'm like, this is just the first principle. And there are all these other principles.

00:52:57 Speaker_01
And I keep needing to grow my faith. And Dad said, It's the first principle, but it's also the last principle, because by faith, the worlds were created.

00:53:06 Speaker_01
So then I envisioned it more like going around the Monopoly board and every time you pass, go getting $200 for faith. If you persist, if you continue in obedience, if you keep stretching the faith we have over the doubts, over the

00:53:21 Speaker_01
Unbelief over the the worries that we have and we put them on the altar and we say I'm going to believe I'm going to believe I can't see it.

00:53:30 Speaker_01
I Don't know how this is gonna happen, but I'm going to believe it and that ends up being the power that Moroni is talking about. Look how am and did this look how Alma did this?

00:53:39 Speaker_01
Look how all these what it is these miracles happen because they believed what they couldn't see and Nobody saw it and then said, oh, well, now this can happen.

00:53:48 Speaker_01
It was like, I'm going to believe that God has given us this opportunity or that he has these promises made for us. But OK, I'm going back to verse 4. Whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world.

00:54:00 Speaker_01
Yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the soul of man, which would make them sure and steadfast, all abounding in good works, being led to glorify God."

00:54:13 Speaker_01
And then, of course, he adds charity at the end of his chapter. And he mentions it somewhere else, but I'm not going to worry about finding it.

00:54:19 Speaker_01
But my point is that he does mention faith, hope, and charity, which, again, like you said, in his own book, he's going to really explore that.

00:54:27 Speaker_00
He does that a ton of times in his own life, eight or seven or something.

00:54:32 Speaker_01
It's a powerful, powerful part of his message that he brings right up to the end of his ministry of writing. But I'm going to say, too, that let's just think about hope, because he defines hope here.

00:54:44 Speaker_01
Hope for a better world, hope for a place at the right hand of God, which has to come from faith. We have to believe that God will keep his promises to us, that we can be exalted if we persist, not if we're perfect, not if we're finished in this life.

00:55:02 Speaker_01
but if we are diligent and we desire it and move in that direction with hope. Now, I just want to point out because I think many of the Book of Mormon prophets in various language

00:55:15 Speaker_01
express that hope at the end of their lives, or at the end of their written testimonies.

00:55:20 Speaker_01
And they'll say things like, you know, I know I will be at the pleasing bar of Christ, or I will, you know, that my garments will be washed white in the blood of the Lamb. That is gospel hope.

00:55:31 Speaker_01
So I want to separate it from like, boy, I hope it doesn't rain tomorrow. you know, or I hope it's good weather for this, or I hope I, you know, that this business scheme works out, or this effort.

00:55:42 Speaker_01
It's not earthly hope, it's hope in Christ, keeping his promises. So there's a real tie-in with faith, that Christ says, through me, your garments can be washed clean, no matter what you have done. Do you believe that? Do you have hope in me?

00:55:59 Speaker_01
And gospel hope is hope in Christ. It's not just hope. Years ago, I was just running some errands. This was before I went back to grad school or anything. I was still a full-time mom. And I was running errands around town, and I saw a bumper sticker.

00:56:13 Speaker_01
I've only seen it once in my whole life. I don't know why it wasn't a bestseller. And at first, I didn't like it. Since I gave up hope, I feel much better." At first I thought, that's going to bleak. That seems a little depressing.

00:56:28 Speaker_01
I don't know if I really, you know, sign on with that. I really don't know why it wasn't a bestseller. It's caught my attention, and I thought about it as I was running the errands.

00:56:37 Speaker_01
I kept thinking about it, and I thought, well, that's actually really great advice. I've shared it with a lot of clients. As long as I separate my hope in Christ. I will never give up my hope in Christ. But that's the only hope that's worth having.

00:56:54 Speaker_01
We hope people will change. I sure hope this person comes to Jesus. I sure hope this person starts being better about this. I hope, you know, whatever it is we're hoping that is earthly hope. Honestly, you know, when we give it up, we do feel better.

00:57:11 Speaker_00
I'm not saying we should have no... That's one of the themes of Shawshank Redemption.

00:57:17 Speaker_01
Tell me.

00:57:19 Speaker_00
Red and Andy have the whole, like, disagreement about it. Because Andy's saying, like, how he hopes to have something better than what they're experiencing. And Red, Morgan Freeman's character, says, get that out of your mind. Hope could kill a man.

00:57:32 Speaker_01
Oh, yeah. Oh, OK. That's right. That's right.

00:57:37 Speaker_00
Yeah. And then the very end, as he's narrating the movie, Red, Morgan Freeman, is saying like, as he got paroled and everything and that he gets, he finds a note for like, he, he was told to go find, or he was told to go to a tree. Yeah.

00:57:53 Speaker_00
And in that, under that tree was a message from Andy that gave him a letter that gave him money and said, meet me here.

00:57:59 Speaker_00
And then he's going through this kind of this monologue and he's saying, I hope, I hope, like, I, like, I hope for this, I hope for that, I hope for better, whatever it is that I'm going to go experience, you know?

00:58:09 Speaker_00
And I don't obviously remember it, not even close to verbatim, but It is kind of a beautiful message, but it also counters your point to some degree.

00:58:18 Speaker_01
Well, I guess, let me augment my message.

00:58:21 Speaker_00
Hope can drive a man insane. That's what Redd says. Hope can drive a man insane.

00:58:25 Speaker_01
When you're stuck, when you're depending on other people or for justice in some cases to play out in this life, because I can't tell you how often I've worked with clients who've been messed over by the justice system when it comes to child custody or child support or whatever.

00:58:40 Speaker_01
We don't really get justice in this life in a lot of areas. And if we keep hoping for it, in a way, it does kill you because you're just putting good energy after bad, and you don't have any control over it.

00:58:51 Speaker_01
So if you keep hoping for something that's not promised for this life, it can destroy. But let me modify what I said a moment ago, because I do think that there is a kind of hope I mean, ultimately, it's hope in Christ.

00:59:10 Speaker_01
Honestly, that is the hope that lasts, because people who die in the concentration camps or have been to die, it goes to the flames. They gave up on their hope for this life. And even ether, it doesn't matter if I die or I'm translated, whatever it is.

00:59:24 Speaker_01
Moroni shows that same kind of hope. All I care about is that my garments are washed clean in the blood of the Lamb. That's what I care about. That's what matters to me, and that's what keeps me going no matter how hard or how alone I am.

00:59:38 Speaker_01
But I am gonna say, especially for our young people, like our children and, anyway, young people who are still in that spiritual maturation process, it's really important that people have hope.

00:59:56 Speaker_01
When we lose hope, a lot of times our values go out the windows. If it doesn't matter, if I'm never gonna have- Isn't that what nihilism is? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You're right.

01:00:07 Speaker_01
I've talked to clients over the years and young people who get stuck and they don't feel any hope. If they're in a situation, they're getting bullied and nobody's listening to them and their parents are just like, you got to suck it up.

01:00:19 Speaker_01
That's dangerous because if a kid doesn't have hope, then why does it matter to follow the rules? Why does it matter to try? pray and parents do have a responsibility to check with their kids periodically and kind of see where they are.

01:00:32 Speaker_01
You know, do you have a positive view of the future? Do you see good things coming? Again, not unrealistically, but just like, and hopefully we do start to, using that word hopefully, help turn them toward Jesus Christ. If you do what's right, things

01:00:49 Speaker_01
work out as they should. And God is kind, and especially with our young people, he doesn't want them to be crushed by life.

01:01:00 Speaker_00
You say things will work out as they should, but ultimately it's like DNC 121. It's like, it's not necessarily as you feel they should, but it's that all things will happen for their good.

01:01:10 Speaker_01
That's right. That's what I mean. As they should in God's view, because he knows what he's doing. and he knows what he's doing with us. So yeah, that's what I mean.

01:01:20 Speaker_01
And that's an important clarification, but we can help our kids start to have a vision of that even as they're young, but we do need to check with them because when people, I mean, honestly, that's what causes suicide is when people really give up on all hope.

01:01:34 Speaker_00
Depression is that way.

01:01:37 Speaker_01
And then of course it's on that spectrum of suicide. So it's important to check with the people that we have a stewardship. with, and of course, as the spirit moves this with anybody, to see how are things going.

01:01:50 Speaker_01
Because people get stuck and they lose hope, and that's kind of the story of Les Mis, right? I mean, that's why he stole the loaf of bread. He had no hope. He had no hope. They didn't have money for medicine. His sister's son is sick and dying.

01:02:04 Speaker_01
They're starving to death. Like, does it matter if I steal this loaf of bread? Well, you know, it cost him his life, basically, for so many decades. But that's what happens. And my mother pointed that out when I was quite young.

01:02:16 Speaker_01
She said it's dangerous to live without any hope. Her family went through really difficult times after they left her abusive father, and it was to her mother and her sister.

01:02:25 Speaker_01
and herself and the three of them were extremely poor but they were able to live with that extreme privation because they were saving every penny for coming to America and she tells how they went to the bank every time they got a paycheck and they deposited most of it into savings and just took out what they absolutely had to to eat very poor food and just get through and not buy new clothes or anything but she said it was okay because we kept looking at that bank balance growing

01:02:54 Speaker_01
that savings account grow, and we kept saying to each other, look, we're going to America. I think it took them like eight years that they made it. Well, not all of it.

01:03:05 Speaker_01
Well, yeah, all those years were pretty much in poverty, but some of it was with her father at the beginning. But when they left him, they were even more poor. Yeah, it was potatoes and saltwater.

01:03:16 Speaker_00
Yeah, potatoes and saltwater.

01:03:20 Speaker_01
That's basically what they ate every day for years. And I remember asking her, how did you guys do it? And she said, we had hope. We had hope.

01:03:29 Speaker_01
We saw that account growing little tiny bits at a time, but we knew it was gonna eventually get to where we could come to America. So hope is powerful, but again, the hope that really ultimately lets us conquer whatever

01:03:45 Speaker_01
purifying trial God puts us through is hope in Christ. Ether expresses it at the last verse of the book. Moroni expresses it right here in 12. And all the prophets basically talk about that. I know that if I persist, I will be raised up in the last day.

01:04:04 Speaker_01
I know that that's going to happen. That's a gospel hope, because they haven't seen it yet. But they believe with all their hearts. So like I said, overlap between faith and hope. Any other thoughts about that?

01:04:18 Speaker_00
We've kind of gone a long time, but I think I'm I think I'm good on my end. I just FYI, I've yawned a few times that is not a reflection of the content. That's just because I generally have an early morning wake up call and

01:04:31 Speaker_01
It's bedtime, so... It's time to close it up. Well, Harper, thank you very much for coming on.

01:04:38 Speaker_01
I was looking forward to this because I know you've had some... You've had a real appreciation and love for Moroni, and I really have felt that this year, too, again. And I'm really grateful that God gave him

01:04:56 Speaker_01
Although he had a very lonely life toward the end of his years, however long that lasted, that God gave him this incredible mission to be the angel that came to Joseph Smith.

01:05:10 Speaker_00
Yeah, I love that too.

01:05:12 Speaker_01
It's so tender that he could see the fulfillment of all the promises that had been made to Lehi and Nephi all the way through.

01:05:25 Speaker_01
that this record would come in the last days out of the earth, out of the dust, and their voices would be heard to the whole world, the entire world, and they could testify of Christ.

01:05:40 Speaker_01
I'm just going to mention here that I do have some extra content coming on Patreon again.

01:05:45 Speaker_01
I posted a couple of things recently, but I also have some nice thoughts about the brother of Jared that I found and about his faith and why he couldn't be kept from within the veil.

01:05:58 Speaker_01
It's a speech by Jeffrey Hall, and I'm going to share that on Patreon. If you're interested, you can find the links below. Also, I just wanted to mention that the holidays are coming.

01:06:08 Speaker_01
In some ways, they're going to be hard for me this year, but if any of you are looking for a gift, my book has made a gift to a lot of people over the years, and there still are enough available, I think, for Christmas.

01:06:23 Speaker_01
Russian plenty of time to get it. If you go to the website, there's also a link below to buy that. It's also available on Kindle and Audible.

01:06:31 Speaker_01
And my granddaughters are fulfilling the orders these days, two of my granddaughters, and I'm really grateful for that. So they get them out quite quickly. So

01:06:40 Speaker_01
I'm going to be reprinting either at the end of the year or the beginning of next year, but I'm pretty sure we have plenty to get through the holidays. If you're interested, please order the earlier the better.

01:06:49 Speaker_01
There would be a little bit of a pause if we run out, but only two or three weeks and then we'll have more. Thanks to all of you, and thanks to you, Harper.

01:06:58 Speaker_00
Of course, I'm happy to do it. It's always fun.

01:07:03 Speaker_01
Thanks also to my husband, Chris Anderson, and Doug Larson, Point Digital. Take care.