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Episode: #2222 - John Fetterman

Author: Joe Rogan
Duration: 02:15:30

Episode Shownotes

John Fetterman is an American politician serving as the junior United States senator from Pennsylvania since 2023. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Full Transcript

00:00:01 Speaker_01
Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

00:00:06 Speaker_03
Showing my day, Joe Rogan podcast, my night, all day. All right, we're rolling. What's happening? Nice to meet you.

00:00:15 Speaker_02
Oh, hey, man. It's awesome to be here, man. Really. I got to say hi to my son. He's just so thrilled. He's 15, and he literally freaked out. He's like, oh my God, and all of his friends are going to definitely be watching, too. What's his name? Yeah.

00:00:27 Speaker_03
What's his name?

00:00:28 Speaker_02
Carl with a K, and I met a Carl in the lobby, but it's a C, but... That's not a human, a non-human Carl.

00:00:35 Speaker_03
Yeah, well, what's up, human Carl? So, first of all, are you the only guy that figured out that you don't have to wear suits when you're a senator? Yeah, no, it's... I'm sorry, what was that?

00:00:49 Speaker_03
I said, are you the only guy that figured out that you don't have to wear suits as a senator?

00:00:54 Speaker_02
Oh, okay. Yeah, no. Well, I know it seems strange, but it's like... I mean, I'm a bigger guy.

00:01:03 Speaker_02
And I don't really can't afford custom anyway, and I hate I'm claustrophobic and I hate them being in that kind of shit and I've always dressed like like shit and And I know and then that whole thing kind of got away I

00:01:19 Speaker_02
of us, people assumed that there was a dress code issue there. And I'm like, no, I wasn't behind that, behind that. But of course, everybody pointed at the dude that dresses like a slob.

00:01:30 Speaker_02
And then the whole nation just had like a meltdown, like, oh my God, the Senate's on fire because I dress like a slob. But my life is just much better in D.C.

00:01:40 Speaker_02
that unless that I'm gonna be on the floor, that I'm not gonna be, you're never gonna see me in a suit. And I think that's a more authentic kind of way that I live. And I don't judge anybody on how they dress or those things. I just dress this way.

00:01:56 Speaker_02
And there's also practical issues as well, too. Like, I have chopstick legs, and I have no ass, and I can't keep pants on. And hoodies, and hoodies, it's like I don't have to iron that shit. You know, so it's just like easy, it's comfort.

00:02:12 Speaker_02
And it's like, I just feel like that's, I mean, and if somebody judged me, and people have said that, but it's like I'd rather have somebody know.

00:02:19 Speaker_02
And I promise you, a lot of people and dudes, especially in Western Pennsylvania, love to wear suits all year. I mean, excuse me, shorts all year, and dress like that. But to me, it's about comfort and practical.

00:02:34 Speaker_03
Well, I mean, it makes sense. The whole dress code thing of wearing suits and you're more serious because you have certain clothing on, it seems pretty silly. Sorry, what's that? So let's tell everybody what's going on with your iPad.

00:02:52 Speaker_03
So because you had a stroke, you have difficulty. Do you have difficulty hearing?

00:02:58 Speaker_02
Well, no, I can hear just perfectly right now. And but there's just the one kind of a lingering issue. There's a lingering issue. And sometimes I lose just a couple of steps on time. And then now after that, that's the only thing.

00:03:14 Speaker_02
And thankfully, the stroke never touched my intellect things. But the stroke nearly killed me. And again, I don't. But I use captioning in situations just like this, in interviews. So that's why I can really make sure exactly what's being said.

00:03:32 Speaker_02
And then I can able to just participate. If somebody wears the glasses, it doesn't mean that they're illiterate. It just means that's a tool that allows them to participate or drive or those things. And it's that same thing.

00:03:43 Speaker_02
And a lot of people across America use captioning to watch movies and TV. And that's really no different than that. So it doesn't affect your intellect, but it does affect your hearing? Is that what's going on? No, I can hear and I can listen to music.

00:03:58 Speaker_02
The difference with music, for example, is that as long as there's muscle memory, I can remember all those kinds of music things. But it seems unlikely at this point that they're not going to be any kind of new favorites emerging like that.

00:04:13 Speaker_02
So you essentially only can listen to the same old music forever? Yeah, no, it's, yeah, it's, yeah, I mean, all of the classics, like, you know, Metallica, Motorhead, The Cult, all those kinds of things.

00:04:28 Speaker_02
Like, I haven't lost any of, you know, Def Lepp and those things. Well, and I saw the record of Whitesnake, but all those things. Yeah, no, I mean, I think we're both in the 50s, right? And, you know, we grew up with the crew.

00:04:42 Speaker_02
and all those kinds of things. So some people might judge me based on my taste on music, but I mean, that's kind of where it's at.

00:04:52 Speaker_03
Listen, people are going to judge you no matter what. You're a big, giant guy who wears hoodies and you're a senator. No matter what, they're going to judge you. Who cares?

00:05:01 Speaker_03
But I'm just trying to understand what is going on with the captioning because you can hear, but so there's some sort of a disconnect between hearing and understanding. What is it?

00:05:14 Speaker_02
Yeah, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a disconnect. It's just about being precise on that, just to make sure that, so if like for an interview, just to make sure of those things. So it's really just about captioning.

00:05:28 Speaker_02
Really, it's just a tool, no difference. I mean, this is like my eyes, in the sense for glasses. Right, I understand.

00:05:35 Speaker_03
So it just gives you a little bit more precision in what you're saying and understanding. What was it like running for senator right after recovering from a stroke? That had to be a nightmare.

00:05:47 Speaker_02
Yeah, I don't recommend that. I don't recommend that. Because you seem to have recovered quite a bit since then. Oh, yeah. No. During that time, you were really struggling. Oh, sure. Absolutely. Like it was it was it was a rough conversation after that.

00:06:11 Speaker_02
They brought me into the hospital and then I went under and then I woke up. And they said, they said, hey, we got it. We got it. We got the clot, the clot that essentially just but killed me. And I'm like, oh, that's good.

00:06:30 Speaker_02
And then just kind of went back under. And at that point, I had no idea where we were at on those things. And then I had the next morning, I woke up and then a doctor came on and he had kind of a, a grim kind of a look on his face and things.

00:06:50 Speaker_02
And my dad was there sitting next to me at the bed. And I was like, well, hey, Doc, I mean, what's what things what do you think? What do you like? And he's like, well, you know, you're your heart is functioning at an incredibly low kinds of percentage.

00:07:08 Speaker_02
And I'm like, well, what do you think? And he was like, well, I mean, there's some issues. And I'm like, well, Are we talking?

00:07:21 Speaker_03
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00:10:42 Speaker_02
A year, a year kind of thing. And I'm like... And this was all while you were running for Senate? Yeah, yeah. This was after... This was three days before the primary. Oh, my God. Yeah, I was on my way to an event.

00:11:02 Speaker_02
And my wife, Giselle, she's like, you're having a stroke. Because they had that classic kinds of... Where, you know, half of my face, I didn't know that, but it kind of just... Yeah, just...

00:11:13 Speaker_02
Slumped yeah, and and and then they hotline me over to the hospital And I wouldn't I wouldn't have survived if we were in a different.

00:11:22 Speaker_02
I mean there's parts of Pennsylvania And that's it that's part of the tragic that if I wasn't close to the the kinds of hospital that I was It's a hundred percent that I wouldn't have survived that

00:11:34 Speaker_02
And it got me there in enough time and they were able to, there was an expert there. And I actually had, I met that doctor that literally saved my life. And I'm like, oh my God. And he usually wasn't based in that hospital.

00:11:49 Speaker_02
He was usually out of Delaware, but he happened to be there. And he was here to give me an award for being that kind of an advocate for those things. You deserve the award on that. That's incredibly lucky.

00:12:10 Speaker_02
And then I asked, really looking for like a countdown of like, well, what's the prognosis? And I really, there wasn't much there on that. And I had to like, was I going to survive for long? Or what's that gonna look?

00:12:26 Speaker_02
And then of course, the entire majority on the Senate really was on the middle of that. And that's a big responsibility after that. And then, so the primary, it happened. And I actually had a really strong win. And I won all of 67 counties.

00:12:46 Speaker_02
Pennsylvania has 67 counties, and we carried every county, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and all across Pennsylvania. But at that point, I had a responsibility. It's like, am I able to recover, or where kind of, Am I gonna be okay?

00:13:02 Speaker_02
And I wouldn't recommend being in that situation, but I made a commitment. More than anything, I was more worried about being around to be a dad. I mean, I have three young kids and my wife, she lived through all of this.

00:13:21 Speaker_02
So at that point, it started, I was in the hospital for about 10 days. And yeah, and I start to get better and better. The strength started to come back a little bit, but it was still rough. And it was very, very clear, though, that I had a capacity to

00:13:39 Speaker_02
It's been impaired on hearing and those kinds of interaction and those things. But that's the thing.

00:13:47 Speaker_02
But I had to decide by August 15th, and that's my birthday, ironically, that if I step down by then or before, then they're going to have to find somebody to replace me on the primary. And that was going to be my dropout day on that day.

00:14:06 Speaker_03
So what was the operation?

00:14:08 Speaker_02
How did they do it? How did they remove the clot? Well, it's, I mean, I had to originally, I had to go back to, I have to learn how to talk and speak. You know, I went to a speech therapist and have interaction and those kinds of things.

00:14:29 Speaker_02
And my hearing and those kinds of things were still impacted by that. And they had to monitor my heart because it was, it effectively stopped, I found out after the fact that it actually stopped.

00:14:42 Speaker_02
And then my heart had to recover, so there was two kinds of things working there, you know, my heart. And then right before the primary, they walked in and they said, well, here, here's what I suggest. Here's what I suggest.

00:14:56 Speaker_02
Now we are going to put a pacemaker. We're going to put in a pacemaker. And we're like, hey, that's the best thing. So they put that device right here. And for anyone, if you're not really what that is, a pacemaker, but that manages your heart.

00:15:12 Speaker_02
Because I had a significant issue with AFib. And that's really what did that to my heart. And they put that in and then that was right before the primary and they put me under and I... What year was this?

00:15:33 Speaker_03
This was 22 22 and before you had this stroke Had you ever had any issues before with clotting or anything?

00:15:42 Speaker_02
It was just like not with clotting not with clotting You know my I have for good for good things and for for bad things My heart was just like my father's you know, and he had an issue with a fib and he was in the hospital So it's a genetic.

00:15:56 Speaker_02
Yeah a genetic and And, but I didn't, it was never an idea. It was never an idea that I was going to even having a stroke. That wasn't part of the, at least my thinking. I knew that I was in distress. You know, I could tell that my heart was, was,

00:16:13 Speaker_02
was in problem, and I was just gonna get through this primary. I mean, there's a lot running on that.

00:16:19 Speaker_02
And then, it didn't work out because the stroke hit three days before, and then that forced me, and that put me on an incredibly different kind of a path after that.

00:16:31 Speaker_03
And so, where do they go in when they're removing the clot? Do they have to cut your skull open? Like, how do they get it out of there?

00:16:38 Speaker_02
They went up in your vein, in your leg. And they went up in it. And it's a remarkable technology. Through your leg? Yeah. All the way up to your brain. And they just sucked it out. Wow. And they actually had an x-ray or whatever.

00:16:54 Speaker_02
And you could say, hey, we got it out. And I actually got to see, although I really was still kind of out of it. But that was the clot that all but took my life.

00:17:07 Speaker_02
I mean, there were a lot of things there, you know, suddenly your mortality was kind of like put right there in front of it.

00:17:13 Speaker_03
Yeah.

00:17:14 Speaker_02
And through that.

00:17:15 Speaker_03
Do they have any idea what caused the clot? Do they understand, like, what happened to you? My grandmother had an aneurysm. And it was a horrible situation. They didn't find her for several hours.

00:17:31 Speaker_03
Afterwards, my grandfather came home, and she wasn't in the house. And then he found her in the backyard. She had collapsed. And they gave her 72 hours to live. And she lived for 12 years like that. It was horrible. My grandfather had to take care of her.

00:17:45 Speaker_03
It was really, really rough. So I'm always really concerned with that kind of stuff. What causes it? Do they know?

00:17:56 Speaker_02
Yeah, well, it's. I mean, I had for the first time in my life, and I hope it's the last time that I'm confronted by this idea that the doctors weren't able to provide any kinds of

00:18:12 Speaker_02
certainty or it's like oh yeah man you're going to be okay or things are going to be okay that that wasn't uh so they don't know what caused it well i mean it was a fib and and and my heart weakened and the stress of the of the primary and on the ongoing kinds of issues uh it was already weakened about that issue earlier

00:18:33 Speaker_02
And everything kind of came together and I guess my heart deteriorated to the point where that caused the clot. And then the clot, that's what nearly took my life.

00:18:46 Speaker_03
So then you have to go to work. So now you are an elected senator and you have to go to work in the middle of recovery.

00:18:56 Speaker_02
Yeah. I think I mean, I had a significant responsibility to stay in that and winning through all of those things. And that was difficult enough. It was an important conversation. And we had to run a campaign. We had to run a campaign.

00:19:26 Speaker_02
When I was, it was difficult. And I wasn't working at the kind of capacity that was necessary. And that's, we had to run up to the 15th of August to decide if we're going to stay in that because there's a lot riding on that.

00:19:40 Speaker_03
And you were also competing against Dr. Oz, which was weird. You know, this guy who's a celebrity doctor, who's

00:19:50 Speaker_02
At least a little shading. No, it necessarily was the, yeah, I think, you know, we were talking about captioning earlier right now, and I think we're having an issue with some of the captioning right now here.

00:20:08 Speaker_03
Is it not showing up?

00:20:10 Speaker_02
Yeah, I think there's a there's a little bit of a delay.

00:20:13 Speaker_03
Well, maybe it's the way I said shady Yeah, he's a little shady like he had been trouble for talking about miracle diet Remedies that weren't miracles at all and I believe he got brought in front of Congress So it was a little odd that that guy was running for Senate at all.

00:20:29 Speaker_03
Was he from Pennsylvania? I

00:20:32 Speaker_02
Yeah, well, Dr. Oz, yeah, I think from a technology, I think we have to address the captioning.

00:20:37 Speaker_03
Oh, is it messing up right now?

00:20:39 Speaker_02
Yeah, I think the captioning. The captioning is running a little bit behind on here. OK. So can we make some technological— Stop and have her come fix it. Sure. Yeah. OK.

00:20:47 Speaker_03
We'll have her come fix it. Yeah. OK. We'll pause here, ladies and gentlemen. We'll be right back.

00:20:52 Speaker_02
Yeah, I think we're I think we are good. I think we're good to go. We yeah, we put this on the Wi-Fi So and it's it's working great.

00:20:58 Speaker_03
All right, we're back So what I was just saying that it was odd that you were running against dr. Oz and he was just kind of dr. Oz.

00:21:04 Speaker_02
Yeah, I mean Yeah, and and he's he used to be people used to thought he was like really brilliant. I mean, yeah, I he was like an amazing kind of surgeon, celebrity. And then he turned his career into like on TV.

00:21:20 Speaker_02
And then he started to pitch more kinds of questionable kinds of things and kind of bullshit kind of stuff. And I don't understand why somebody would change his reputation. I mean, he was really revered in that.

00:21:33 Speaker_02
And I was, I wouldn't even be, I would have been comfortable to him operate on me. But he kind of lost that. And what was also pretty funny is that he clearly he lived in New Jersey. And so we were like, hey, we need to use that and point out that.

00:21:49 Speaker_02
So we just we decided early on that we're going to just like, hey, you know, it matters. It's like, I mean, there's nothing wrong with living on New Jersey, but there probably is an issue if you're running for the Senate.

00:22:02 Speaker_02
So and and I really have like an ethos is that I'm I'm not ever going to be mean and I'm not going to be personal about that.

00:22:09 Speaker_02
So we tried to have a lot of fun with the fact that he lives in New Jersey and we just really just kept hitting him hitting him and we had Snooki. did like a cameo saying, gee, Mehmet, good luck.

00:22:21 Speaker_02
You know, I know things are going rough now, but you're going to be able to come back to New Jersey. And that got viral. And we did a lot of those viral kinds of moments. And, you know, they have this thing where they have what's really penetrated.

00:22:34 Speaker_02
And, you know, they have circles on things like what's really part of, like, people asking about Dr. Oz. And one of those zeros, the Os, was he's weird. But the biggest one, New Jersey. I mean, literally, New Jersey was. That was the biggest one?

00:22:46 Speaker_03
Yeah.

00:22:47 Speaker_02
Well, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, even though they're neighbors, they do have a bit of a rivalry. Uh, yeah, well, of course. And, you know, people have to understand that it's like, it's like that funny thing.

00:22:57 Speaker_02
And I mean, it borders with, with Pennsylvania and, and that it really matters. It matters. And of course, uh, Dr. Oz was, uh, he was strange, uh, in some sense. And we always try to have fun with making fun of him. Are you a fan?

00:23:12 Speaker_02
Are you a fan of the Simpsons? Yeah. Yeah. But we, we matched up perfectly with Dr. Nick. You know, Dr. Nick, Dr. Oz. And we found all the weird shit that Dr. Nick would say. And then they have a clip of Dr. Oz saying those kinds of things.

00:23:26 Speaker_02
And then that's where it was. And we had a lot of fun with that. And we all figured out, well, We have, we essentially, we chose to kind of empty the clip, metaphorically, and really start hitting him.

00:23:41 Speaker_02
You know, we went up on TV throughout the summer, and he was really put on his back. And he was essentially thinking he could kind of take the summer off. And then our polling, we got up about 10, 11 points and things.

00:23:54 Speaker_02
if anyone's listening ever heard of the 538, they track on those races. And the highest percentage we had to win was, I think, about 84%. And things kept winning great, really, really great.

00:24:09 Speaker_02
And then I had to decide on my birthday on August 15th, and things were going so well. And I thought things, I'm like, okay. And then we decided to stay on that race. And that's what we did. And then,

00:24:23 Speaker_02
you know, post-Labor Day when, and oh my gosh, we just got, we got nuked in a way that it's never been experienced that before. And then... How so? What do you mean? Oh, $100 million of paid media to destroy you. I mean, just tear you apart.

00:24:45 Speaker_02
Every aspect of your life. $100 million they spent. $100 million.

00:24:49 Speaker_03
For a job that pays how much?

00:24:51 Speaker_02
Oh, it came from PACS, from Dr. Oz. Dr. Oz put in, I think, $28 million.

00:24:58 Speaker_03
How crazy is that? Because what does it pay, being a senator?

00:25:04 Speaker_02
You know, pay being a senator? It's $174,000. Can I talk about this? Please. I don't understand why, you know, some incredibly wealthy dudes will spend tens and tens of millions of dollars just to take that.

00:25:22 Speaker_02
And I try to tell people there's no glamour here. I just talked about that in an interview.

00:25:28 Speaker_03
Do you think he wanted to become president and this was like a step to being president?

00:25:32 Speaker_02
I mean, I guess everybody wants the Iron Throne, I guess, but it's really not.

00:25:38 Speaker_02
And but it also it's a different it's a different kinds of skills And it really doesn't transfer over very well on that but right now in Pennsylvania right now David McCormick a Connecticut man, Connecticut, man He's running in Pennsylvania and he lives in Connecticut and he's incredibly wealthy I think he's worth three or four hundred million dollars and he's spending the same race in Wisconsin.

00:26:03 Speaker_02
They're dropping crazy And really, that's an important conversation that the real problem in American politics for me is Citizens United and unlimited money. when they decided that money is speech.

00:26:20 Speaker_02
And now that turns the whole thing in an incredibly damaging. Right now, there's been at least more than half a billion dollars, half a billion dollars on the table in Pennsylvania, just for president, not just the Senate races and other house seats.

00:26:38 Speaker_02
And I was the most, at least at that point, was the most expensive Senate race in history. And it was over 300, $330 million for that one seat. And all of those dollars, they're spent to destroy and tear you apart.

00:26:56 Speaker_02
And then Fox News, I was their top target for four months. And social media, and I stayed out of that. I didn't enjoy it, but social media, all the conservative influencers, everything, and it just tore me apart.

00:27:12 Speaker_02
And at that point, at the end of September, It was, I mean, I couldn't get away from it. And it really, it's like, until you've had $100 million to destroy you, it's a next level kind of thing.

00:27:29 Speaker_02
And then everyone was, they were saying, well, he's a vegetable, you know, he's a retard, or he's lost his brain and all kinds of things. And then that wasn't true.

00:27:40 Speaker_02
But the kinds of terrible things and those kinds of very personal things, and it just got incredibly ugly in a way.

00:27:48 Speaker_03
Yeah, that has got to be a terrible experience to realize that there's so much money being spent just to attack you and that you're a part of this very, very large and corrupt machine that's going after you just because they want to control the state.

00:28:05 Speaker_03
And it's a giant swing state, of course.

00:28:07 Speaker_02
And yeah, the Senate, the whole Senate. Yeah. The whole Senate was. In fact, we actually we flipped that seat. And that's the first time, I think, in the 40s or 50s that we've had two Democratic senators in Pennsylvania.

00:28:20 Speaker_02
Usually it's been a Dem and a Republican. And now because we flipped that seat, that's it's mathematically it's possible to retain the majority in the Senate. But it's going to be still fairly difficult because we have Montana.

00:28:34 Speaker_02
very, very red state, obviously. And that's really what the Republicans have put a significant bet to make sure that they can flip Montana.

00:28:43 Speaker_02
And then if Montana falls, then they're going to keep the majority or they're going to get the majority unless there's like a really surprise one. But that it may be more kind of difficult. Do you think that money is

00:28:58 Speaker_03
the biggest problem in American politics, this ability to spend insane amounts of money.

00:29:04 Speaker_02
Yeah. I mean, just imagine if you were a movie studio, and you're going to put out a movie. And a rival studio has $100 million to tell America, that movie sucks. That's shit. And it's crazy.

00:29:17 Speaker_02
And there's always going to be unlimited money, because it's all about the control of the Senate, or the House, or the presidency. And when money is speech, it's going to be unlimited. And what happens, it's like, well, that's TV and on social.

00:29:36 Speaker_02
And it's going to be, how can I destroy and break this individual? And that's where it is. And it gets incredibly personal. And it has an impact. I mean, certainly it has for me.

00:29:50 Speaker_02
And until we have unlimited money, it's gonna get more and more mean, personal, and expensive.

00:29:57 Speaker_02
And if you look at the billions of dollars that's spent, how what we could have done for our society, the kinds of rules that we could build and other things, if we didn't spend all those money to tear each other apart.

00:30:12 Speaker_03
Yeah, it's very strange, and it sets a terrible tone for the rest of the country. Because these races, even though when they're over, people go back to a certain level of civility, it's already been established that this is on the table.

00:30:28 Speaker_03
These personal attacks, this evil, vicious propaganda, taking things out of context, conflating people's words.

00:30:37 Speaker_02
Yeah, you have, you know, you take any, a quote, Take it out of context. Click that shit, put $10 million behind that, and that's in front of millions of eyeballs right there spontaneously on that. And it's directly right at you.

00:30:53 Speaker_02
And it's unlimited money. I mean, when you look back on this race, it's like you are going to be stunned.

00:31:01 Speaker_02
Just how much money is put in that how crazy those ads are and just you can't get away from it like Montana Montana has I think six or seven hundred thousand vote voters and they've dropped a quarter of a billion dollars I don't know how you could even spend a quarter of a billion dollars in Montana and

00:31:21 Speaker_02
It's like if you have $100,000 in cash, you have to pay that in going to a McDonald's. I don't know how they do that, but I promise you everybody in Pennsylvania or in any of these kinds of contested states, they just can't get away from that shit.

00:31:36 Speaker_02
And at this point, they just stop paying attention to it. It's just, it's like, it's noise. It's toxic kinds of noise. And it does, it sets a tone for the whole country that we're willing to engage in this way. Oh, yeah. No, it's like, that's the thing.

00:31:51 Speaker_02
It turns everything into a night vice or worse. And it is about trying to destroy that person and to convince other people that you are the worst thing in the world.

00:32:03 Speaker_02
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00:35:17 Speaker_02
It's just all kinds of things. And it's the lowest, lowest denominator. And if you really want to fix American politics, I mean, there are issues, but I promise you, if you removed that, that would be a dramatic kinds of thing.

00:35:33 Speaker_02
And we all have to play that game. Some of us, like myself, I got a lot more of my money from small dollar donations, like Bernie. Bernie, I know he's been on the show. Bernie, But then other ones, it's like everyone chases the bigger checks.

00:35:46 Speaker_02
It's undeniable there too. And it's so disingenuous and there's PACs and there's other kinds of organizations. One way or another, it's just the way to funnel tens of million dollars to just tear someone apart.

00:35:59 Speaker_02
What was your background before you got into politics? I was a social worker. And I came to a very deeply broken and fractured community.

00:36:13 Speaker_02
And I actually started helping young men and women get their GEDs and just kind of getting their lives back on track in that sense. And then that's why I did that for several years.

00:36:26 Speaker_02
And then I decided I wanted to run for mayor and mayor of a small town. And we had problems with inequality in a community that 90% of the population abandoned the community and left.

00:36:43 Speaker_02
And if anyone's aware of the US steel, I mean, I live right now across the street from that iconic steel mill. I mean, that used to be America's Silicon Valley. About half of the world's steel used to be manufactured there.

00:36:58 Speaker_02
but now so much has changed and then I ran for mayor and a small-town mayor and And then that turned into well I decided like the kinds of issues that were meaningful to me and the personal kinds of experiences I I just thought I hey I want to project my kinds of experiences and my values and I started I ran for I ran for the first time in 2016.

00:37:21 Speaker_02
I ran for the Senate I mean, it's pretty kind of strange that You have a small town mayor running for the United States Senate. And but I mean, we had no money. I mean, zero, zero money on that.

00:37:34 Speaker_02
But we just we'd had a really like grassroots kind of a thing. And we got out across. Pennsylvania, and we came up a little short, but we pulled in 20% of the votes, which that was pretty, pretty, people thought that was pretty remarkable.

00:37:49 Speaker_02
And I carried my home county, which is Allegheny, that's the second largest. And that really kind of set the stage to run for lieutenant governor a couple years later after 2016. But 2016, though, that was where America met Donald Trump.

00:38:04 Speaker_02
And I was early, you know, turning the alarm off saying, hey, we have to be concerned here. Like, you know, Trump has connected with people in ways that it's like we have to be concerned.

00:38:18 Speaker_02
And I'll never forget, it was June in 2016, and I was a surrogate for Clinton. And Trump announced, hey, I'm showing up in a town called Manessin, which is a small

00:38:31 Speaker_02
steel town in the valley down from from ours and I'm like why the why is he showing up in I mean that's not like so either he's crazy or they've they've plugged into something and like I have to see that so I I try to get into that just to kind of see what was going on but they they recognized me and they said yeah get the fuck out

00:38:52 Speaker_02
But you're hard to hide. Yeah. And so, but they're like, they figured out that they have to connect and to make that kind of an argument to go to these kinds of places. And it, it, it did, it resonated.

00:39:04 Speaker_02
And you started to see a lot of the signs and a lot of the energy and it's like, Hey, you know, there's, there's a, there's a problem. And the, the Clinton campaign, everybody assumed that she was going to run away with it.

00:39:17 Speaker_04
Yeah.

00:39:18 Speaker_02
And they made the mistake of just showing up in Philadelphia, Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, and assumed that they were going to be OK. But a lot had slipped. And now, the margins. Trump created margins that were unheard.

00:39:35 Speaker_02
We referred to them as Romney margins. So in other words, you have red counties, and Romney would cover those by about 60% to 65%. And Trump did. He created 80s. 80s. We were losing 80-20. 80-20. And they're like, well, yeah, that's a small county.

00:39:54 Speaker_02
But yeah, you multiply that by 57, 57 other counties, and that's how they scale up. And that's how he won. And he won by 45,000 votes. And that's why he captured the blue wall. And that made him president. And here we are right now.

00:40:11 Speaker_02
The blue wall is they're both fighting on the blue wall. And the blue wall is Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan.

00:40:19 Speaker_03
When when you were running During 2016. What were you trying to accomplish? Like what it what did you want to do that?

00:40:28 Speaker_02
You felt like you could uniquely provide a service for Well, it wasn't I just think it was just different. I'm like, hey, I was running I was running for about forgot forgotten places and people where America's turned their backs on them.

00:40:43 Speaker_02
And talking about those kinds of important issues like living wage, abandoning the industrial parts of America. Some people watching what things have been left behind in places like Braddock, it's astonishing.

00:41:01 Speaker_02
90% of people left and 90% of the buildings are gone. And that whole region has just been just thrown away. So I just wanted, I didn't, you know, there was a path. I mean, there were two other people in the primary.

00:41:18 Speaker_02
And I thought I could maybe split, I could split the other two and just sneak by and get 33% plus one extra vote. But I came up a little short because I had no money because it's always going to be about money.

00:41:30 Speaker_02
And then Katie McGinty, she won, but she lost. And then that was that same cycle. And then in the same year that Trump won.

00:41:42 Speaker_03
And so since you've been in, since you've gotten into the Senate, what meaningful change have you been able to accomplish there?

00:41:51 Speaker_02
Well, again, you're a freshman. And, you know, my colleague and one that was just here, Senator Vance, I mean, we were both in the same cycle. We both ran in 22. So we both there for less than two years. And it's really based on seniority.

00:42:08 Speaker_02
And it's just kind of like, hey, get on the end of that line. So you are a freshman, and your influences, at least in the institution, are limited in some sense.

00:42:20 Speaker_02
But if you have a bigger platform, and I did, and I try to have those kinds of impacts and having those conversations.

00:42:26 Speaker_02
But my first couple, first half of that first year, that was a little, took a different detour because I was dealing with depression. I was in a depression and I realized that I was in a bad place.

00:42:45 Speaker_02
So having to make those kind of choices and I signed myself in to Walter Reed to get help because the depression And so I think it's an important conversation.

00:42:58 Speaker_02
And I knew, I thought at that time it could be politically, it could be difficult, but I thought it was important. And now if that costs me something politically, I'm okay. So that's why I'm continuing.

00:43:08 Speaker_02
So how I've, the impact I've had, I never fully expected that that voice would break through. And I'm in contact with people constantly saying, thank you for talking about this. I chose to get help or I chose not to follow that path on self-harm.

00:43:27 Speaker_02
And so I've had active conversations with members of Congress or fathers with younger kids. And they're like, hey, can you please talk? And I do that. I'm happy to talk to anybody.

00:43:39 Speaker_02
And so that's a way I've had an impact through all of that and also my voice through after what happened on October 7th. And I've decided I was going to be a very consistent voice for Israel through that.

00:43:54 Speaker_02
So that's why, kind of like the platform, but in terms of, if anyone's being honest, whether it was Senator Vance or any kinds of freshman senators, it's very limited because otherwise there's people that have been there for 25, 30 years.

00:44:08 Speaker_02
They're the ones that are going to be the chairman. And if you're a minority party, you have incredibly limited kinds of ability to move an agenda.

00:44:18 Speaker_03
So the depression thing, I think it's very important that you talked about that. I think transparency is something that people really appreciate. So many people suffer from depression. It's such a normal part of being a human being.

00:44:34 Speaker_03
And for a guy like you, who's a senator, who's already gone through being attacked, already gone through all these horrible things that they said about you while you were recovering from a stroke, it takes a lot of courage to come out and discuss that.

00:44:49 Speaker_03
I think it's really important.

00:44:50 Speaker_02
I'm really glad you did it. Well, thank you, but I don't think there's really courage. It's like I only had a choice.

00:44:56 Speaker_03
But it is courage because you know you're going to be publicly attacked and it's a vulnerable point. But I think it's not because I think so many people suffer from it.

00:45:05 Speaker_03
I think there's courage in coming out and talking about it openly and realizing that people are going to use it as an attack vector and saying, you know what, this is important to talk about. This is important to acknowledge.

00:45:19 Speaker_03
and to show people that you can recover from something like that.

00:45:23 Speaker_02
Well, originally I was just going to talk about depression. And there's a paradox. You might be a place in your life that you've actually kind of won, but depression lies to you and it convinces you that you've lost.

00:45:37 Speaker_02
And my depression got far more worse after I won. And then it was a downward spiral. And then if you don't check your depression, then you go down a dangerous slope about self-harm. And I started to have, I got to, to occupy that kind of a dark place.

00:45:59 Speaker_02
And that's when I realized that I have a choice. It's like, if I don't address this, then I had an emergency break. It's like, I have to stop, I have to stop, I have to, and that was my kids. I'm like, I cannot be, I can't be the example.

00:46:17 Speaker_02
And when you're gonna get older in life and you're gonna have those kinds of challenge, well, hey, dad decided to leave. Oh, that must be the right thing. And I'm like, I will I cannot allow myself to be the example for that.

00:46:30 Speaker_02
So I stayed in the game and I was able to get help and I got much better. So like for me, it's like I originally didn't want to talk about self-harm because that's definitely that's definitely not a great political winner.

00:46:43 Speaker_02
But I was like, I have to be honored about that and honest. And people, that really resonated with people. I think the first person, I was the first politician, especially at that level, talking about self-harm.

00:46:59 Speaker_02
And if people that are suffering, people that, I mean, you have a huge audience. I'm willing to bet plenty of them are suffering from that or looking through those kinds of issues. No doubt. No doubt. Yeah.

00:47:13 Speaker_02
And I promise people, whatever your path, whatever your path is for recovery,

00:47:18 Speaker_02
and I'm not an expert, but if you promise yourself to stay in that game, stay in that game, that you are ready, you're almost guaranteed to get better, because I promise you it will get better.

00:47:29 Speaker_02
And I was at the point where I was really in a very dark place, and I stayed in that game, and I am staying in front of you right now and having this conversation.

00:47:40 Speaker_02
And so that's what I try to tell everybody, whether they're listening today or in other times when I've had that. It's an honest conversation, but it is a red and blue conversation, and it's a rural and urban or suburban conversation.

00:47:55 Speaker_02
It's men or women or even younger kids. I've had conversations with teenagers, you know, with their parents, and they've even tried to take their lives.

00:48:03 Speaker_02
And I can't think of anything much more tragic than especially a young person taking their lives over some of the things that, and I never thought that voice would penetrate, but it did. And that's why I'm willing to have that conversation.

00:48:19 Speaker_03
Well, apparently it's very common for people that undergo major surgery to have depression afterwards. And there's a bunch of physiological reasons for that, they believe.

00:48:33 Speaker_03
My friend, Dr. Mark Gordon, who's done a lot of work on traumatic brain injuries and depression amongst athletes and soldiers, he did a lot of research on that. And one of the things that they found was that people that

00:48:45 Speaker_03
undergo like a long period of anesthesia and either heart surgery or any kind of major surgery, there's a disruption of your endocrine system afterwards that leads people to be just weary and broken down.

00:49:02 Speaker_03
And I could imagine that, along with the Senate race and all the other chaos and all the stresses involved with that, it plays a significant factor.

00:49:11 Speaker_02
Well, I'm sure it must have been a factor. I discovered that I had two friends. They're roughly my age, and they had young kids, and they took their lives. And they were both in the media.

00:49:26 Speaker_02
One worked for an incredibly elite organization, and another one had a really strong position. One had a heart attack and the other one had a stroke years earlier. And I found out. And I wish I could have talked to them. And I did talk to them.

00:49:44 Speaker_02
But it doesn't mean they were weak or that they gave up. It's just I got lucky and I found my emergency break. And if you have any kinds of study on people and self-harm, there was an individual, he jumped off the Golden Gate and he survived.

00:50:01 Speaker_02
And immediately after he says, as he crossed over the rail and he, I wanna live, I wanna live, what have I done? It's like I've made a terrible mistake. And you hit the water going 75 miles an hour and it's very against chance of surviving, but he did.

00:50:19 Speaker_02
And now he became obsessed with this idea. And he looked out for everyone that survived. And about 45 people out of 1800 people that have jumped over, they survived.

00:50:29 Speaker_02
And it was unanimously, people immediately like, oh my God, I want to live, I want to live, I want to live. And not one single person thought, well, I wish I was more successful. So I try to put that forward. And I can't imagine how difficult because

00:50:47 Speaker_02
they had children the same age mine and trying to explain to a 10-year-old son, like, why did daddy leave? And those are dark conversations. And so it's not about weakness. It's about trying to get away from that.

00:51:08 Speaker_02
People that are suffering from depression, if anyone's been there, it's like your mind is on fire. And you just want to get away from that. Please, I need relief from that kind of a thing.

00:51:20 Speaker_02
And every now and then you have kind of like the eye of the hurricane, where you finally thought maybe things could get better, but it roars back in, and it's like you get back to that very dark place.

00:51:32 Speaker_02
And I just tell everybody, I'm begging you, stay in that game. I promise you it can get better. And the depression is lying to you. It is absolutely lying to you. but don't make the kind of choice that you can't come back from.

00:51:48 Speaker_03
I have a friend who jumped off the bridge and died that way. It's a terrible, just a terrible thing to find out and you always feel like you could have talked to them, you could have helped.

00:52:03 Speaker_03
You always feel like, I didn't know, I didn't know he was suffering. And then I found out that he died a few days later and it was just like, It just leaves you feeling so lost. It's such a terrible way to go, too, that bridge.

00:52:19 Speaker_03
God, how many people, like, would you say how many people have jumped off that bridge, the Golden Gate?

00:52:24 Speaker_02
I think they referenced there were about over 1,800 people. And a small, small, tiny survived. And really, being faced that idea that you're not going to come back, it's spontaneously curative. Like, oh my God, I want to live. I want to live.

00:52:40 Speaker_02
I want to live. It was unanimous about it. And that's such an important kind of research that he did. And again, that's my message. It has to be very simple. Stay in that game. It's like, you can't do this. You can't do this. And you need support.

00:53:00 Speaker_02
Yeah, yeah. You need support, whatever that is. And some people have different kinds of resources. I mean, I would want that for everybody, the resources that I had. That's not fair. It's not fair. And I got lucky.

00:53:13 Speaker_02
It's not because I'm like, I'm so much stronger or better. It's like, no, no, I just got lucky on that. And I promise you, you're not going to regret staying in the game, and you can get better.

00:53:28 Speaker_02
And that is probably, I think, in my opinion, that's about 75% of getting back better.

00:53:36 Speaker_03
What have you done to help? What has helped you?

00:53:41 Speaker_02
Uh, my, my family, that, that's, that's really what, uh, like every, every person needs to have like, uh, that emerge, I call that like an emergency break. It's like, you know, you are, you're out of control.

00:53:55 Speaker_02
You know, you're having that the darkest conversation you'll have with yourself and you have to have something to stop that. Otherwise it's, you're going to go over the edge.

00:54:04 Speaker_02
And everyone needs to have that, whatever that is, whether it's your family, whether it's your wife or your husband, or whether it is, or this, that there has to be some, it has to get better, it's gonna get better.

00:54:18 Speaker_02
You know, that's why I say, stay on the game. And I'm not an expert, I'm not trained in that. But when people reach out to me and say, well, I feel like this, and I'm like, hey, it's like, you know, help works, I promise you it will get better.

00:54:33 Speaker_02
And I can't guarantee what your path will be. But what I can say is that stay in that game and you are going to find your way on that path and you're never going to regret. It's like, oh, you know, it's just the finality, the finality of that.

00:54:53 Speaker_02
And you can make a bad choice and that might set you back in life, but that's the one choice you can't come back from. And you will leave people in your life that they'll never understand or you wish you could reach back and you could let them know.

00:55:13 Speaker_02
And stay away from that kind of blackness because I promise you, you would regret

00:55:21 Speaker_03
And if you can't come back So what what has helped you counseling medication? Like what it what did what are the things that got you back on track other than just your family?

00:55:33 Speaker_02
I The election and everything I was convinced that I've lost everything I I had, you know, it was difficult to fully speak. And my kids, they got pulled into the social media kinds of invective. It's like, I've destroyed my health.

00:56:03 Speaker_02
And now, against odds, I won. And now, am I going to be able to do this job? Would I have been better off if I didn't survive? And I got to that kind of a dark place.

00:56:23 Speaker_02
And then I just had this like that spontaneous where it's like, my kids, it's like, no, I love you. It's like, oh my gosh. It's like when they were visiting, I didn't want them to visit me at Walter Reed.

00:56:36 Speaker_02
I was like, why would they want to be around this? But they did. And it was like this kind of spontaneous kinds of love. And it just was like a shot. And it's just like, I can come back. I can come back.

00:56:50 Speaker_02
I thought it's like, well, why would they want this mess back?

00:56:55 Speaker_02
And then, you know, just working through a lot of those things and other kinds of techniques and things, it was like, but that was probably the single most transformative event where it's like, I realized that I can come back to my life.

00:57:09 Speaker_02
Otherwise, it's like, I thought I've lost everything. Would I be able to even do my job? And it's like, do I even have a career?

00:57:17 Speaker_02
I mean, I'm talking about like that was a significant national story when after I signed myself in and that pulled my kids in through that. I mean, this idea.

00:57:28 Speaker_02
And after we announced that we're signing in and there were news trucks outside their house and And they had the trauma of thinking that dad could have lost after the stroke. And now he is, it's just, it's put them through so much.

00:57:45 Speaker_02
And that's why I was convinced that they probably don't want me around. And then I made the stupid mistake of, I went on social media and things, I'm like, And just, I read some of that shit.

00:57:59 Speaker_02
I mean, it's just, it's just, oh my God, millions and millions of views and videos. And it's just like, you know, going after my family and saying, you know, you know, hey, he's a vegetable.

00:58:13 Speaker_02
He's, you know, he's a retard and, you know, sling, a sling blade and all kinds of things. And it wasn't, It wasn't the individual kinds of insults, it was the volume and just how widespread it was.

00:58:28 Speaker_02
And I'm like, who jumps online to go after a stranger that's never really done anything to you personally?

00:58:35 Speaker_03
Well, I think it's not just individuals. I think it's targeted. I think there's a lot of that stuff, especially when there's something that is significant as a Senate seat.

00:58:44 Speaker_02
And I think there's... Yeah, well, I mean, it's like if I have $100 million to convince you that you're a terrible person and you're the worst thing ever, and that inspires a lot of people and they, hey, that's the mission.

00:58:58 Speaker_02
It's like he clearly, he must be those things. And, you know, there is no, there's no tap out. There is no tap out. It's like even after we won, after I won, in some sense, it actually accelerated. Right.

00:59:10 Speaker_03
It's not the war's not over. It's just begun.

00:59:14 Speaker_02
No. Oh, no, no. And the second the second you step into that kind of arena on the federal level for like a Senate seat, if it's like a purple state like Pennsylvania,

00:59:26 Speaker_02
You know, I promise you there will be tens and tens of millions of dollars and their mission is to turn you into the worst thing in the world. And whoever survives, that's the one that's going to be in that seat.

00:59:38 Speaker_02
And I still will never understand why someone, you know, independently wealthy kinds of people will spend, you know,

00:59:45 Speaker_02
incredible amounts of money and I try it people I'm like there's no glamour here like I like I'm in a 500 square foot apartment and I'm like here with my phone I'm like hey grubhub what's it tonight and then it's like I'm like I watch you know

01:00:00 Speaker_02
TV on Netflix and things and I I ask I ask My colleagues.

01:00:05 Speaker_02
I'm like, hey, is there kind of secret society like, you know, like, you know crazy parties or you know sitting around with cigars and you know, you know, I Kind of have the same version of that.

01:00:17 Speaker_02
That's the perception though, right the person Yeah, the perception is invited into a club. Yeah that you control the world. Yeah that we all have kinds of dialogue on West Wing

01:00:30 Speaker_02
You know, kinds of turn, you know, and really it's just like, and I describe that as a lot of it's just bad, it's just bad performance art. You know, yeah, thanks. That's usually what it is. It's just bad performance art.

01:00:45 Speaker_02
Some people, like if you're in a safe state or a safe seat, you, and especially if you have the resources and they're incredibly wealthy people, they buy a house and they move their life there.

01:00:59 Speaker_02
So you're able to kind of things, but like, I don't have those resources and I'm in a very, very, the ultimate purple. And so I spend more than 50% of my time away and I miss my kids. It's rough. for that. I mean, I signed up for that.

01:01:17 Speaker_02
But I promise you, there's no glamour in that.

01:01:21 Speaker_03
Well, there's certainly no glamour, if you're honest.

01:01:25 Speaker_03
But I think there's a lot of people that look to certain members of the government that have jobs that pay $150,000, $170,000 a year, but somehow or another acquire hundreds of millions of dollars over the course of their career, usually through some kind of insider trading.

01:01:45 Speaker_02
Well, yeah, of course. I mean, I don't own any of those stocks or anything, and definitely, like, if you have any kinds of impact or you know that there's something coming, I mean, yeah, it's like you need to- How is that legal?

01:02:00 Speaker_02
Well, no, we should have the kind of legislation to make sure that you're not – like if you are on Congress, you shouldn't have any kinds of stocks because you are going to be passing kinds of laws, et cetera, et cetera, that you have to separate that.

01:02:14 Speaker_02
They really shouldn't be a part of that kinds of a thing. And I mean, I'm all out, I'm open. All of us, we have to have our wealth and all that there. And if I'm not the poorest, I'm probably the bottom five.

01:02:33 Speaker_02
And other people there are worth hundreds of millions of dollars. So we can't have that situation where, if you're gonna be involved on those kinds of legislation, that you can't be enriched by

01:02:45 Speaker_02
those kinds of and there has to be some kind of influence that seems simple that seems like Logical like most people would agree to that. Yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of inertia.

01:02:56 Speaker_02
It's the same thing I think if any one of us were being honest Money is destroying our democracy and and that that's that some people that might sound trite No, it's a cliche, but it's it's a hundred percent though. I think most people

01:03:10 Speaker_02
Your objective would agree with you.

01:03:12 Speaker_02
I promise you it is it is absolute it is a scourge of American democracy and money is king and what's that money for that money is for tearing you apart and that creates more and more and more kinds of incivility and cruelty and then now When I went through when I was in graduate school for that stuff I mean there was no social media and there wasn't a

01:03:37 Speaker_02
there wasn't podcasts, there wasn't all kinds of things. So that made it more difficult. But now there's all of those things and social media is an accelerant and just unlimited money.

01:03:50 Speaker_02
And that has what, I'm sure you're an athlete and if you've heard that NFL players, it's like, wait, would you want your son to play? And sometimes say, well, no, I wouldn't want that for my son.

01:04:04 Speaker_02
And and it's like I'm relieved that my oldest is like he has no interest in being in politics and that so It's I can't imagine it's going to get better until you know, we address this idea that unlimited money is unlimited

01:04:20 Speaker_02
Attack and it's an unlimited cruelty and hyperbole and just all kinds of Poisoning the the will that you know half of us are gonna hate your guts and the other half That's my team.

01:04:37 Speaker_03
Yeah, so Well, I strongly feel that the internet should remain the way it is in terms of people being able to post on social media anonymously if they so choose.

01:04:49 Speaker_03
But the problem with that is it can be captured by money and it can be captured by these enormous groups that have bot farms.

01:05:00 Speaker_03
whether it's uh state actors whether it's other countries other nations that are doing that to try to attack our our system and to try to promote certain narratives or whether it's our own country itself doing it because i think we do it too and i think that packs do it and it's just people hook themselves up it's like you you self-select your cocoon

01:05:22 Speaker_02
Yes, you know and like I'm a big fan of Apple News and it's like 13 bucks a month And and but I read everything across the spectrum, you know Very very left and very very right in between and and I think it's really I think that's your responsibility Especially if you're an elected leader to to

01:05:42 Speaker_02
be challenged, to challenge yourself on the ideas. And it's like clearly one side doesn't have all the answers and the other side can't be 100% wrong. And it's just like being challenging and living or taking in other kinds of perspectives.

01:05:58 Speaker_02
I think that's a responsibility because otherwise, if you only just cocoon yourself into, and it's just, it turns into one gigantic circle jerk,

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01:07:46 Speaker_02
And that's why it just turns people to just kind of dig in, and it's like, hey, you know, the problem is them, and we have to... Yes.

01:07:55 Speaker_03
Well, it's a problem with human beings in general, is that we tend to be very tribal, and we tend to commit to an ideology whether it's... And comfortable.

01:08:01 Speaker_02
Yes.

01:08:02 Speaker_03
It's comfortable.

01:08:02 Speaker_02
Sure.

01:08:03 Speaker_03
Especially when you're in an echo chamber. Everyone's agreeing with you. You get social credit from saying the things that these people all agree with, and you feed off that.

01:08:13 Speaker_03
But when it's being captured by – it's not just these people exchanging ideas, it's also a bunch of people that are manipulating people's ideas.

01:08:22 Speaker_03
I don't know if you've ever paid attention to, like, Rene Durest's work with the Internet Research Agency.

01:08:31 Speaker_03
what they uncovered, what they were doing was using, this was like during the 2016 election, using social media, and it was a lot of Russian troll farms and troll farms in other countries.

01:08:43 Speaker_02
It's possible, but to be honest, that election wasn't turned on, I think, Russian interference. No. What happened in 2016 was Trump, you know, he plugged into like kinds of a

01:08:59 Speaker_02
Of an energy or you know, like it was just like kind of looking to make that kind of a connection there Well, he's a legitimate outsider.

01:09:08 Speaker_03
This is the appeal the appeal is that people think that this system is completely rigged and it's captured by money and Special interests and enormous corporations and that here's a guy who's outside of this system completely and the evidence of that is how the system turned against him and

01:09:25 Speaker_03
and how you got to see people on television every night talking about Russiagate, talking about how he's a puppet of Putin, talking about the Steele dossier, talking about all these different things that turned out to not be true, and it further cemented... I never bought into some of that kind of stuff, because if anyone that spent any time on the ground

01:09:46 Speaker_02
in one of those states. It's very clear. That wasn't because of some small kinds of tweets and things, like whatever. It's undeniable. And also, remember, the Republican Party was like, hey, this is a joke. And I remember Jeb Bush.

01:10:09 Speaker_02
And he had like $100 or $200 million. And he just went by, he ticked him off. And even then, people thought he was going to win, but he did. But remember, though, overall, though, that was 75,000 votes.

01:10:25 Speaker_02
That's a mathematical, like, you know, I mean, think of that 100, 160 million votes, 75,000 spread across three large states, including my own. That transformed American politics and in the world as well.

01:10:40 Speaker_02
And it just came down to 75,000 voters in those three states. And that's where we're at.

01:10:49 Speaker_03
Yeah, it's an extraordinary time in that regard, right? I mean, it's uncharted territory.

01:10:56 Speaker_02
Well, I reference a movie, like Bullworth. I remember that movie. Bullworth. And it was Warren Beatty, and he was a senator. And he kind of had like a breakdown, and he started saying provocative things.

01:11:09 Speaker_02
He used to get up in front of his audience and kind of like that gaffe of accidentally telling the truth. Yeah. And it was kind of like it was an absurd.

01:11:20 Speaker_02
I mean, when I was in grad school, that was like put up as like, well, I mean, people enjoyed that.

01:11:26 Speaker_02
And now that became a term in politics saying, oh, we affect even President Obama's like, hey, we all want to secretly go full Bullworth, full Bullworth. And but but that's what really he channeled in where he would say,

01:11:41 Speaker_02
It's kind of like he projects kind of like, well, I don't give a fuck. And just say all those kinds of a thing. And people have responded to those kinds of things. And a lot of people, that's the bug.

01:11:54 Speaker_02
But you have to understand that for enough people, that's the feature. And that's kind of what they want.

01:12:01 Speaker_02
And whatever that is, it describes a brand that, you know, it's not, I don't admire that, but you still have to kind of marvel at the level to say crazy kinds of things that, well, I guess maybe we're both old enough to remember when George, in the George Bush, Al Gore, he is like,

01:12:28 Speaker_02
This guy and that moved the polls people were like he rolled his eyes at Bush, you know like things and like that you know like it used to be much more stayed and now think of what's been said now and all the stuff and and I don't think people aren't paying attention some of the whatever the latest outrage is

01:12:47 Speaker_03
Yeah, I think one of your appeals is that you speak like a normal human being. You speak like a person who actually cares about these issues, and you seemingly speak from the heart. You don't seem polished, which is a good thing.

01:13:05 Speaker_02
And I think people- I wish I was more handsome. I don't think that's good. No, it's like I'm honest. Yeah, I'm honest. I I think I'm in I'm in touch with you know, what I'm limited.

01:13:18 Speaker_03
I wasn't blessed with model looks and But it's not looks it's the polish of speaking like a Congressman like a senator like a presidential candidate, but it's this kind of bullshit way of communicating That's inauthentic that even though it's effective even though it's polished and smooth people never get a sense of who that person is as a human being

01:13:43 Speaker_03
Trump is not polished, he's not polished in that sense, but you get a sense of who he is as a human being that doesn't seem to be a veil. There doesn't seem to be this disconnect between a human being and the thoughts.

01:13:57 Speaker_03
You might not agree with him, you might think he's crass or rude, but at least you know that he's the guy that's talking, these are his thoughts, and people trust that way more than they trust someone who's, you know, polished but full of shit.

01:14:14 Speaker_02
Yeah, no, it's Scarface. It's like, you know, word and balls. You're losing politically if you're telling people to not believe what their eyes are seeing. You know, like these kinds of issues.

01:14:27 Speaker_02
And it's like I'm not going to lie or I'm not going to toe a line if I don't believe in that. But in terms of the conversation, I think it's all I've got. And it's not because I don't care. It's actually I'm very committed and I really do care.

01:14:49 Speaker_02
But I think authenticity, that's one of the less meaningful currency in this shitty business.

01:15:00 Speaker_03
So I was having a conversation this morning with a friend of mine, and we were talking about voter ID. And he was shocked that you don't need voter ID in, I believe, it's 15 states. 15 states require no ID.

01:15:17 Speaker_03
I think it's 24 or 25 states require ID, but only, I think, 11 of them require you to have photo ID. This is a weird one in this election that I've tried to look at.

01:15:36 Speaker_03
as objectively as possible, and I can't see any reason why you would not need ID to vote unless you wanted people to vote that aren't qualified to vote.

01:15:48 Speaker_02
Yeah. Well, I mean, honestly, I would like to remind everybody, and it's not like a talking point, it's actually, it's in a fact that voter fraud is incredibly, incredibly rare. It's really hard to get away with that successfully.

01:16:05 Speaker_02
And in 2020- At scale, you mean? Yeah. It's not scalable. Yeah. It's like, I mean,

01:16:11 Speaker_02
It's like and usually it's it's kind of local kinds of communities and people they either know that person or it's it's not It's never going to be organized in a point where you can pack you can pack a box or you can't Determine that that kind of a thing.

01:16:28 Speaker_02
It's it's just that you know after election election election It's just never been you know in 2020 out of over millions of votes in 2020 in Pennsylvania there were five or six you know, once.

01:16:41 Speaker_02
And what happened is that they turned out to be the Republicans, and they used their deceased, their dead moms, you know, to vote for Trump through that. And that was documented. And they were all caught. They were charged. They were convicted.

01:16:59 Speaker_02
And all those votes, that would have been six votes out of all of it. Do you think that that's the only voter fraud that exists?

01:17:07 Speaker_02
Well, people also, we need to remind that, you know, the voter database, there are cross-checks against deaths and, you know, who's moved or what's their status are.

01:17:17 Speaker_02
Like, you know, all that's cross-checked back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. So it's a living kinds of thing where it's continually updated and all of those kinds of things. And it's self-checks. And remember also,

01:17:30 Speaker_02
In 2020, you know, Trump, there was like, there's cheating, there's all these things are happening. And remember, there's probably 57, 58 red counties. And all of those commissioners that are in charge of that, they were like, hey, no, there was none.

01:17:44 Speaker_02
There was none. And even in Georgia, even in Georgia. Governor Kemp, Governor Kemp, like, hey, you know, Georgia, you know, it was very close, but it was it was honest. There was no there was no kinds of fraud in that. And that's a Republican.

01:17:59 Speaker_03
But other than making things a little bit easier to cheat. What would be the logic behind not having voter ID? I've tried to look at this as objectively as possible.

01:18:14 Speaker_03
I can't find any reason why you would not require someone to be able to prove that they're the person they say they are when they're putting in their ballots.

01:18:23 Speaker_02
It's not a hill that I'm saying we have to die on that, too, again. But it's a vulnerability, clearly, right?

01:18:30 Speaker_02
Well, it's also that some people may not believe that in a lot of these kinds of communities, ones that I live in, for some people, they don't have an ID necessarily, or they've lost it or whatever.

01:18:45 Speaker_03
But you need one to get a driver's license, you need one to get a Costco car.

01:18:50 Speaker_02
Yeah, they would have to get an ID or it costs X amount of dollars or those kinds of a thing. It's a barrier and it usually tends to skew more towards people that are, you know, coming from those kinds of communities.

01:19:04 Speaker_02
And the Republicans understand that they're usually going to they're going to skew towards Democratic voters through that. And So that's kind of the argument on that. And there's never been any evidence that there is widespread kinds of voter fraud.

01:19:23 Speaker_03
But we really didn't have widespread mail-in ballots to the extent that it was done in 2020. We really didn't have that before.

01:19:30 Speaker_02
All of those were. All of those were. Those five or six dead moms that were voting, those were all – well, actually, one guy

01:19:40 Speaker_02
One guy went in, he voted, and then he went up to his car, and he put on sunglasses and a bobcap, and he walked in, he's like, hi, hello, I'm here to vote. And the guy's like, you were just here, what are you doing? And then they called the police.

01:19:54 Speaker_02
And then it's like, yeah, he was trying to double vote.

01:19:56 Speaker_03
Did you see the story about the Chinese national who was arrested because he voted, and then he tried to get his ballot back? That's how they they caught him. It's possible.

01:20:08 Speaker_03
Yeah, this is thing that just happened and unfortunately once he's voted Even though he was not eligible to vote his vote is going to count Texas removed some I mean there's lawsuits about it but Texas removed somewhere in the neighborhood of a million people that were ineligible to vote that could have been voting and

01:20:28 Speaker_02
Well, everybody knows who's voting and who's not voting on that. And then that's why... What do you mean by that? What do you mean by everybody knows?

01:20:34 Speaker_02
Well, and remember also, too, Dominion, you know, people on the Trump side, they all said that Dominion's was corrupt. And that cost Fox $800 million.

01:20:47 Speaker_02
They had to pay $800 million about defamation for saying that it was rigged or if it's not, and there was no evidence. And they had to just acknowledge that this was the honest thing.

01:20:59 Speaker_03
But Dominion is a computer program, right? It's a computer.

01:21:04 Speaker_02
That's what you're doing.

01:21:04 Speaker_03
You're doing electronic voting.

01:21:06 Speaker_02
Yeah, that was a system that mostly, and often it was red states that were using those.

01:21:12 Speaker_03
Well, that is true, because do you remember the documentary Hacking Democracy? Did you ever see that?

01:21:18 Speaker_02
Again, there's always going to be people that are going to try to have an influence on that.

01:21:22 Speaker_03
Right. But did you see that documentary? It was about the Republicans doing it.

01:21:25 Speaker_02
I haven't seen that documentary.

01:21:26 Speaker_03
It was a documentary during the Bush administration and one that they showed that the Diebold machines, and Diebold was a significant contributor, I believe, to the Republican Party.

01:21:38 Speaker_03
They showed in the documentary that you could use a third party input to change the results.

01:21:44 Speaker_03
And they actually proved it in the documentary, and people are pointing to this as, oh my God, the Republicans are cheating, and the Republicans have used this to try to rig the election for George Bush. It was an HBO documentary.

01:21:58 Speaker_02
I'm not accusing. I've never accused the Republicans. Like, well, in 2016. No, I'm not saying he did.

01:22:06 Speaker_03
What I'm trying to say is that this is not a thing that's only been leveled against the Democrats using it. This is not like an accusation that only applies to Democrats. In the past, a similar accusation was applied to Republicans.

01:22:23 Speaker_02
Yeah, well, I mean, I think we can all agree that we need to have a just like our border. We need a secure border and we need an absolutely secure voting system as well, too. I mean, that should never be considered controversial. Right. And in 2016,

01:22:40 Speaker_02
A lot of Democrats were outraged that we lost. But I never claimed that there was, you know, the Republicans cheated or do all those kinds of things.

01:22:51 Speaker_02
And it's like, you know, the problem, the problem for accusing that there was voter fraud is that if you don't like the outcome. Right.

01:22:59 Speaker_02
You know, so and I have never witnessed a a an election if if they've won that they claim, well, there might be, you know, we might have cheated. Yeah. No, we're not cheating. So that's right.

01:23:12 Speaker_02
So I think that's that's kind of that's I think that's kind of the underlying truth about that. And of course, you know, I think I was the first Democrat saying, hey, we need a secure border. It's a significant issue.

01:23:26 Speaker_02
And if I thought there was any kinds of issues, and I've been very vigilant throughout, I've been actively involved in those kinds of things, and I've never witnessed those kinds of a thing.

01:23:35 Speaker_03
What do you mean by issues? Like what kind of issues you're talking about? You're talking about people letting people in in order to get votes?

01:23:44 Speaker_02
Well, I don't think there's that level of kinds of organization.

01:23:49 Speaker_03
But there is an organization that's moving these people to swing states. There's a significant number of these people that are illegal immigrants that have made their way to swing states. And then there's been calls for amnesty.

01:24:03 Speaker_03
There's been calls for allowing these people to have a pathway to citizenship and allow them to vote.

01:24:10 Speaker_03
The fear that a lot of people have is that this is a coordinated effort to take these people that you're allowing to come into the country, then you're providing them with all sorts of services, like food stamps and housing, and setting them up, and then providing a pathway to amnesty, and then you would have voters that would be significantly

01:24:33 Speaker_03
voting towards the Democrats because they're the people that enabled them to come into the country in the first place and provided them with those services.

01:24:41 Speaker_03
This is a big fear that people have, and that you're rigging this system and that this will turn all these states into essentially locked blue like California is.

01:24:53 Speaker_02
Well, you know, immigration is always going to be a tough issue in our nation. You know, I had as a professor in grad school, Alan Simpson, Alan Simpson, and he was he was a United States senator. He was Wyoming.

01:25:10 Speaker_02
And he was actually a pro-choice Republican. I mean, how rare that would be. Well, it doesn't exist now. And he said, you are never going to have any meaningful immigration kinds of legislation. He's like, because both side, that's useful for them.

01:25:27 Speaker_02
And it's going to be back and forth, back and forth. And he said that 25 years ago.

01:25:30 Speaker_02
Useful meaning the debate having it always Some political talking point side or the other it's useful and he he said I there were never going to be and he said that in 1999 and I was I Voted for the border deal and that and that went down and and that's I mean he said that 25 years ago and that was absolutely true now that

01:25:54 Speaker_02
that they had an opportunity to do a comprehensive border, bipartisan, and that went down because Trump, he declared that that's a bad deal after it was negotiated with the other side.

01:26:08 Speaker_03
But didn't that deal also involve amnesty? And didn't that deal also involve a significant number of illegal aliens being allowed into the country every year? I think it was 2 million people.

01:26:19 Speaker_03
So it's still the same sort of situation, and their fear is exactly what I talked about, that these people will be moved to swing states, and that that will be used to essentially rig those states and turn them blue forever.

01:26:33 Speaker_02
Well, I'm not really sure if that's what's in play. I think it's really like it's important that we have to have an honest conversation.

01:26:42 Speaker_03
But doesn't that seem logical, though?

01:26:43 Speaker_03
If you have a significant number of people that are being moved into swing states that have come across the border illegally, and then you've provided them with all these services, you provided them with food stamps, EBT, you've provided them with housing,

01:26:56 Speaker_03
You could, if you gave those people amnesty and allowed those people to vote, and it was very organized, you're talking about 75,000 votes over a few counties that switched everything over to the Republicans.

01:27:09 Speaker_03
You could see how you import 10 million people over the course of four years.

01:27:14 Speaker_03
illegally, and then move a significant number of them to swing states, and then provide them with all these services, and then give them a path to citizenship, you could essentially rig those states.

01:27:26 Speaker_02
Undeniably, immigration is changing our nation. I mean, I haven't spent a lot of time in Texas, but it's very clear that immigration has remade Texas. And I think it's generally, it's for a good thing. And like my wife, my wife's Brazilian.

01:27:40 Speaker_02
And her family was undocumented, and she was seven years old when she was brought here. And I'm the big pro-immigration guy that there was, but it also has to be true that we need a secure border.

01:27:56 Speaker_02
And we have to work this out, because we are pretending that you have millions and millions of people living in the shadow. And they are here and we have to work together and figure out a way to get forward because they're here.

01:28:09 Speaker_02
And it seems incredibly difficult kind of logistics thing. And I think it's it's also un-American to round everybody up and who in the vast majority of them are just living legal lives and doing a lot of the jobs that other people here would never do.

01:28:25 Speaker_02
I think we can agree on that.

01:28:27 Speaker_03
Well, J.D. Vance actually talked about that the other day when he was here. He was explaining how there are CEOs of large corporations that want these people to come across because they need cheap labor.

01:28:39 Speaker_03
And the way to get cheap labor is have people that are illegals working for less than what would be our minimum wage.

01:28:47 Speaker_02
Well, I'm not aware. I mean, minimum wage, really, it's I think it's it's most incredibly difficult and and violent kind of jobs like, you know, like and that's like that's jobs that a lot of people don't want. A lot of those.

01:29:00 Speaker_02
Those are kind of really rough processing. Yeah. Very rough. Right.

01:29:05 Speaker_03
And this is the thing that's been said about Springfield, Ohio, that these Haitians that have moved to Springfield, Ohio, these people are complaining about them.

01:29:11 Speaker_03
But the people that have employed these people are saying, listen, these people are taking jobs that other people that lived in this community don't want. They work very hard and they're very happy that they have this pathway to be in America now.

01:29:23 Speaker_03
I think most people that come here come here because they want a better life for their families. And America is essentially a country that was founded by immigration. I'm a grandchild of immigrants. I'm here because of immigration.

01:29:36 Speaker_02
We all were immigrants.

01:29:37 Speaker_03
Yeah, this is an immigrant country, essentially.

01:29:39 Speaker_02
Yeah, and it's like, again, the Haitians that they're referencing in Ohio, in Springfield, I mean, they're not eating dogs. They're not eating pets and those kinds of things. Now, it's reasonable.

01:29:52 Speaker_02
I mean, I've said the same thing, that we have to have a secure border, but it didn't even apply to that situation. That was all a legal situation. That was amnesty, excuse me. And that's because Haiti was a terrible situation.

01:30:10 Speaker_02
And to me, they were doing those jobs. And Republicans, even the Republican governor was saying, like, these are good workers and this is not the problem. They aren't eating geese.

01:30:23 Speaker_02
And it's just like you can be very pro pro border like I am or you can be very, you know strict on immigration But you don't have to demonize or try to turn a group of people in that they're eating your dog Well, they eating ducks and eating look I'm sure some people have done that, you know You know why I know that because some people do that in places that are just Americans ducks are edible and some people want to eat a duck and

01:30:47 Speaker_03
And it's just like you're not going to stop it, but that's not the major problem that people face So this is the pro side of it, right?

01:30:55 Speaker_03
The pro side of it is you give a pathway to people that are from very unfortunate circumstances And I think we would both agree

01:31:02 Speaker_03
that if we were living in those countries and there was a pathway to citizenship in the United States, all you had to do is make it across the border, we would both do it.

01:31:10 Speaker_03
If it was better for our families, it was better for our future, if we were living in a place that had no hope and no future, and all you had to do is make it to America, and you could work. We would all do it. I would do it. You would do it.

01:31:22 Speaker_03
I bet everybody listening to this would do it if they found themselves in that circumstance. That's the best aspect of it. The best aspect of it is good people that are ambitious, that want a better life, which is how this country was founded.

01:31:33 Speaker_03
The worst aspect of it is Venezuelan gangs are taking over apartment buildings in Aurora, Colorado, and San Antonio, Texas. That's the worst aspect of it, is that they're letting in gang members, Venezuelans emptied out their prisons, and essentially

01:31:49 Speaker_02
according to the president.

01:31:53 Speaker_03
Right, what happened in Cuba. Yeah, the same kind of deal. Emptying out their prisons and instructing these people to make it to America. This is a significant problem with the open border.

01:32:03 Speaker_02
Yeah, and that's why we need a secure border. And there's also in it that all of this is about a truth, is that America is a beacon to the world. Millions of people.

01:32:14 Speaker_02
The demand to become a citizen here or to participate in our amazing society, the demand outstrips the space. And we're already the very pro-immigration. We allow more kinds of a path, more than any other nations in the world on that.

01:32:30 Speaker_02
And people are willing to die, and they put themselves at risk just to kind of get here, to be able to just about here. So America isn't the problem. America is one of the great hopes in the world.

01:32:40 Speaker_02
And that's why so many people want to come be a part of that. And that's why it has to have an effective border. And we had a real issue here, and we wanted to address that.

01:32:51 Speaker_02
And that's why my former professor said that you're never going to have the kind of a deal, because it is useful for both sides to weaponize that and to demonize one side or turn the other thing in there, because it's a serious, important issue.

01:33:07 Speaker_02
It's a political talking point that they're always going to use.

01:33:10 Speaker_03
That's what you're saying.

01:33:11 Speaker_02
Yeah. It's useful. I mean, it's weaponized. And that's why you have to have an honest conversation.

01:33:18 Speaker_00
Right.

01:33:19 Speaker_02
I think I've always, you know, I was reaching out saying that was referred to H.R.1. And that was like kind of like the dream kind of immigration law coming out of the House.

01:33:30 Speaker_02
And I was like, hey, if that border deal goes down, then it's like, hey, we should continue to have that conversation. Right. You know, it's like they're parts of the

01:33:37 Speaker_03
But what's contradictory is that, say, if you're coming from Canada or Europe and you're a highly skilled, college-educated person who wants to live in America and become a United States citizen, the path to citizenship is incredibly difficult.

01:33:55 Speaker_03
It's hard. You have to go up for review. You have to show that you're doing something that Americans can't do. You have to be a person of significant talent or ability. There's something about you that we want you in here.

01:34:09 Speaker_03
Yet, if you just make it across the border and walk in, people want to give you amnesty, and they want to allow you a path to citizenship quickly. Without any of those hoops, you don't have to take tests, you don't have to go up for review.

01:34:21 Speaker_03
Not only that, but once you get here, once you apply for amnesty, there's a significant wait period where you're allowed to maintain your residence in this country. It's between seven and sometimes longer years.

01:34:35 Speaker_02
Yeah, we have to figure out what's the way to do all that. Well, that's kind of crazy, though, isn't it? But the fact is we have an issue. We have millions of people here, and the vast majority of them are living legal kinds of lives.

01:34:49 Speaker_03
What would you do if you were the president? Let's imagine President Fetterman has to deal with this issue. You want to address the American people. What do you think should be done?

01:34:57 Speaker_02
Again, I would have the same conversation to Congress and to the American people like I'm having right now as well, too. Like, you know, I think it's two things can be true at the same time. You can be very pro-immigration.

01:35:09 Speaker_02
I wouldn't have the beautiful family that I have if it wasn't for, you know, challenges and issues with immigration. But then we have to figure out a way that we can marry a successful way that we can combine.

01:35:22 Speaker_02
You know, I think, I personally, I do think immigration is really one of our secret weapons. I think that's what makes America so strong. I agree with you. Yeah, I do.

01:35:32 Speaker_03
Ambitious people who want a better life. I mean, that's literally how we're founded.

01:35:35 Speaker_02
That's what big I mean Do you see people trying to to live illegally in India or Russia? You don't see people trying to make in the right nations like that I mean, that's I mean, it's it's in some sense. It's it's in a weird way.

01:35:46 Speaker_02
It's like kind of a kind of a It's a significant but a good problem to have because we have so we're such an amazing nation.

01:35:52 Speaker_00
Yes, I

01:35:53 Speaker_02
agreed yeah but if i'm if i'm president federman i'm like hey we got to figure this out we got to figure this out i'm not what would you do i'm not going to demonize i'm not going to demonize the republicans and say that you're a xenophobic or i mean the second you start calling somebody oh you're a xenophobic you're it's like well then the conversation is going to shut down right right and uh and i'm saying i've i

01:36:14 Speaker_02
It's like for a serious conversation requires serious people and the second the second and that's when you talk about Unlimited money and it's like suddenly you're like, I mean I had I had gigantic billboards saying Federman equals, you know open borders and Federman, you know, like it's just like, you know, I get turned into you know, like a Marxist a

01:36:35 Speaker_02
Yeah, yeah, just all these kinds of things. And it's just like, and of course that was never true. And then when I had the opportunity, because, you know, as I'm a Senator and we have that kinds of legislation in front of me, I'm like, yes, we need.

01:36:47 Speaker_03
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01:38:09 Speaker_03
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01:38:24 Speaker_03
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01:38:38 Speaker_02
They have a serious ones. And now people are like, we're shocked. They're like, oh, wait a minute. I thought they told us that he was all like border in, you know, open it up and whatever.

01:38:45 Speaker_03
And it's just not true. Well, that's the problem with people building a fake narrative around your actual opinions. And I think people have been shocked by you.

01:38:52 Speaker_03
And we've actually talked about on the podcast over the last couple of years, you say very reasonable things, very reasonable, honest things. That's the thing.

01:39:03 Speaker_02
But it's rare for politicians. I'm eager to talk to anyone. And it's like, I mean, I was thrilled to be here. And I've been a longtime fan of yours. Thank you. And it's like, these are the kinds of, you know, like, parts of times we become too fragile.

01:39:21 Speaker_02
You know, like, oh, they're not allowed to talk about those things. You're not allowed to have these kinds of conversations. I never understood why that's really a problem.

01:39:30 Speaker_02
But, it's like, when people discover it, it's like, well, hey, he seems to be kind of reasonable, or me, I disagree with some things, but he's not what $100 million, you know, trained me to think that that's what's true about him.

01:39:42 Speaker_03
Right. The propaganda. So, like, what do you think could be done? If you were President Fetterman, let's bring it back to that, what would you do about the border?

01:39:52 Speaker_03
Like, how do you secure the border but also allow a pathway for people to pursue their hopes and dreams in the United States?

01:40:00 Speaker_02
Yeah, I would, I would have, you know, for me, I would have started with the HR2. And there are elements that are, they're just not palatable to their members of my colleagues that, you know, they come from, you know, more, more deep blue states.

01:40:15 Speaker_02
And that becomes, it's not palatable to some people. So how do you secure the border? How would that be done? Well, I mean, it's just, it's got to have, you know, the best border deal is the only one that can pass.

01:40:33 Speaker_02
And, you know, HR2 was described as like, kind of like, you know, I joke, I call that the only fans list of what Republicans want for immigration.

01:40:44 Speaker_02
Only fans wish list, you know, they're kind of like this is what we all want, you know, but you know It's like the only fans. This is what this is what we want And what do you mean by that? That was never going to pass. That was never going to pass.

01:40:58 Speaker_02
That was like what every Republicans on the House, you know, the hard, the hardliners, that's what it was. And they passed it because in this cycle, the Republicans have the majority in the House.

01:41:09 Speaker_02
And now they put that up and that's never going to pass in the Senate because we have control. And then that kind of got sidelined. And then when everything kind of came together and that was the aid deal,

01:41:24 Speaker_02
that was for Ukraine, for Israel, and for China. And then the Republicans tied the border to passing that. And there were some people that were frustrated saying, hey, no, no, that's

01:41:41 Speaker_03
Well, that's one of the more frustrating things about bills, is that you can take a bill about an issue, say energy or whatever, immigration, and attach a bunch of other stuff, like support for foreign aid, support for specific wars, or whatever it is.

01:41:57 Speaker_03
You could throw a bunch of stuff in there that really shouldn't be in there, and then you have these bills that are 2,000 pages long, and no one's really reading them.

01:42:05 Speaker_02
I thought, well, I thought it was reasonable. I thought it was reasonable to have that conversation. I'm like, yeah, let's have that conversation. I mean, because for me, it was about security.

01:42:13 Speaker_02
And for that aid bill, that was, for me, and I think that was our global war on democracy.

01:42:22 Speaker_02
whether it's Ukraine or whether it's in Israel and China, and clearly what their intent for China is on Taiwan, and all that's coming, and that's really what's under assault.

01:42:32 Speaker_02
It's undeniable that democracy is under attack, and that's why I'm like, hey, we gotta stand and we gotta push back against that.

01:42:39 Speaker_02
And now, and like, hey, we need to have a secure border, so let's put everything together, and we reached that, we actually reached that, and it took months, it literally took months.

01:42:49 Speaker_03
But give me your utopian version of it. Like, let's assume that you could just get this passed. What would you do? What would you do to secure the border, but also provide a pathway to people that want a better life?

01:43:03 Speaker_02
It's only going to have to be a negotiating way that's palatable to both sides.

01:43:07 Speaker_03
I understand that, but what would you do if you knew you could just get something through without this negotiation? What do you think could be done? What's the best version of it? What's the utopian version for John Fetterman?

01:43:20 Speaker_02
Well, again, I think eventually, if you are living your best lives, and you're following the law, and you really just showed up because, hey, I have no path for a life that I would want for my kids. To me, that's very American.

01:43:37 Speaker_02
And remember what's inside the Statue of Liberty. It's like, send us our tired, huddled masses too. It wasn't just, hey, send in the PhDs and those kinds of things. I mean, that's what really made our nation.

01:43:52 Speaker_02
The steel industry, the steel industry, you know, in my part of the state, that came from it was European. It was all kinds of immigrants. They all came in. They couldn't build the houses fast enough. And that was all foreign labor.

01:44:06 Speaker_02
And they a lot of them were sacrificed because it was an incredibly dangerous business. in the steel industry. And that built our nation, and that became part of our society. And that's really every kind of wave in that.

01:44:20 Speaker_02
And to me, America has to be open and a path for anyone that's playing by the rules, because the group that you're from, or that you're part of, You all started the same kind of a process. It's inevitable. That's the enduring truth.

01:44:35 Speaker_02
And that's what made America special and that made us strong.

01:44:39 Speaker_03
I agree with you. So, but what could physically be done to secure the border? I mean, the wall was sort of dismissed during the Trump administration, but it was also discussed during the Obama administration.

01:44:50 Speaker_03
Even Bill Clinton talked about the importance of having secure borders. What could be done physically to secure the border?

01:44:59 Speaker_02
Yeah, well, again, because that becomes like a third rail. We can't talk about this or… But let's just – I understand that politically, but let's just assume that that's not an issue.

01:45:11 Speaker_03
What would you want to do?

01:45:14 Speaker_02
It's like I would want to make sure that we first we have to acknowledge the truth.

01:45:19 Speaker_02
It's like immigration has been an issue because America is an amazing country and they're coming from broken countries where they've all recognized that there's not a meaningful path for them to have a quality of life.

01:45:31 Speaker_02
And they're willing to risk their lives. And sometimes they even drown. And it's like I can't imagine. turning, turning, like, could you imagine turning your children over to a coyote?

01:45:41 Speaker_02
And you know, they're gonna, you know, go like, like, if you're trying to leave, imagine I like, hey, in Pennsylvania, it's like walking to North Carolina with your kids on your back. I mean, it's like, these are desperate kinds of situations, right?

01:45:54 Speaker_02
And it wasn't an invasion in that sense, it was just people wanting to have a part of the American dream. And acknowledging where that's at, and it needs to have a path.

01:46:03 Speaker_02
Otherwise, you're going to have to round up, and that's not realistic, and there's not the resources, and that's going to be incredibly disruptive, and it's going to be damaging economically as well, too.

01:46:14 Speaker_02
So how do you provide a pathway while also securing... And so America, in my respect...

01:46:20 Speaker_03
How do you provide a pathway while also securing the border?

01:46:26 Speaker_02
Well, to me, I think we can chew gum and walk at the same time on this. And it's not going to be perfect. It's going to be messy. And it's not going to be- Right, but what would that look like?

01:46:39 Speaker_02
Whether there's actually a barrier or hiring thousands and thousands of more agents and whatever that it takes on that. And it's like the best border deal in that situation is the best one that can pass.

01:46:55 Speaker_02
Because otherwise, I, you know, like, boy, if I could wake up with a perfect head of hair, or, you know, I could, you know, it's like, you know, but it's, it's like, you know, practicing the possible.

01:47:05 Speaker_02
And we were as close as we've ever gained in years and years. And that never came into play.

01:47:12 Speaker_03
I understand what you're saying, that it has to pass. But what I'm saying is, imagine that wasn't the case, what could be done?

01:47:21 Speaker_03
Like if we could all agree, we put politics aside and say, you know what, everything John Fetterman is saying makes total sense. We have to put that. We do need a pathway for these people. It is a beautiful part of America.

01:47:34 Speaker_03
The reason why people come here in the first place is because it's the land of opportunity. But yet we also have to keep Venezuelan gangs and prisoners from coming across and murderers and gang members and cartel. Yeah.

01:47:46 Speaker_02
And we have to we have to weed them out and we have to we have to deport them. You know, we absolutely. It's like this is.

01:47:52 Speaker_03
So how do you find them and how do you deport them?

01:47:56 Speaker_02
What's that?

01:47:56 Speaker_03
How do you find them and how do you deport them?

01:47:58 Speaker_02
Well, again, that's just like taking some kind of an inventory of like who's actually here on this. And we have to figure out who's actually here on those kinds of a thing.

01:48:06 Speaker_02
And there are going to be, you know, statistically, that's a fact that out of X million people, for example, you know, it's a fact that statistically that some that thinks terrible things are going to be perpetrated by those things.

01:48:22 Speaker_02
And, you know, statistically, in some sense, that Native Americans, you know, like, not the Native American citizens, you know, and the criminality, if anything, the criminality is slightly higher, you know, in immigration communities as well.

01:48:41 Speaker_02
And some of the most pro-pro-American kinds of views, that's projected in those kinds of communities. I mean, just like the community that brought my wife and their family to this country. And that's kind of where we're at.

01:48:57 Speaker_02
And I think what we're seeing now in this cycle, there are more and more Latinos that are changing their views on some of those. They're like, hey, we do need a secure border on that. It's not necessarily assumed that

01:49:10 Speaker_02
Because you are a member of a demographic that that it's it has to it's all it's not necessarily Consistent that it's going to be strong blue kinds of but we all want safety, right?

01:49:21 Speaker_03
We all want safety. We all want to minimize crime Everyone so you want to secure border to keep criminals from coming over here That's the major impediment.

01:49:36 Speaker_02
Of course. And a secure border with more and more resources put on that. But it's impossible to make sure that, of course, you're going to have members of the immigration community that are going to commit kinds of terrible kinds of crimes.

01:49:52 Speaker_02
And those are going to be talked about in the popular media as well. It's undeniable. And I mean, they're incredibly tragic and it's a fact. And that's actually the truth of the American story. Immigration made our nation.

01:50:08 Speaker_02
and there were hard truths and we have a hard truth right now and we need to have a secure border and we have to find a way to celebrate our immigrations and the kinds of what immigrations and the contributions that they made to this nation and also to weed out or to minimize the kinds of negative kinds of things and those kinds of resources because we can't possibly support

01:50:30 Speaker_02
an unchecked kind of a situation that we had, and I described that. If you had 300,000 people showing up at the border, well, that's the side of Pittsburgh, you know, in a month. Like, where are they going to go?

01:50:41 Speaker_02
You know, how are we going to give them an American dream already? Because they're all going to need certain kinds of resources. And that should never be controversial to say that's not sustainable.

01:50:52 Speaker_02
And if we want for every immigrant their American dream, it's impossible if it's unchecked like that. And it shouldn't be controversial to anyone politically.

01:51:04 Speaker_03
No, it's just reasonable. What you're saying is reasonable. What could be done and who do you think is going to do a better job to boost our economy?

01:51:17 Speaker_02
Well, I think it's undeniable too. And I'm certainly not going to discount some of the experience of some people that have been hit by eggs or other things or inflation. But right now, our economy right now, it's really it's the world's

01:51:36 Speaker_02
Envy throughout all those things by any metric.

01:51:39 Speaker_02
It's our unemployment the stock market and you know the hundreds of thousands of new jobs that are being created through it all those things and our Inflation now has been kind of eased back into the check, but it's undeniable that there was an incredible

01:51:57 Speaker_02
inflation that hit certain kinds of families hard through those things.

01:52:01 Speaker_02
And I think that the next kinds of wave, whether it's AI or those other kinds of innovations, whether that it's green energy or those kinds of a thing, that's going to continue to juice our economy.

01:52:16 Speaker_03
Well, AI is a big fear, right? Because AI is going to come with automation and automation is going to come with removing jobs.

01:52:23 Speaker_02
That is a challenge. On my walk here, well, I didn't walk here, but I saw a Waymo. A Waymo drove by me and I'm like, wait a minute, there's no one in there. No one in there. There was no one in that car. Did you see the traffic jam? Yeah.

01:52:34 Speaker_02
That's the first time I've ever seen a car and had literally no human was in that vehicle. And I was like, wow.

01:52:41 Speaker_03
There's a bunch of them around Austin and there was a traffic jam in Austin where they all got together in an intersection and no one knew what to do. All the robots were just like clogging up this intersection.

01:52:52 Speaker_02
Yeah. Like a lot of that came from Pittsburgh too. And you would see those kinds of cars, but it always had a human in there. But that was the first time I saw like a robot car driving around in Austin.

01:53:04 Speaker_02
And yes, that creates, there's a lot of dislocation that's possible. And that's just the beginning.

01:53:08 Speaker_03
It's going to be shipping. It's going to be truckers. I mean, that was a big issue with the Longshoremen and the Teamsters that were going to go on strike. Yeah, please have some more water.

01:53:20 Speaker_02
Thank you.

01:53:21 Speaker_03
You're welcome. I mean, that was a big part of one of their demands was that they see what's going on in China. They see that they're using automation to completely control shipping yards, that it's all done with machines and computers now.

01:53:38 Speaker_03
And this is going to displace a lot of people.

01:53:40 Speaker_03
This is something that Andrew Yang talked about in depth when he was running for president, because he was talking about the need for some kind of universal basic income to provide people with money and food and housing, because jobs are going to be non-existent in a lot of different sectors, a lot of different markets, a lot of different things that have traditionally been done by people, specifically driving.

01:54:03 Speaker_03
Driving is going to be a gigantic one. It's all going to be done by computers.

01:54:08 Speaker_02
Yeah, well, I mean, universal guaranteed income, I'm not sure. I don't know because you're going to have to have a lot of resources to provide a lot of that. And that creates all kinds of other issues and dynamic. But I'm not afraid of technology.

01:54:24 Speaker_02
But it's also acknowledging that there are going to be kinds of changes in those things.

01:54:29 Speaker_02
And I'm a big believer in technology takes us into a more productive kinds of economy, and they're going to help solve some of the challenges that we have in our society for those kinds of things.

01:54:40 Speaker_02
But I think we have to find the perfect balance that we don't stifle innovation, but we also have to remember that there are going to be people that might be left behind or they're going to struggle.

01:54:51 Speaker_02
I mean, hey, I was mayor for 13 days and I live in a community that was left behind by some of those things. And now the steelworkers, the steelworkers, I live across the street from the steel mill.

01:55:03 Speaker_02
And then it was announced that Nippon was buying U.S. Steel. And basically, all those steel workers, they were done. They used euphemism saying, well, we're going to honor current labor deals.

01:55:16 Speaker_02
That's a euphemism saying, as soon as that's up, you're done. And then that's going to be, you know. thousands of union jobs.

01:55:24 Speaker_02
And if you think it's going to be easy for those men and women to pull down six figures or those kinds of an income, it's like, you know, how insensitive to say, well, hey, learn coding or whatever. It's like, well, hey, it's no, it's not.

01:55:39 Speaker_03
Coding's useless anyway. With AI, learning to code's gonna be useless.

01:55:43 Speaker_02
Yeah, exactly. That's how quickly things change. It's basically kind of like a fuck you, like good luck kind of thing.

01:55:50 Speaker_03
Well, it's a dumb fuck you, too, because even when they said learn to code, like that was like, you know, they're saying, hey, you can learn to code. I'm 55. I'm not gonna learn how to read.

01:55:59 Speaker_03
But here's the thing, even if you did, that's how quickly things change. Even if you did, now they're telling kids, learning coding in universities,

01:56:07 Speaker_03
is not necessarily going to be a pathway to a job because all coding is going to be done by artificial intelligence. Yeah.

01:56:13 Speaker_02
Well, but, but, you know, I, they never even told us that they were going to sell that. And then a staffer sent me a picture on CNN saying that they're selling UST. I'm like, fuck that.

01:56:24 Speaker_02
And so I just went up on my roof and I had a video saying, hey, I promise I'm gonna do anything I can to jam that up. And it's like, that's what we did. And we worked with the White House and then suddenly all of that got jammed up.

01:56:36 Speaker_02
And suddenly, I'm so surprised, wink on wink, but Nippon found extra billions of dollars to make the kinds of upgrades to secure a future for those facilities in the Mon Valley. And to me, it's about following the union way of life.

01:56:52 Speaker_02
You know, to me, steel is national security. And to me, if you turn your back on the working union families, those are really hard to replace those things. And so for me, two things are true at the same time. Our economy has evolved.

01:57:12 Speaker_02
But when we have an opportunity to stand for the union way of life, and we can't ever just outsource our steel industry like that. I refuse to do that.

01:57:25 Speaker_02
And that's why we're in that situation right now, that it's like, hey, that's what's true about some of these industries.

01:57:32 Speaker_03
One of the things that I was reading that was really crazy, and I'd love for you to find out how much of this is accurate, Jamie. One of the things was this guy was explaining how scrap metal in the United States is shipped to China.

01:57:47 Speaker_03
where they make things with it instead of making things here. And then we buy what they make with our scrap metal, which seems to me kind of insane. The death of American manufacturing is a significant problem that we faced.

01:58:03 Speaker_03
And it was really highlighted during COVID, right, where there wasn't ships coming in because everything was kind of locked down for a while. And people realized like, hey, so much of what we need particularly computer chips and medicine.

01:58:18 Speaker_03
So much of what we need is being made overseas.

01:58:22 Speaker_02
I agree. And that's why Congress came together and President Biden led the whole chips legislation. And it's like, we've got to make shit in America. And it's like, of course, the future is in those kinds of industries and those things.

01:58:38 Speaker_02
So we have to protect the American economy for that thing. And that's a bipartisan kind of a push for that. And COVID, that relieved a lot of vulnerabilities. It's like, where a lot of these things come from?

01:58:59 Speaker_02
But going forward on that, it's like we can never just surrender that American manufacturing. We can't assume and we can't allow that to turn completely outsourced.

01:59:12 Speaker_03
No, it would be horrible and it would be nice to bring things back.

01:59:15 Speaker_03
And it's also, you know, one of the things we've been discussing a lot is that so many of the things that we need today, like particularly phones, are being made in an unethical way, like where we would never allow the working conditions that exist in these factories overseas

01:59:32 Speaker_03
where American corporations are having their products made in a way that you would never legally be able to do in America, and yet they're doing this just to make more money.

01:59:42 Speaker_02
Yeah, well, I mean, let's also talk about rare earth stuff. The Chinese have strategically just snapped up that market. I mean, that's a significant security issue. We're going to have to address that.

01:59:58 Speaker_02
And thankfully, we have identified some large deposits. I think it was Nevada, but rare earth kinds of minerals.

02:00:05 Speaker_02
I mean, that's a serious security issue because the new economy and a lot of the new technology is going to depend on those kinds of incredibly—I think a lot of kinds of minerals that some people have never even heard in their life, have no idea what that even—why that's important.

02:00:20 Speaker_03
Right. And then oil as well. I mean, we have significant oil reserves in the United States. Apparently we have more oil than other countries do. It's just a matter of accessing it.

02:00:29 Speaker_03
So are you in favor of drilling for oil and fracking and all these different things to- Yeah, 100%.

02:00:36 Speaker_02
And that's what's also true, is especially what happened after Russia invaded. And it was very clear that Europe had have Russians kind of by the short hairs that a lot of their Europe was they were dependent on some of the Russian gas.

02:00:56 Speaker_02
And that's a fact, too. And, you know, it's also it's also what's true is that fossil fuels are part of our energy stack. You know, our energy has to evolve, whether that's hydrogen or nuclear. Now, even nuclear, that conversation is reemerging.

02:01:15 Speaker_02
You know, I grew up in South Pennsylvania. Maybe you've heard of Three Island. Sure, Three Island. I had to evacuate. when that happened. Did you really? Yeah, I had to evacuate. Wow. Because they could have turned, you know, we could have never returned.

02:01:29 Speaker_02
I mean, that was really tense. Now they're reopening that because Microsoft is going to buy the electricity because now that's going to be nuclear to run the data centers and those things. It's an important conversation.

02:01:43 Speaker_02
So if you are committed, and I think it's, you know, I do believe that you really have to make sure that nuclear is part of that conversation too.

02:01:51 Speaker_02
because zero kinds of emissions, and that's dependable kinds of energy that doesn't depend on the wind or the sun. But ironically, some people pretend that you have to have a conversation.

02:02:05 Speaker_02
But for the foreseeable future, fossil fuels are part of our stack. And for me, energy security is very important. national security. I mean, if we can't power our economy, then it's a significant risk for our economy and our American way.

02:02:28 Speaker_02
And now, I think we're a net exporter of energy. So I think that's a good thing. I think that's a great way to be. And it's being honest about that and the path forward.

02:02:42 Speaker_02
And I think everything has to be on the table because we have to have a portfolio that produces the kinds of energy that we're gonna need to power our economy.

02:02:52 Speaker_03
Another significant issue that a lot of people are concerned about is government interference in online censorship and what was exposed during the Twitter files that the FBI had contacted the original owners of Twitter and prevented them or instructed them that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation, was trying to get

02:03:17 Speaker_03
certain accounts ban that we're talking about kovat vaccines the dangers of side effects and what the actual research was showing and that this was a significant interference in the First Amendment and that these corporations

02:03:32 Speaker_03
that were running these social media companies were being directly influenced by the federal government. And they were using this power to silence people from speaking out against certain things.

02:03:43 Speaker_03
This is very concerning to a lot of people, this idea that the government would infringe on our ability to be whistleblowers, to expose issues that have been hidden from the American people because of greed and money and politics.

02:03:59 Speaker_03
What are your thoughts on that?

02:04:02 Speaker_02
Well, of course, I mean, I'm a free speech kind of person. And I think social media, it's kind of difficult to control.

02:04:12 Speaker_02
There's a difference between misinformation or just outright lying, or it's an agenda of a foreign nation that's trying to sow all these kinds of sentiments and those kinds of things. And it's kind of difficult to police all those things.

02:04:29 Speaker_02
And it's a lot of, It's an ongoing kind of a situation. But I'm always going to try to err on the side of free speech. And then there's incredibly more and more kinds of platforms, just like one I'm on right now, talking about these kinds of things.

02:04:44 Speaker_02
And I'm not clutching my pearls if there's having conversations that I may or may not agree or disagree on what's being talked about those things. But I think people are also, there's also a level of responsibility to discern what you're hearing.

02:05:00 Speaker_02
It's like, I think that's true, or I think that's trash, or it's like those kinds of thing. And just because always asking myself, in what I'm read, is that just true? Or is there a perspective? Where is it coming from?

02:05:11 Speaker_02
Who's behind those kinds of a thing? So, I mean, it's a difficult kinds of what's the appropriate kind of balance, but it's absolutely, it's also a fact that there are bad actors behind

02:05:25 Speaker_02
some of those kinds of conversations or some of those kinds of misinformation as well too and absolutely. incitement, incitement is not free speech, you know, and encouraging people for violence or those kinds of a thing.

02:05:40 Speaker_02
I mean, it's against the law.

02:05:43 Speaker_03
It's dangerous. Yeah. But what the fear is that the government was interfering when you had 51 former intelligence agents that were testifying that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation,

02:05:56 Speaker_03
when it seems pretty clear that they knew that to not be true, and that Twitter actually listened to these people, and they did block that, and it did probably have a significant impact on the 2020 election.

02:06:09 Speaker_02
Yeah. Well, but the other thing that had a significant impact was in 2020, I forget his name, but he had to investigate, you know, Clinton's about the emails. Yeah. Like, you know, two weeks out, that was like the ultimate October surprise as well.

02:06:24 Speaker_02
And that undeniable, that had a significant impact as well, too.

02:06:27 Speaker_03
That was the 2016.

02:06:28 Speaker_02
Yeah. It absolutely, it absolutely did as well, too. So, I mean, that's why there's both sides and they have agendas to suppress some kinds of a thing or to bring something to the front.

02:06:39 Speaker_02
And it's undeniable that it can have an impact on that as well, too. I never went down either of those rabbit holes, whether it was the Clinton emails or if it was the Hunter Biden's kind of laptop.

02:06:50 Speaker_02
But it hasn't really changed overall the dynamic that in our cycles, the last three cycles, it's really it's about For me, it's about a referendum on what we want, a vision for America. Is it a Trump kind of a vision, or do we have an alternative?

02:07:07 Speaker_02
And I've always been very clear it's going to be incredibly close, and it's going to be incredibly, at times, very divisive. And here we are now, and it's still back to a coin toss.

02:07:18 Speaker_02
And I've always predicted that it would be, you know, even back to 2016, because, you know, we're really going to have a lot settled out before this election. It's going to take America in a very two stark and distinctive kinds of directions.

02:07:31 Speaker_03
What do you think about Elon Musk's idea of creating a government efficiency agency?

02:07:39 Speaker_02
Well, hey, I flagged when Musk got involved. I flagged that. Anyone can look online, I can say that. It's like, well, you know, endorsements and surrogacy doesn't really amount for much. It doesn't count for much a lot and sometimes.

02:07:57 Speaker_02
But I mean, that was a significant and he's getting involved and he's showing up at those kinds of events. I mean, in some sense, I've said this publicly, that he's even a bigger kinds of star than Trump can be.

02:08:12 Speaker_02
And for some people in Pennsylvania, like that's Tony Stark. He's involved in undeniably kinds of important things like SpaceX, or he was one of the original charter, he was involved in the charter of Open IA. He was involved in that, too.

02:08:30 Speaker_02
So, I mean, that's significant.

02:08:32 Speaker_02
And I don't agree with some of his views on politics, but it's undeniable that he can move the needle in some sense of convince some people that it's like, hey, if he says that he's the right choice for president, that that's going to resonate in some

02:08:50 Speaker_02
in some circles in Pennsylvania. And I've I've worn that and acknowledging it. It's just like that. That's it's just like, hey, I know people and they admire him.

02:09:03 Speaker_02
And you may not agree with his politics, but you really it's impossible to ignore that he is going to have a level of of an impact on that. Yeah.

02:09:14 Speaker_03
But what do you think about the idea of trying to make the government more efficient and that this hasn't been audited before?

02:09:20 Speaker_02
And of course I hey, I'm open to any kinds of ideas and all those kinds of a thing on all of that One side doesn't have a monopoly on good ideas or important kinds of issues that that are Matt that are matter to them so and it's like

02:09:38 Speaker_02
the choices and the kinds of things and how he's chosen to participate, especially and very personally in Pennsylvania. I'm like, hey, here's where we are. That's part of the dynamic here. You know, calling it out and acknowledging that.

02:09:51 Speaker_02
I'm not moving against that. I'm not criticizing whatever. It's just like, hey, it's happening.

02:09:56 Speaker_02
So and that I think that's part of why things continue to get tighter and and that that's that's kind of here We where we are Well, I think what a lot of people are excited about with Trump is this possibility of change The the Elon Musk addition is one of them or RFK jr.

02:10:12 Speaker_03
Is another one this idea of making America healthy again? Removing additives from foods that have shown to be toxic. They're illegal in other countries and I mean, this is, I think, a significant issue that shouldn't be a partisan issue.

02:10:26 Speaker_03
This should be something that we all should be concerned with. Why do we have ingredients in our food that is illegal in a bunch of European countries because they found out that these things are dangerous?

02:10:37 Speaker_02
I agree. You know, go to McDonald's in, like, the UK. You know, the French fries has three ingredients. Potatoes, salt, and I think maybe oil. And then look at what's in America's side on that. It's much different.

02:10:51 Speaker_02
I support that, but if anything, more of, and I know your city that we're in now, Austin has an amazing food kinds of scene.

02:10:59 Speaker_02
And again, if anything, more of the crunchy, more liberal side, we're on part of the whole organic kinds of a thing and more impurity and things. I don't think that's an issue.

02:11:09 Speaker_02
And honestly, I don't think that that's gonna be the kind of mantle that somebody like RFK Jr., that's not his.

02:11:17 Speaker_02
So I think having a more pure and safe and abundant kinds of food in in our country I absolutely support that and you know, I'm I'm selective what I what I feed I feed my children I mean when we were you know, when I was a kid, it was like Velveeta, you know, like hey now we have real cheese or did you ever have like ecto cooler like that green like Antifreeze kind of color of high C and some of the kinds of foods that that we had when I was a kid

02:11:47 Speaker_02
That would be unthinkable kinds of now. And I think the quality of our food and kinds of more impure, I think that's been an ongoing conversation. And organic can't become elitist. It can't be too expensive. And I fully support making it more and more

02:12:09 Speaker_02
More pure and more safe on that. And more available. I would absolutely, I would celebrate if I could buy the same French fries that you get in the UK. I think you don't need more than three ingredients.

02:12:22 Speaker_03
I have a buddy of mine who lives in Australia. He came over to America and he loves quarter pounders in Australia because he said quarter pounders in Australia It's grass-fed meat.

02:12:32 Speaker_03
That's just fried with cheese and a bun and he said he got a quarter pounder over here He's like, what the fuck is this? He said tastes like shit. It was just it was Bland and it didn't taste royal with cheese.

02:12:46 Speaker_03
I don't know what they call it in Australia But he said it's grass-fed beef you get like, you know, they're not even feeding their cows grain

02:12:54 Speaker_02
Well, you know, a lot of the grass-fed beef in our nation are coming from Australia. Which is crazy. Yeah, that's a fact. And I'm very pro-American ranching.

02:13:07 Speaker_03
Well, not only that, it's really fucked up because you could make it a product of America if you butcher it here.

02:13:14 Speaker_03
So if you import cattle from Australia, say, and then you bring it to America, and then you cut it up and then package it, because you've cut it up and packaged it, it's now a product of America. So you could write that on the label.

02:13:30 Speaker_03
You know, I had Will Harris, who runs White Oak Pastures, which is a regenerative farm. This guy spent 20 years and untold dollars changing an industrial farm that his family had and turning it into a regenerative farm.

02:13:45 Speaker_03
And in doing so, provided people with a much more natural and healthy choice. And he's also done a great job of exposing these practices.

02:13:57 Speaker_02
Yeah, I mean, grass-fed beef. I mean, I think that's very, in some sense, I mean, that absolutely supports better health. I mean, I followed, before you even appeared on your podcast, Sean Baker, you know, like a carnivore.

02:14:16 Speaker_02
And, you know, even those kinds of insights helped me personally and allowed me to kind of drop some weight through all those things. You know, it's like that's an important conversation too.

02:14:26 Speaker_02
It's like, you know, and but but Democrats some people think that we're Declared a war on on hamburgers and beef, but we're definitely gonna lose that They're gonna lose that if that really becomes part of that and I I don't think that's Democrats I think that's very wealthy people that have a financial interest in feeding people fake meat

02:14:48 Speaker_03
That's what I think it is, and I think they've captured the system.

02:14:51 Speaker_02
I said it pains me to agree with DeSantis, you know, because they passed the ban on that in Florida. It pains me to agree with him. But it's like, I mean, I would never feed that slop to my kids.

02:15:04 Speaker_02
When you can buy, you know, quality American grass-fed American beef, like, I mean, that's what I purchased. I used that at Costco.

02:15:13 Speaker_02
I buy the three pack of it, and my oldest son, he knows how to prepare his own ribeye, and he makes that a part of, I think it's a healthy kind of diet.

02:15:30 Speaker_03
Yeah, for sure. What other issues do you think we should discuss before we wrap this up? Is there anything else that's on your mind that you think is significant that needs to be discussed?

02:15:42 Speaker_02
Oh, before you wrap up, I think we have a situation, whether it's the situation on Israel, or there's a lot happening about the election right now, but it's really a strange place in our nation right now, but I promise you it's going to be, depending on whenever people hear this conversation, our world's going to be about to change or maybe has changed.

02:16:10 Speaker_02
And so I just hope though, I just hope though, that we're gonna be able to respond in a way for an order kinds of transfer of power and we are gonna be heading into a more peaceful and a more productive and collaborative kind of direction throughout that.

02:16:28 Speaker_02
But we're in an incredibly divisible place right now. And I just want to be part of a conversation to make sure that we can be more constructive.

02:16:39 Speaker_02
But it's right now we're kind of, it's a difficult place right now and we're coming down to a coin toss election.

02:16:47 Speaker_03
Yeah, I agree. I hope we can all relax and work together cooperatively. Yeah. Well, listen, man, thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. Thank you for taking the time to come here and talk.

02:17:01 Speaker_03
It's been great to get to know you and have a conversation with you.

02:17:05 Speaker_02
Oh, hey. Well, hey, thank you for having me. As a fan, it's great to kind of visit. And so thanks for having me.

02:17:12 Speaker_03
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02:17:41 Speaker_03
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